HISTSEX Archives 5-10 Dec 2003
© Lesley Hall and list contributors
From: "Donna Larsen" <ladydonna85@hotmail.com>
Sent: Fri, 05 Dec 2003 03:58:30 +0000
To: histsex@topica.com
Subject: Recommondation request
I am doing a independent study on "The Critical Study of Consent in personal
relations. One aspect I want to look at is the way cults work, because they
get or appear to get a person's consent to do what they do. Can anyone
recommend a good book to read on cults and the way they work. I am looking
for something that is not necessarily derogatory toward them but more or
less neutral but honest about how they work.
From: "Michel Faber" <michelfaber@ablach.freeserve.co.uk>
Sent: Fri, 05 Dec 2003 09:44:18 -0000
To: histsex@topica.com
Subject: Re: [histsex] Recommondation request
Donna Larsen wrote:
> I am doing a independent study on "The Critical Study of Consent in personal
> relations. One aspect I want to look at is the way cults work, because they
> get or appear to get a person's consent to do what they do. Can anyone
> recommend a good book to read on cults and the way they work. I am looking
> for something that is not necessarily derogatory toward them but more or
> less neutral but honest about how they work.
There is, or was, an academic periodical called 'Journal For The Scientific
Study Of Religion'. I have a couple of photocopies of articles from this journal
(on the Children of God and Jim Jones's People's Temple) each of which is
supported by substantial refs/bibliographies. If you have access to a good
academic library and they have copies of the JFTSSOR, you might find
articles on exactly the topic you require, or the bibliographies might point you
to appropriate books.
Best wishes,
Michel Faber
michelfaber@ablach.freeserve.co.uk
From: Lesley Hall <lesleyah@primex.co.uk>
Sent: Fri, 5 Dec 2003 10:32:45 GMT
To: histsex@topica.com
Subject: Talk at Dr Johnson's House - "Sex With Boswell"
Lunchtime Gallery Talk - 1.15pm Tuesday 9th December
2003
Julie Peakman, author of Mighty Lewd Books - The
Development of Pornography in Eighteenth Century
England, will give a a short talk at The Tyranny of
Treatment exhibition at Dr Johnson's House. In "Sex
With Boswell" she explores the private lives of
Georgian gentlemen and contemporary attitudes towards
sexuality.
The Dr Johnson's House Museum is located at 17 Gough
Square, London, EC4A 3DE (Tel: 020 7353 3745). There
is an admission charge to the museum (£4 for adults)
but no additional charge to join the tour.
From: RobD <robjld@webone.com.au>
Sent: Fri, 05 Dec 2003 22:52:39 +1100
To: <histsex@topica.com>
Subject: Burton quote
Somewhere Richard Burton made comment along the lines English women did not
need to be subjected to clitoridectomy because their minds had been
padlocked shut by ignorance of sex.
Can anybody direct me to the precise source of the quote?
Thank you.
Robert Darby
Canberra
Australia
From: Haiduk Press <haidukpress@yahoo.com>
Sent: Fri, 5 Dec 2003 04:50:57 -0800 (PST)
To: histsex@topica.com
Subject: Symbolic rape
Hello,
I wonder if anyone would have information on the custom of carrying one's bride over the threshhold. It dates back to Roman times, when it presumably evoked the rape of the Sabines. But do any of the ancient writers state that explicitly?
Thanks in advance,
Andrew Calimach
From: "Ivan Crozier" <ivancrozier@hotmail.com>
Sent: Fri, 05 Dec 2003 13:13:47 +0000
To: histsex@topica.com
Subject: RE: [histsex] Symbolic rape
Dear Andrew Calimarch,
It is not an ancient source, but may direct you to some: the issue is
discussed by Havelock Ellis in Love and Pain and by Fustel de Coulanges, La
Cite Antique, both with reference to marriage by capture.
There are many other refs in Ellis about marriage by capturefrom other
ethnic groups. See also McLennan or Westermarck on this ethnological
aspect--especially as they both might make comparisons with the Roman
material, as they do with regard other topics.
Cheerio, Ivan
Ivan Crozier,
Lecturer,
Science Studies Unit,
University of Edinburgh,
21 Buccleuch Place,
Edinburgh EH8 9LN,
Scotland
ivan.crozier@ed.ac.uk
ivancrozier@hotmail.com
From: Richard Sha <rcsha@american.edu>
Sent: Fri, 5 Dec 2003 09:59:27 -0500
To: histsex@topica.com
Subject: Re: [histsex] Recommondation request
this book has nothing to do with cults, but everything to do with consent. Carole Pateman The Sexual Contract. Pateman examines the extent to which social contract theory finesses the social contract by eliding that with a sexual contract--she thus queries the extent to which consent is truly consent.
From: David Sonenschein <sonend@yahoo.com>
Sent: Fri, 5 Dec 2003 11:31:31 -0800 (PST)
To: histsex@topica.com
Subject: Re: [histsex] Recommondation request
"Cult" panics have had a considerable history in the US (with similar
streams in the UK), the most recent waves beginning in the late 1960s
through the early 1990s. Check any library’s catalog on the subject
and look for entries that deal with "brainwashing" and "deprogramming"
for material relevant to issues of consent. Consent becomes most
problematic when images of seduced youth are central to the concerns,
as they were in the period I mentioned above (see also my _Pedophiles
on Parade_, both volumes for the historical continuities). I’d
recommend a start with the works and surveys by Anson Shupe and David
Bromley that cover reactions to the new religions coming out of the
1960s. Use of the word "cult" already establishes an ideological
marker, just as does the universal application of "abuse" to all
adult-youth sexual relations. It’s hard to imagine a "positive"
article on "cults."
From: "Donna Larsen" <ladydonna85@hotmail.com>
Sent: Sat, 06 Dec 2003 01:39:10 +0000
To: histsex@topica.com
Subject: Re: [histsex] Recommondation request
OF course good recommondation on consent would be appreciated for this
project, Thank you :)
From: "Terrence Lockyer" <lockyert@mweb.co.za>
Sent: Sat, 6 Dec 2003 00:14:51 +0200
To: "History of Sexuality" <histsex@topica.com>
Subject: Re: [histsex] Symbolic rape
Andrew Calimach wrote
: >I wonder if anyone would have information on the custom of
: >carrying one's bride over the threshhold. It dates back to
: >Roman times, when it presumably evoked the rape of the
: >Sabines. But do any of the ancient writers state that explicitly?
I can't answer this directly, but I can say that symbolic rape as a feature
of marriage has been a topic in the past on the Classics-L. There is a
fully searchable public archive of that list (and a few others) on-line at
http://omega.cohums.ohio-state.edu/hyper-lists/
which may help with your question.
G. W. Williams, in the article s. v. "marriage customs, Roman" on p. 928 of
- Simon Hornblower and Anthony Spawforth (edd.), The Oxford Classical
Dictionary. Third edition (Oxford and New York : Oxford UP 1996)
mentions the ritual of carrying the bride over the threshold, but associates
it with the avoidance of "an ill-omened stumble", and has no mention of the
Sabine women at all, nor any reference to an ancient source, although he
does say in general that Plutarch's *Roman Questions* are an important
source for Roman marriage ceremonies. A work in Williams' bibliography that
would possibly be helpful, but which I do not have here, is
- Susan Treggiari, Roman Marriage (Oxford 1991)
The Sabine women as a legend reflecting the practice of marriage as capture
is mentioned on p. 217 of the general survey
- Elaine Fantham, Helene Peet Foley, Natalie Boymel Kampen, Sarah B.
Pomeroy, and H. A. Shapiro, Women in the Classical World: Image and Text
(New York and Oxford : Oxford up 1994)
but no connection is made to Roman marriage ritual.
If you like, I could post your query to Classics-L. Since that is
publicly-archived, I could post any replies here.
Terrence Lockyer
Johannesburg, South Africa
From: "Terrence Lockyer" <lockyert@mweb.co.za>
Sent: Sat, 6 Dec 2003 23:49:05 +0200
To: "History of Sexuality" <histsex@topica.com>
Subject: Re: [histsex] Corrigendum: Symbolic rape
On Sat, 6 Dec 2003, I cited
: G. W. Williams, in the article s. v. "marriage customs,
: Roman" on p. 928 of
:
: - Simon Hornblower and Anthony Spawforth (edd.), The
: Oxford Classical Dictionary. Third edition (Oxford and
: New York : Oxford UP 1996)
The headword of the article is actually "marriages ceremonies, Roman". The
text is unchanged from the same article on pp. 650-1 in
- N. G. L. Hammond and H. H. Scullard (edd.), The Oxford Classical
Dictionary. Second edition (Oxford : Clarendon Press 1970)
although the older edition has some German works that haven't made the
bibliography of the newer.
Terrence Lockyer
Johannesburg, South Africa
From: "Terrence Lockyer" <lockyert@mweb.co.za>
Sent: Sun, 7 Dec 2003 00:56:01 +0200
To: "History of Sexuality" <histsex@topica.com>
Subject: Symbolic rape
Cc: <haidukpress@yahoo.com>
I paste below answers to Andrew Calimach's question from Classics-L.
On Saturday, December 06, 2003 11:55 PM, Allen Koenigsberg wrote
: from an anthropological (vel sim) point of view, isn't crossing
: any new "threshold" (boundary) fraught with peril? In that case,
: the carrying of the bride OVER the limen prevents a bad luck
: (price) from attaching to her. Her passage is eased and ill omens
: are diverted
:
: I think it has little to do with Sabine women per se - that's just an
: etiology looking for a circumstance.
On Saturday, December 06, 2003 11:57 PM, Lora Holland wrote
: Sounds like something Plutarch might address in Roman Questions.
: I don't have time to look for it, however...
Finally, and most helpfully for Andrew Calimach's original question, on
Sunday, December 07, 2003 12:29 AM, James P. Holoka wrote
: Yes, it's at Plut. _Quaest. Rom._ 271D: "Why do they not allow
: the bride to cross the threshold of her home herself, but those who
: are escorting her lift her over?" Three possibilities: (1) It is "because
: they carried off by force also the first Roman birdes and bore them
: in in this manner ...." (2) "They wish it to appear that it is under
: constraint and not of their own desire that they enter a dwelling
: where they are about to lose their virginity." (3) it is "a token that
: the woman may not go forth of her own accord and abandon her
: home if she be not constrained, just as it was under constraint that
: she entered it ...." (LCL).
So it seems that Plutarch at least connected the practice with the Sabine
women. LCL is the Loeb Classical Library, some of whose Plutarch is on-line
at the Perseus Project. This text (the *Roman Questions*) is not, however.
Terrence Lockyer
Johannesburg, South Africa
From: Wrdynes@aol.com
Sent: Sun, 7 Dec 2003 11:21:28 EST
To: histsex@topica.com
Subject: Mock marriages
Cc: Wrdynes@aol.com
For an article I am writing that is tangential to the current discussion of
same-sex marriage, I am looking for instances of mock marriages (male-male) in
which one of the two participants dresses up as a woman and becomes the "wife"
of the other, without any (or much) intention of a permanent simulation of
heterosexual marriage.
I am interested in examples from the last few decades, rather than Nero and
his congeners. As far as I know, Boswell's "brother-making" rites did not
involve cross-dressing.
About thirty years ago, as I recall, a French-Canadian male couple flew to LA
to get married. It was all a kind of charivari, and never aspired to legal
status. Then there were those rumors about the wedding of Rock Hudson and Jim
Nabors (apparently a spoof to get people to come to a party in San Francisco).
According to Jean Cocteau Picasso introduced him to Gertrude Stein as his
"fiancee." (Regrettably, there is no record of the celebration of the nuptials,
though there was a honeymoon trip to Rome.) Just now we have had Harvey
Fierstein as "Mrs. Claus."
Lesbian parallels are welcome too.
Are there any instances of a heterosexual couple dressing up as a gay or
lesbian couple?
Best, Wayne
From: "Terrence Lockyer" <lockyert@mweb.co.za>
Sent: Sun, 7 Dec 2003 21:55:53 +0200
To: "History of Sexuality" <histsex@topica.com>
Subject: Roman thresholds again
Cc: <haidukpress@yahoo.com>
An off-list suggestion from a member of the Classics-L has sent me to
Petronius' *Satyricon*, specifically the "Dinner-Party of Trimalchio" (Sat.
26-78), which reveals a few Roman beliefs about thresholds.
At Sat. 30.6, as the hero and his companions enter the dining-room, they
encounter at the door a slave posted there to warn guests to enter
right-foot-first (the left being considered ill-omened), and there is an
exaggerated description of their fear lest any one of them break the
injunction. Here is the note from pp. 63-4 of
- Martin S. Smith (ed.), Petronii Arbitri Cena Trimalchionis (Oxford :
Clarendon Press 1975)
"it was thought lucky to start a journey or an enterprise by stepping off
with the right foot, avoiding a stumble, which was regarded as particularly
ill-omened if it occurred on the threshold. Vitruvius (iii. 3) has this
superstition in mind when in his instructions for building the stairway up
to a temple he advises the architect to provide an odd number of steps, so
that the worshipper will be able to use his right foot both for the first
step on the stairs and for entering the temple itself. Trimalchio, however,
is made to surpass ordinary superstitiousness by having someone bark out
*dextro pede* ["On the right foot!"] at the entrance to his dining -room."
Later (Sat. 72.10), as the hero and his companions try to slip away from the
party, they find their way barred, and are told that no-one may leave
Trimalchio's house by the same way s/he entered. This may be another
instance of his superstitions about thresholds, as suggested on p. 189 (n.
8) of
- J. P. Sullivan (tr., intr., nn.), Petronius: The Satyricon, and Seneca:
The Apocolocyntosis. Revised edition (Harmondsworth : Penguin Books 1986)
Given the presence of these kinds of beliefs, I would hesitate to see the
origin of brides' being carried over the threshold specifically in the rape
of the Sabines, whatever Plutarch may have thought (and even he is not
dogmatic). I also wonder if there may not be some significance attached to
the bride and groom entering their married home simultaneously.
Of course, one really feels for the poor groom who evidently had to carry
his bride, be careful to put his best (i. e., right) foot forward, not
stumble, and goodness knows what else!
Terrence Lockyer
Johannesburg, South Africa
From: Wrdynes@aol.com
Sent: Sun, 7 Dec 2003 15:43:46 EST
To: histsex@topica.com
Subject: Re: [histsex] Roman thresholds again
Cc: Wrdynes@aol.com
A proverbial instruction found in several Mediterranean cultures holds that
one's house should have only one entrance. This precept was enforced at the NY
appliance store, Crazy Eddy's (the owner was Lebanese), presumably to avoid
employee theft.
I always thought that the origin of the idea was this: so that the husband,
arriving home early, could catch an adulterer without his being able to leave
by another door. But it might be that malefactors in general cannot leave by
the door they enter, and are thus trapped. I would hate to rely on this as
burglar insurance, though.
Anyway, comonamyhouse! There's only one door.
Best, Wayne R. Dynes Hunter College
From: Lesley Hall <lesleyah@primex.co.uk>
Sent: Sun, 7 Dec 2003 21:37:26 +0000
To: histsex@topica.com
Subject: RE: Burton quote
RobD wrote:
>
> Somewhere Richard Burton made comment along the lines English women did
> not
> need to be subjected to clitoridectomy because their minds had been
> padlocked shut by ignorance of sex.
>
> Can anybody direct me to the precise source of the quote?
I've been flicking through my unindexed copy of _Love, War and Fancy_ to
see if I could find this, but can only come up with the following.
On comparative practices of controlling women:
(in section 'Woman, the Domestic Calamity')
'Practically throughout the civilised world there are only two ways of
treating women. Moslems keep them close, defend them from all kinds of
temptations and if they go wrong, kill them. Christians place them on a
pedestal, the observed of all observers, expose them to every danger and
if they fall accuse and abuse them instead of themselves.... Women can
be thoroughly guarded only by two things, firstly their hearts and
secondly by the Spanish padlock.'
While on female ignorance, in section 'The Physical Woman':
'In England some women are idiots enought not to tell their daughters
what to expect on the wedding night.'
Neither quite what you are looking for I fear, but the system of
organisation is such that it is not easy, lacking an index, to track
down any particular passage.
Lesley Hall
lesleyah@primex.co.uk
website: http://homepages.primex.co.uk/~lesleyah
From: "Dannielle Orr" <dorr@central.murdoch.edu.au>
Sent: Mon, 8 Dec 2003 11:06:54 +0800
To: <histsex@topica.com>
Subject: Re: [histsex] Mock marriages
hello Wayne,
I've just been reading a new book that whilst maybe a bit short on references, is absolutely fantastic on photos!
It has lots of pictures from this last century in America, of women's mock marriages in all-women education institutions and (potentially) lesbian mock marriages.
The reference is,
Catherine Smith & Cynthia Greig
_Women in Pants: Manly Maidens, Cowgirls & Other Renegades_
published by Harry N. Abrams
2003
The photos are a delight. I noticed from somewhere in the book (the foreword, perhaps?) that the photos are from the authors' collection. It might even be worth contacting them to see if they have any male homosexual cards/ photos. Hope this helps,
cheers,
Dannielle Orr
Wayne wrote:
Lesbian parallels are welcome too.
Are there any instances of a heterosexual couple dressing up as a gay or
lesbian couple?
From: Stephen Morris <smmorris58@yahoo.com>
Sent: Mon, 8 Dec 2003 05:57:02 -0800 (PST)
To: histsex@topica.com
Subject: Re: [histsex] Mock marriages
-I remember something like this in something. Was it
*Don We Now Our Gay Apparel*?
Will try to check and see if it was that or something
else....
Stephen
-- wrdynes@aol.com wrote:
> Histsex: discussion list for historians of
> sexuality. List homepage
> http://homepages.primex.co.uk/~lesleyah/listinf.htm
> For an article I am writing that is tangential to
> the current discussion of
> same-sex marriage, I am looking for instances of
> mock marriages (male-male) in
> which one of the two participants dresses up as a
> woman and becomes the "wife"
> of the other, without any (or much) intention of a
> permanent simulation of
> heterosexual marriage.
>
> I am interested in examples from the last few
> decades, rather than Nero and
> his congeners. As far as I know, Boswell's
> "brother-making" rites did not
> involve cross-dressing.
>
From: franz.eder@univie.ac.at
Sent: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 11:32:26 +0100
To: histsex@topica.com
Subject: Publications/Bibliography on the History of Sexuality
Dear Colleagues,
I would be very interested in including all YOUR PUBLICATIONS on
the history of sexuality in Europe, the U.S. and Canada from 1700 to
2003 to the "Bibliography of the History of Western Sexuality" (
http://www.univie.ac.at/Wirtschaftsgeschichte/sexbibl/ ). The new
edition of this bibliography will be published at the beginning of the
next year.
Please email the relevant information to me at the following address:
franz.eder@univie.ac.at . Literature and references should include all
the standard details (full information can be found at the above-named
website).
(If you have sent your titles during the last 3 months we have already
added them to the second edition of the bibliography.)
Kind regards,
Franz Eder
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
* ao. Univ. Prof. Dr. Franz X. Eder
* Department of Economic and Social History
* University of Vienna
* Dr. Karl Lueger-Ring 1
* A-1010 Vienna
* Telephone: +43-1-4277-41321 or -41301
* Fax: +43-1-4277-9413
* E-Mail: franz.eder@univie.ac.at
* Homepage: http://www.univie.ac.at/Wirtschaftsgeschichte/_Eder.html
From: "Lesley Hall" <lesleyah@primex.co.uk>
Sent: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 15:28:18 -0000
To: "Histsex:For historians of sexuality" <histsex@topica.com>
Subject: Journal of Interdisciplinary Gender Studies: reviewers and referees required
The Journal of Interdisciplinary Gender Studies - produced by the School of
Humanities, University of Newcastle (Australia) - is seeking to update its
database of suitably qualified people willing to write book reviewers or to
referee a paper.
Those interested should e-mail their name and contact details, plus a mini
CV that lists their research interests, teaching areas and any publications
to the contact below.
Cricos provider number 00109J
Christine Cheater
School of Humanities
Ourimbah Campus
University of Newcastle
Ourimbah, 2258
Ph: + 61 02 4349 4557
Fax + 61 02 4348 4078
Email: christine.cheater@newcastle.edu.au
From: David Greenberg <dg4@nyu.edu>
Sent: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 19:57:30 -0500
To: histsex@topica.com
Subject: Re: [histsex] Publications/Bibliography on the History of
Sexuality
My sexuality-related publications, along with many not related to sexuality, are on my vita, which is attached. It is a WordPerfect file. David Greenberg