HISTSEX ARCHIVES: 1-20 FEB 2000
© Lesley Hall and list contributors
From: "Paul Marks" <pkmax@bold.net.au>
Subject: New Member
Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2000 13:03:17 +1030
Hi,
I am a student from Adelaide, South Australia. My main interest is the =
relationship between the law and sexual minorities, in particular, =
transsexual and intersexed individuals.
I am aware of the 'known' case law that covers this area (for a full and =
exhaustive review see Greenberg, Julie A. 1998. Defining Male and =
Female: Intersexuality and the Collision Between Law and Biology. =
Arizona Law Review 41 (2):265-328.) but wondered if there are other =
sources that cover 'older' cases, or at least reports, in this area.
I found some of the information about the 'history of the clitoris' =
relevant (how big is a clitoris?) particularly in view of the Western =
medical practise of clitoral recision (a form of FGM in the name of =
aesthetics?) It is not my intention to deride the practise entirely but =
rather to question the issue of informed consent for medical procedures. =
It seems clear to me that the aim is to render invisible those born with =
ambiguous physical sexual features.=20
Paul
------
Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2000 18:16:45 -0500
From: David Nicholas Harley <David.N.Harley.4@nd.edu>
Subject: New member introduction
I am a historian of medicine, teaching the history of early modern
European science and ideas in the History Department at the University of
Notre Dame, a major Catholic university in Indiana. I also teach graduate
students in History and Philosophy of Science and undergraduates in Gender
Studies, and I am a Fellow of the Reilly Center for Science, Technology and
Values. I shall be treating matters of sex and gender in a course on the
history of medicine during the Fall 2000 semester, and I hope in the near
future to teach a course on the social and intellectual history of sex,
birth and gender.
My principal research interests related to this list lie in the areas of
medical discussions of gender and gynaecology from the Greeks to the
Enlightenment, and in early modern court cases. I have published articles
on midwifery, forensic medicine, and maternal breastfeeding, and I have
given conference papers on childbirth, rape, bastardy, and infanticide. I
am particularly interested in the gendering of the brain and am currently
working on a paper about hysteria and somewhat related afflictions of the
womb and brain, such as greensickness and lovesickness, for a conference to
be held at Ohio State University in April 2000: "Bodies of Literature:
Histories of Bodies". This is part of a long-term project towards a fully
historicized psychology of the emotions and personality development.
David Harley,
Dept. of History,
University of Notre Dame,
Notre Dame, Indiana 46556
tel.: 219-631-7789
______
Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2000 08:59:19 -0500
From: psychhst@tiac.net (Lloyd deMause)
Subject: Genital Mutilation
>I found some of the information about the 'history of the clitoris'
>relevant particularly in view of the Western medical practise of clitoral
>recision (a form of FGM in the name of aesthetics?) It is not my intention
>to deride the practise entirely but rather to question the issue of
>informed consent for medical procedures.
It was of course a widespread historical circum-Mediterranean and African
practice of mothers to chop off their little girls' genitals because
otherwise, it was believed, they would be "too sexual." You can read about
this and other routine sexual abuse of children practices in history in my
article "The Universality of Incest" available in full with complete
scholarly references at <www.psychohistory.com>
Lloyd deMause
psychhst@tiac.net
___________________________________________________________________
Subject: Seeking Bret Hinsch
Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2000 11:16:51 -0800
From: "andrei-f" <andrei-f@goplay.com>
Hello,
I am trying to reach him, or have him reach me to discuss publishing
matters. Any help would be very appreciated.
Andrei
___________________________________________________________________
Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2000 17:48:33 +0100
From: Gert Hekma <hekma@pscw.uva.nl>
Subject: Re: Genital Mutilation
Dear friends,
this is a new site that discusses genital mutilation in males:
<http://www.foreskin.net>
Sincerely,
Gert Hekma
___________________________________________________________________
From: "Lesley Hall" <lesleyah@primex.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Intersexuals
Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2000 20:04:20 -0000
A good study, which you may know already, of late C19th early-C20th =
medical perceptions is Alice Dreger's recent book on hermaphrodites, =
which talks about what was done surgically to babies (and sometimes up =
to adolescents) with ambiguous genitalia. This 'tidying up' probably =
accounts for many more cases than ever reached the courtroom.
Lesley Hall
lesleyah@primex.co.uk
website http://homepages.primex.co.uk/~lesleyah
___________________________________________________________________
Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2000 07:46:52 -0800
From: Karen Duder <kduder@UVic.CA>
Subject: Re: Intersexuality
Dear Paul,
Have you looked at the web site for the Intersex Society of North America?
I believe the URL is http://www.isna.org. They have a great deal of
information on the site, including a bibliography. I don't know how much of
it relates to law, though. There are a great many references to the
scientific study and definition of intersexuality, and to the surgical
"treatment" of it. One book you might want to read, if you haven't already
done so, is Suzanne Kessler's _Lessons from the Intersexed_ (Rutgers UP,
1998). Again, not much on law, but useful context on surgical mutilation of
intersexed individuals.
Karen
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Karen Duder PhD Programme
Department of History Clearihue B206
University of Victoria Phone (250) 721-7387
P.O. Box 3045 Email kduder@uvic.ca
Victoria, B.C. V8W 3P4 Dept. Phone (250) 721-7382
CANADA Dept. Fax (250) 721-8772
"Any measurement must take into account the position of the observer.
There is no such thing as measurement absolute, there is only
measurement relative. Relative to what is an important part of the
question." Jeanette Winterson, _Gut Symmetries_
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
___________________________________________________________________
Date: 1 Feb 2000 21:05:36 -0000
From: "Histsex:For historians of sexuality" <histsex-owner@listbot.com>
Subject: Welcome to new members and admin stuff
Histsex:For historians of sexuality - http://homepages.primex.co.uk/~lesleyah
Welcome to our recent flurry of new members. As usual, I am inciting you
(and anyone else who has not done so) to introduce yourselves and your
interests in history of sexuality to the list.
As the RCPT messages problem seems to have been cleared up, I will take
the list off moderation once more. I remind posters, however, to be
responsible - please observe standards of civility in debate, and make
sure that you are not posting personal messages to the entire list!
Finally, I draw list members attention to the History of Sexuality
Research Interests Register. Anyone who would like to be listed on this
register should contact me directly (i.e. not via the list) at
lesleyah@primex.co.uk with the details you would like included.
Best wishes to all
Lesley
histsex-owner@listbot.com
lesleyah@primex.co.uk
___________________________________________________________________
Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2000 18:57:54 -0500
From: Cathy Moran Hajo <cathy.hajo@nyu.edu>
Subject: Re: Summer Internships at the Margaret Sanger Papers Project
S U M M E R I N T E R N S H I P S I N N E W Y O R K C I T Y
The Margaret Sanger Papers Project, a documentary editing project located
in the History Department at New York University, would like to announce
the availability of summer internships for 2000. The Project is currently
offering internships working on its book edition of Sanger's papers,
electronic edition, and indexing its microfilm edition.
Interns will be exposed to all facets of the Sanger Papers Project's work,
and will undertake analysis on historical documents and conduct directed
research in libraries, archives, and the Sanger Project's own holdings.
Unfortunately, because of budget constraints, we are unable to offer paid
internships, but several of our former interns have been able to apply the
work conducted for the Project towards credit at their universities.
A complete description of the internships, including application and
housing information is available at the Project's web site
(http://www.nyu.edu/projects/sanger/intern.htm).
We encourage anyone with an interest in American, European or women's
history, archives and historical editing, and public history to consider
applying for this internship. Please post this at your institutions.
For those without access to the Internet, information can be obtained by
writing to me at the Sanger Project. Thanks very much.
--
Cathy Moran Hajo
Assistant Editor/Assistant Director
The Margaret Sanger Papers Project
Department of History
New York University
53 Washington Square South, #501
New York, NY 10012-1098
cathy.hajo@nyu.edu
(212) 998-8666
(212) 995-4017 (fax)
Visit our web site at: http://www.nyu.edu/projects/sanger
___________________________________________________________________
From: Mal123nash@aol.com
Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2000 16:55:43 EST
Subject: Re: Urania Manuscripts
Dear List Members,
I'd like to call your attention to a website created for fun but also to
inform. Among other things, the site focuses on the life of Karl Heinrich
Ulrichs, the first known Gay activist:
http://www.angelfire.com/fl3/uraniamanuscripts
With best wishes,
Michael Lombardi-Nash, Ph.D.
___________________________________________________________________
From: "Charles Moser" <docx2@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Topless sunbathing
Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2000 22:48:22 -0800
Dear folks,
This may not be the right place to ask the question, but I do not know
who else to ask.
In Europe on public beaches it is common for women to sunbathe topless,
unlike the U.S. or Canada. Does anyone know when the Europeans began doing
this?
Thanks in advance,
Charles Moser, Ph.D., M.D.
___________________________________________________________________
Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2000 10:05:46 +0000
From: cristina santos <cristina@sonata.fe.uc.pt>
Subject: New Book out
Greetings from Portugal!
I've just received the following information from another mailing list
which will certainly interest some of you:
Hot off the Press:
A Professional's Guide to Understanding Gay and Lesbian Domestic Violence:
Understanding Practice Interventions edited by Joan C. McClennen and John
Guther (with a preface by Claire M. Renzetti). The Edwin Mellen Press,
Lewiston NY (1999)
Arlene Istar Lev and Sundance Lev have an article entitled "Sexual Assault in
the Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual and Transgender Communities"
Cris
______________________________________________________________________
From: The Fawcett Library <fawcett@lgu.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Topless sunbathing
Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2000 11:27:22 +0000 (GMT)
On Tue, 1 Feb 2000 22:48:22 -0800 Charles Moser
<docx2@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
> Histsex:For historians of sexuality - http://homepages.primex.co.uk/~lesleyah
>
> Dear folks,
>
> This may not be the right place to ask the question, but I do not know
> who else to ask.
>
> In Europe on public beaches it is common for women to sunbathe topless,
> unlike the U.S. or Canada. Does anyone know when the Europeans began doing
> this?
>
I seem to remember it becoming more or less accepted on
Mediterranean beaches in the early to mid 1970s, and
spreading - although I believe that a lot of Scandinavian
and German beaches were fairly relaxed earlier than that,
and St. Tropez had a reputation in the 1960s. I can vouch
for at least some US / Canadian anxieties on this point -
in the late 1980s a British colleague visiting Florida was
reprimanded by a hotel pool life guard for letting her
daughter, aged 9, bathe topless.
Having said which, in Britain at least I don't think the
practice is at all widespread - I think it varies
considerably from beach to beach. This may, of course,
have something to do with the climate ... though
Scandinavia is no warmer.
David Doughan, Reference Librarian
The Fawcett Library (The National Library of Women)
fawcett@lgu.ac.uk
http://www.lgu.ac.uk/fawcett/main.htm
Phone: 0171 320 1189
Fax: 0171 320 1188
_________________
"Gentlemen and dogs not allowed beyond
the vestibule" (Sign at Pioneer Club, London, ca. 1892)
______________________________________________________________________
Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2000 12:08:13 +0000 (GMT)
From: RM CLEMINSON <R.M.Cleminson@Bradford.ac.uk>
Subject: Hispanic lesbian and gay culture conference 5 May 2000
I am pleased to announce the following conference:
DEPARTMENT OF MODERN LANGUAGES, UNIVERSITY OF BRADFORD, BRADFORD, WEST
YORKSHIRE, BD7 1DP, UK
HISPANIC LESBIAN AND GAY CULTURE
THIRD ANNUAL CONFERENCE
One-day conference
Friday 5 May, 2000
CALL FOR PAPERS
Contributions can be on any areas of Hispanic and Latin American Lesbian,
gay, queer culture and should be of thirty minutes duration.
Abstracts (of approximately 100 words) should be submitted by 31 March
2000 to:
Dr. Richard Cleminson
Department of Modern Languages
University of Bradford
Bradford, West Yorkshire
BD7 1DP
tel: +1274 234595
fax: +1274 235590
email: r.m.cleminson@bradford.ac.uk
______________________________________________________________________
Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2000 20:29:47 -0500
From: Cristina Nelson <crn@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Topless sunbathing
Dear Charles,
I have seen commentaries on this as far back as the early 1920's. I would
think, though, that even earlier there were those who advocated the
fresh-air-and-sun regimen. Unfortunately I can't point you to a source - I
just recall reading something to this effect. I also seem to recall (again,
unsubstantiated) that the Russians were big on sunbathing nude.
Cristina Nelson
___________________________________________________________________
From: "Matthew Johnson" <trekdrop78@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Topless sunbathing
Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2000 20:26:02 PST
thought some biblio might also be useful:
Eder, Ernst Gerhard. "Sonnenanbeter und Wasserratten: Koerperkultur und
Freiluftbadebewegung in Wiens Donaulandschaft 1900-1939." Archiv fuer
Sozialgeschichte 33 (1993): 245-276.
Krabbe, Wolfgang R. Gesellschaftsveraenderung durch Lebensreform.
Goettingen: Vandenhoeck & Ruprecht, 1974.
Parmlee, Maurice. Nudism in Modern Life: The New Gymnosophy. New York:
Alfred A. Knopf, 1931.
Toepfer, Karl. Empire of Ecstasy: Nudity and Movement in German Body
Culture, 1910-1935. Berkeley: University of California, 1997.
-- Matt Johnson
___________________________________________________________________
From: "Matthew Johnson" <trekdrop78@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Topless sunbathing
Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2000 20:22:02 PST
dear all -
the German "free body culture" (Freikorperkultur, or FKK) movement
originated in the late nineteenth century. various sects generally
advocated completely nude recreation for both men and women as a way of
improving overall physical and mental health. Some were sex-segregated,
some were not. of course, nude bathing was popular in germany and elsewhere
(esp. among the working class); FKK adherents referred to those who fell
outside their movement as "Wildbader" and often scorned them because they
did not share the same ideological grounds. FKK, to an extent, legitimized
nude bathing (and presumably also topless bathing) through a pseudo-medical
discourse in areas where its influence was most strongly felt
(german-speaking areas of europe, the netherlands and scandinavia, which
today are still probably most tolerant of this practice). but it is hard to
say just how influential FKK was, since a folk tradition of nude or
partially nude bathing had already existed in some of these areas.
-- Matt Johnson
______________________________________________________________________
From: "Ivan Raykoff" <lisztomania@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Topless sunbathing
Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 08:33:34 GMT
Re: the question about nude sunbathing in Europe...
>Does anyone know when the Europeans began doing this?
Perhaps it has already been mentioned, but the Germans are and have long
been enthusiastic nudists, esp. on summer beaches. The term for the
"movement" is FKK (Freikoerperkultur, literally "free body culture") and
there ought to be something informative written already on the
history/significance of the movement, etc. I believe it was not encouraged
during the Nazi era, but probably does originate in the early 20th or late
19th century; it's certainly an accepted part of the culture today, in
beaches and parks during the summer as well as with mixed saunas at sports
centers and occasional (male or female) nude days at public swimming halls.
Ivan Raykoff
___________________________________________________________________
Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 12:41:36 -0200
From: Ligia Carvalho <lcarvalho@alpha.ciet.senai.br>
Subject: New Member
Hello,
I'm Lígia Carvalho, from Brazil. A few days ago, I found out about this
list and couldn't help but signing in. Actually, my work doesn't deal
very close to issues related to sexuality. My dissertation is about a
Methodist Episcopal Church, South, mission that arrived in Brazil around
the turn of last century. But, still, I'd like very much to join the
discussions on the list. My main interests are on religion, marriage,
same-sex relationships and women's studies.
As you may have already noticed, I'm not an English speaker, so forgive
me my sometimes confused text. You have no idea how long it took me to
write this short paragraph!
Bye,
Lígia Carvalho
___________________________________________________________________
Date: 3 Feb 2000 15:32:43 -0000
From: "Histsex:For historians of sexuality" <histsex-owner@listbot.com>
Subject: Unsubscription
All messages from list normally include unsubscription details in the
footer: i.e. to send an empty e-mail to histsex-unsubscribe@listbot.com.
Please do not send unsub messages either to the list or to me.
Lesley Hall
histsex-owner@listbot.com
___________________________________________________________________
From: "Charles Moser" <docx2@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Topless sunbathing
Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 07:51:14 -0800
Dear folks,
My question on topless sunbathing in Europe seems to have provoked some
discussion. While I am well aware of the Naturalist/Nudist movement in
Europe, a similar movement has existed in the US and Canada with opposite
results. The acceptance in Europe and the hostility in the US towards
topless sunbathing seems surprising. I believe that totally nude sunbathing
would not be tolerated in Europe anymore than it is in the US, so this
appears to be an issue of women's breasts. Of note, the popularity of adult
entertainment consisting of women dancing topless or nude does not seem
appreciably different in Europe and the US.
Take care,
Charles Moser
___________________________________________________________________
Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2000 14:16:54 -0800 (PST)
From: "A. G. McLaren" <amclaren@UVic.CA>
Subject: Re: Topless sunbathing
An equally interesting question is when men were allowed to
appear bare-chested on public beaches. In some Canadian cities it
apparently was not legal until the the 1930s.
Angus McLaren
___________________________________________________________________
Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 16:11:11 +0000
From: "Sam Pryke" <PRYKES@hope.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Topless sunbathing
Charles --
No, you are still wrong. Mixed totally nude sunbathing is tolerated in certain places in most
European countries. Speaking from holidaying experience it happens without much of a fuss in
at least Spain, Portugal, France, Croatia and Greece, usually on certain beaches, certain areas of
beaches away from the immediate entrance points on to them, i.e. the 'family areas'. Note that
these places -- with the possible exception of France -- would probably be considered fairly
sexually conservative European countries, compared to the more liberal Northern ones
mentioned in earlier correspondence on this topic.
I know topless and nude sunbathing in the USA is so rare (really I suppose a private thing) that
Americans find it difficult to believe that it is normal in Europe, but it is. Even Britain has a
couple of nude beaches -- though the weather probably makes it more a statement for British
naturists to take all of their clothes off, rather than a pleasurable experience in itself.
SAM PRYKE
___________________________________________________________________
Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 17:34:34 +0100
From: Lutz Sauerteig <sauertei@ruf.uni-freiburg.de>
Subject: Re: Topless sunbathing
I agree with Sam. In Munich, for example, there is a park in the centre of
the city (called "Englischer Garten") where many mixed totally nude are
sunbathing. Of course, as Munich by large is Catholic, there have been some
discussions about this during the late 1980s. I do remember the story of a
nude male who had swam down the small river in the park. On his way back he
took the bus and was arrested because he could not show his busticket.
Today, it is more or less accepted to have nude sunbaths in the Englischer
Garten and I assume that more or less ever larger German city has a special
area where people take nude sunbathes.
Lutz Sauerteig
___________________________________________________________________
From: along@crt.state.la.us (Alecia Long)
Subject: RE: Topless sunbathing
Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 10:34:29 -0600
Actually, there are several totally nude beaches in the United States.
I've been to the one in Miami several times and know of others in
California. The one in Miami is no big secret -- there are signs put up by
the municiaplity at the entrances and the perimeters of where nude
sunbathing and swimming are allowed. The population of the beach is a real
mixed bag -- mostly gay men, some of them cruising, but there are also
straight couples, lesbian couples, and, while some of the women only go
topless, I've seen many who sunbathe in the nude. I'm not sure how the
beaches work in California, but at least one municiaplity in the United
States recognizes and allows for the practice.
Alecia P. Long, Historian
Louisiana State Museum
1-800-568-6968/along@crt.state.la.us
___________________________________________________________________
From: Kazetnik@aol.com
Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 13:24:32 EST
Subject: Topless bimbos
I know it has an alliterative appeal and was meant to be received with
levity, but is 'bimbos in the buff' really acceptable discursive practice
even amongst such urbane and cultured company as this? And what of himbos? In
buff? Or sarong?
Chris White :-^)
___________________________________________________________________
From: The Fawcett Library <fawcett@lgu.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Topless sunbathing
Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 17:52:03 +0000 (GMT)
In my limited experience of clothes-optional beaches
(mainly French Atlantic coast), the situation in at least
part of Europe is more complex than has been suggested.
I get the impresion that French local authorities vary
considerably in their attitudes. Toplessness is pretty
well tolerated, but if you go bottomless on the wrong beach
(or even the wrong section of beach) I believe you may run
the risk of being "verbalisé", while on large stretches
especially of "plages sauvages", anything goes - literally;
middle-aged ladies in floral dresses are at least as common
as bimbos in the buff. On the other hand, if there
really are gay men and lesbians cruising, they must be
pretty discreet about it - the general impression of these
beaches is very much of the family: mum, dad and the kids
in various stages of undress. Not much sex (if any).
Anyway, the varying dress codes of French Atlantic beaches
is probably worth a study in itself; in some places like
Arcachon there is no nudity, but a degree of what used to
be called body fascism. Being less than physically perfect
is obviously a social gaffe.
David Doughan, Reference Librarian
The Fawcett Library (The National Library of Women)
fawcett@lgu.ac.uk
http://www.lgu.ac.uk/fawcett/main.htm
Phone: 0171 320 1189
Fax: 0171 320 1188
_________________
"Gentlemen and dogs not allowed beyond
the vestibule" (Sign at Pioneer Club, London, ca. 1892)
___________________________________________________________________
Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 16:37:31 -0500 (EST)
From: Cathie Carrigan <cmcarrig@iupui.edu>
Subject: Age-gap relationships
Hi all,
I'm going to be researching some issues surrounding relationships with a
significant age difference, particularly younger women/older men. Aside
from the advice of the Greek philosophers that men marry younger women,
does anyone know of some good sources? I know that the Oneida community
in the 19th century had some specific rules that paired younger and older
people of both sexes. I'm also interested in the perception of women as
"trophies" and how women in relationships with an age difference negotiate
the stereotypes. In the opinion of the list, is this an issue peculiar to
the United States?
Thanks in advance,
Cathie
___________________________________________________________________
Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 12:07:05 -0500 (EST)
From: Michael Sibalis <msibalis@wlu.ca>
Subject: Re: Topless sunbathing
Nude sunbathing is tolerated not only on many beaches, but even in the
heart of some German cities. I have seen numerous nude sunbathers in the
English Garden in the heart of Munich and along the riverbank in the
centre of Berlin. None of the strollers who pass by seems the least
offended. In France, on the other hand, although nude sunbathing is
common enough on public beaches, I have never seen it in the parks.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Michael D. Sibalis
Associate Professor
Department of History
Wilfrid Laurier University
Waterloo, Ontario
CANADA N2L 3C5
(519)-884-0710 ext. 3141
msibalis@wlu.ca
___________________________________________________________________
From: "Matthew Johnson" <trekdrop78@hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: Topless sunbathing
Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 16:39:02 PST
re: sanctioned nude beaches in the united states: yes, they do exist, but
not to the same extent as in europe. much nude sunbathing in both europe and
the u.s. is an unsanctioned, unorganized activity (e.g. in city parks); some
municipalities do reserve sections of park or beach - or tacitly accept nude
sunbathing in a particular area (Nieuwe Meer, Amsterdam; Fire Island, Long
Island, New York).
sanctioned or not, nude bathing areas are almost invariably paired with gay
male public sex. this makes for rather strange beachfellows: in zandvoort,
the netherlands (home to the longest officially nude beach in europe), one
can spot a family of dedicated naturists enjoying a picnic while not fifty
feet away men are having sex in the dunes. the issue of gay public sex also
often leads, unfortunately, to the closure of municipally-sanctioned nude
beaches. this happened only last summer in Cape May County, New Jersey
(USA): both naturists and gays were incensed after a municipality closed the
only sanctioned nude beach on the Jersey shore (the name of which escapes
me, sadly).
as to Charles Moser's question about the role women's breasts play in all
this: are you thinking about incidents like a protest in Portland, OR, last
year where women rollerbladed topless through the downtown to protest the
'sexist' city ordinance which forbids women to remove their tops in public
in the interests of 'public decency,' while men are free to remove their
tops at will? admittedly, events like this point up a cultural (and legal)
difference between europe and north america in the way various localities
define 'decency.' I can't even begin to theorize as to the origins of this,
apart from what's already been discussed. anyone else have any ideas?
-- matt johnson
___________________________________________________________________
Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 16:01:30 -0800 (PST)
From: techno toy <technotoy@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Topless sunbathing
A couple comments on the nude sunbathing issue:
German friends of mine told me that there sense was
that in the sixties and even the seventies it was
still pretty unusual to sunbathe in the nude, and that
institutions like the Englisher Garten were not yet
well accepted. This might suggest that there is a
discontinuity between the current nude sunbathing and
the early twentieth-century tradition.
I also think that the belief in American puritanism is
sometimes exaggerated. I think most American urban
areas have some place where one can sunbathe in the
nude. I'm thinking of Black's Beach in San Diego, one
of the parks outside of Portland, Baker Beach in San
Francisco. Most of this is driven by the gay
population, which perhaps deserves some comment too.
=====
Robert Tobin
Conrad-Blenkle-Str. 58
10407 Berlin Germany
(030) 4280 3109
___________________________________________________________________
From: "Charles Moser" <docx2@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Topless sunbathing
Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2000 22:20:09 -0800
>as to Charles Moser's question about the role women's breasts play in all
>this: are you thinking about incidents like a protest in Portland, OR, last
>year where women rollerbladed topless through the downtown to protest the
>'sexist' city ordinance which forbids women to remove their tops in public
>in the interests of 'public decency,' while men are free to remove their
>tops at will? admittedly, events like this point up a cultural (and legal)
>difference between europe and north america in the way various localities
>define 'decency.' I can't even begin to theorize as to the origins of
this,
>apart from what's already been discussed. anyone else have any ideas?
>
Dear folks,
I will try to clarify my question. I am well aware that there are
totally nude beaches in both the US and Europe, they are a minority. While
some of these are on public lands, most are secluded. In Europe (my
experiences are in Spain, France, Belgium, and the Netherlands) ALL the
beaches I went to had a significant number (often a vast majority) of
topless women. These were beaches that were clearly public, that were not
secluded at all. Often hotels lined the beaches, the sunbathers could often
be seen from the streets that bordered the beach. In the US, while there
are some people flaunt the law, most individuals would not sunbathe topless
even if legal.
The question is what happened in Europe or what did not happen in the US
and Canada that has led to this difference in attitudes concerning topless
sunbathing (and I assume nudity)? Clearly there are more prudish people in
Europe and more liberal people in the US, but the general social mores seem
different. A related question is, when and how did it become acceptable for
men to sunbathe "topless?" Early bathing suits covered men's chests.
Take care,
Charles Moser
___________________________________________________________________
Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2000 09:35:46 GMT
From: dcsouden@nildram.co.uk (David Souden)
Subject: Re: Age-gap relationships
There has been some work done on large age-gap marriage relationships in
late medieval England. Because some tenancies for land or houses were held
on a number of lives, i.e. the tenancy ended when the nth person named or
nth generation died, then the line could be carried on for much longer by
older men marrying very young women who then remarried much younger men who
then remarrried young women ...
The late Jack Ravensdale wrote at least one paper on this. I can check the
reference; Richard Smith has edited works that also deal with the subject.
DS
____________
David Souden
43 New Road
London
E1 1HE
t: 0171-377 2028
f: 0171-377 0041
m: 0370-471940
e: dcsouden@nildram.co.uk
___________________________________________________________________
Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2000 06:17:17 EST
From: markin@patriot.net
Subject: Re: Topless sunbathing
Histsex:For historians of sexuality - http://homepages.primex.co.uk/~lesleyah
> The question is what happened in Europe or what did not happen in the US
> and Canada that has led to this difference in attitudes concerning topless
Don't know about Canada, but the US seems originally to have been settled
largely by people who left Europe for religious reasons. Speaking as one
who grew up in the "Bible Belt", I've always noted a deepseated
prudishness that seems to go along with religiosity (specifically
Christian) -- and view with dismay the increasing influence of the
fundamentalists.
> different. A related question is, when and how did it become acceptable for
> men to sunbathe "topless?" Early bathing suits covered men's chests.
Another related question: when did men in Victorian times *stop* bathing
(swimming) in the nude? Note that males who actually went in swimming (as
opposed to wading or just playing in the shallow water) did so in the
nude. Deep pools and waters were thus at least informally off-limits to
women, although one does hear the occasional complaint from men about the
occasional women strolling along the male area of the beach (say) and
making comments. (Can't put my hands on a specific citation for this, I'm
sorry.)
> Charles Moser
Mario Rups
markin@patriot.net
___________________________________________________________________
From: "Chris Willis" <chris@chriswillis.freeserve.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Age-gap relationships
Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2000 11:26:04 -0000
Hi!
There were some articles about this in the Guardian not long ago - sorry I
can't remember the exact reference, but their website's seachable and its at
www.guardian.co.uk
Or for a medieval source, how about the Wife of Bath's Tale? :-)
Victorian fiction is full of young women marrying older men, especially
where money's involved. Apparently this was very much the accepted practice
among the UK middle classes. Here's a quote from Mary Braddon's "Eleanor's
Victory" - a middle aged solicitor is wondering about his young wife's
motives for marrying him:
"Did not girls situated as George Vane's daughter had been situated, marry
for money, again and again, in these mercenary days? Who should know this
better than Gilbert Monckton the solicitor, who had drawn up so many
marriage settlements, been concerned in so many divorces, and assisted ad so
many matrimonial bargains, whose sordid motives were as undisguised as any
sale of cattle transacted in the purlieus of Smithfield? Who should know
better than he that beautiful and innocent girls every day bartered their
beauty and innocence for certain considerations set down by grave lawyers,
and engrossed upon sheets of parchment at so much per sheet?"
All the best
Chris
=========================================
Chris Willis
English Dept
Birkbeck College
Malet Street
London WC1E 7HX
Chris@chriswillis.freeserve.co.uk
http://www.chriswillis.freeserve.co.uk/
=========================================
___________________________________________________________________ Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2000 21:58:04 +0000
From: Javier Pulido Biosca <raices1@prodigy.net.mx>
Subject: Re: Topless sunbathing
I believe that the discussion on topless and nude sunbathing brings us the
opportunity to see the prejudices arround the naked body. The pseudo
scientific arguments of the health of sunbathing hides the aesthetical
pleasure of the naked body and the beauty of the women's brest. The
"civilized" nude beaches contrast with the natural actitud about the naked
body that the "primitive" cultures has.
Indigenous people in Mexico bath them naked in the rivers and they enjoy
their naked bodies without the European and "civilized" prejudices. They
enjoy the naked body in a very respecful way, but women doesn't like very
much that a non indigenous man watch their bathing, only when the
"extranger" is known and accepted by the community.
What I am trying to say is that "civilized" nude involves a big quantity of
prejudices that indigenous people doesn't have and they take nude bathing
as a very natural actividy, as nude is a natural state of the body.
Javier
> My question on topless sunbathing in Europe seems to have provoked some
>discussion. While I am well aware of the Naturalist/Nudist movement in
>Europe, a similar movement has existed in the US and Canada with opposite
>results. The acceptance in Europe and the hostility in the US towards
>topless sunbathing seems surprising. I believe that totally nude sunbathing
>would not be tolerated in Europe anymore than it is in the US, so this
>appears to be an issue of women's breasts. Of note, the popularity of adult
>entertainment consisting of women dancing topless or nude does not seem
>appreciably different in Europe and the US.
>
>Take care,
>
>Charles Moser
Javier Pulido Biosca
RAICES Project
Coatzacoalcos, Ver. Mx.
raices@geocities.com
raices1@prodigy.net.mx
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acropolis/1029
___________________________________________________________________
From: The Fawcett Library <fawcett@lgu.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Topless sunbathing
Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2000 13:41:51 +0000 (GMT)
On Fri, 4 Feb 2000 06:17:17 EST markin@patriot.net wrote:
> > different. A related question is, when and how did it become acceptable for
> > men to sunbathe "topless?" Early bathing suits covered men's chests.
>
> Another related question: when did men in Victorian times *stop* bathing
> (swimming) in the nude?
I can only speak for Royan (France, Charente-Maritime).
When it was first being developed as a bathing resort in
the mid-19th century, it was apparently normal for men to
bathe naked on the relatively "natural" beaches - but out
of sight of the women. As more women came to Royan, and the
sea front was developed, the naked men found themselves
restricted to one beach only (Conche de Foncillon), and
were even banned from there soon after - the opening of a
new casino nearby may have influenced this. The period in
question is approximately 1860-1885 (sorry, I don't have
reference works to hand). Thereafter, men usually wore
shoulder-to-thigh garments. I think that topless trunks
for men made their uncontroversial appearance after the
First World War, although it was not unknown for men to
wear the old style costumes as late as the 1950s - and not
just at Royan.
There is also the matter of mixed bathing, which was mildly
controversial in Britain as late as the 1920s. Certainly
in the mid-19th century women bathing was seen as
eztraordinary, and tended to attract gawkers, if nothing
worse.
And about bimbos: my apologies. I had thought that list
members would understand the ellipsis I made, i.e. that
this is the sort of stereotype the popular press attributes
to "nudist beaches" with wink-wink-nudge-nudge implications
of steamy eroticism. Now it's possible that I've been
missing soemthing, but in my admittedly limited experience
the "free" beaches of S.W. France are pretty unerotic
places. Anyway, in future I shall try to be more explicit.
David Doughan, Reference Librarian
The Fawcett Library (The National Library of Women)
fawcett@lgu.ac.uk
http://www.lgu.ac.uk/fawcett/main.htm
Phone: 0171 320 1189
Fax: 0171 320 1188
_________________
"Gentlemen and dogs not allowed beyond
the vestibule" (Sign at Pioneer Club, London, ca. 1892)
__________________________________________________________________
Date: Fri, 04 Feb 2000 10:53:49 -0700 (MST)
From: Tim Hodgdon <Tim.Hodgdon@asu.edu>
Subject: Re: Topless sunbathing; colonization patterns of USA
On Fri, 4 Feb 2000 markin@patriot.net wrote:
> Don't know about Canada, but the US seems originally to have been settled
> largely by people who left Europe for religious reasons. Speaking as one
> who grew up in the "Bible Belt", I've always noted a deepseated
> prudishness that seems to go along with religiosity (specifically
> Christian) -- and view with dismay the increasing influence of the
> fundamentalists.
>
> Mario Rups
> markin@patriot.net
List members:
The idea that most Europeans who "settled" in (future) U.S.
came seeking "freedom," either political or religious, is
one of the powerful myths about U.S. history that, while
powerfully reinforced by children's history textbooks,
cannot withstand historical analysis. Indeed, many
religious American colonists bemoaned the fact that the
majority of the population were unchurched; even after
nationhood and the Second Great Awakening, home mission
societies worked hard to convert the sizeable percentage of
the population that didn't give a hoot about Christ. The
myth of American majoritarian religious faith has complex
roots; some of the most important being the experience of
massive immigration of non-Protestants beginning in the
1830s and the Whiggish tendency to interpret the nation's
history through the perspective of the nation's heavily
Protestant elites.
What I've found most interesting about this entire thread is
Charles Moser's observation about the continuing popularity
of what we in this country call "strip joints" in Europe,
despite a somewhat wider acceptance of public nudity there.
This is a subject that deserves careful research, but from
the discussion it is already clear that men's sexual
objectification of women remains strong regardless of the
degree of acceptance of public nudity, and thus cannot be
attributed to "Victorian" "prudery." I would venture the
hypothesis that it persists because sexual objectification
plays such a central role in the reification of masculinity.
That is, "ogling" or "scoping out" women's bodies helps to
reconfirm one's superior status as a man in a
male-supremacist gender hierarchy. This also holds true for
gay and queer men's ogling and scoping-out; fixation on
eroticized "hunkiness," or -- for practitioners of
gender-bending, the eroticized dissonance of, say, biceps
and heels, or breasts and leather -- confirms the viewer's
subjectivity within the social structure of gender
hierarchy.
Tim Hodgdon
Ph.D. candidate
Department of History
Arizona State University
Tim.Hodgdon@asu.edu
__________________________________________________________________
Date: Fri, 04 Feb 2000 13:39:52 -0500
From: David Nicholas Harley <David.N.Harley.4@nd.edu>
Subject: Historicizing prudishness and Victorian nude bathing
Mario Rups wrote:
>Don't know about Canada, but the US seems originally to have been settled
>largely by people who left Europe for religious reasons. Speaking as one
>who grew up in the "Bible Belt", I've always noted a deepseated
>prudishness that seems to go along with religiosity (specifically
>Christian) -- and view with dismay the increasing influence of the
>fundamentalists.
David Harley comments:
There is a danger, in the history of sexuality as in other fields, of
allowing one's views about present matters to colour one's view of the
past, smuggling in unexamined assumptions. The idea that the religious
bigotry that is often visible in US life is the result of religious
immigration is such an assumption. The spurious stress on the Pilgrim
Fathers as the roots of the culture, combined with a widespread belief that
the Puritans were Victorian prudes (with or without Victorian hypocrisy),
does not elucidate modern US beliefs. Attitudes towards sexuality need to
be placed in very specific contexts, rather than being ascribed to all
Christians (or Muslims or Buddhists) everywhere at all times.
Clearly, many Europeans who emigrated to the English-speaking colonies were
seeking toleration of their religious beliefs and practices, but probably
far from the majority, even in the seventeenth century. Were the many
kinds of Catholics who arrived during the nineteenth century seeking
toleration? Most of the conspicuous religiosity in the US is not imported
but homegrown. Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, Pentecostalists, Christian
Scientists, and Seventh Day Adventists have their origin in North America,
as do most of the myriad sects whose churches are to be seen everywhere.
Moreover, the Methodists and Baptists who form the bedrock of the Bible
Belt are a local phenomenon, their fundamentalism imported from the
Northern states where it originated as a reaction to the Enlightenment. As
Christine Leigh Heyrman has shown, this was not a straightforward process
by any means, since the South was an ungodly and patriarchal slaveholding
society. That the Bible Belt now looks like it has always existed is a
sleight of hand that relies on US historical amnesia. American prudishness
comes in several varieties, both local and ideological, and we need to
tease out the distinctions. In the South, the blood relationship between
ex-slaves and ex-masters was conveniently covered by prudery.
Mario Rups wrote:
>Another related question: when did men in Victorian times *stop* bathing
>(swimming) in the nude? Note that males who actually went in swimming (as
>opposed to wading or just playing in the shallow water) did so in the
>nude.
David Harley comments:
Quite recently in Oxford, always the home of lost causes. Parson's
Pleasure on the Cherwell was abolished only a few years ago. Apparently,
foreign tourists (possibly US) objected to the spectacle of elderly
academics exhibiting their naked bodies to the gaze of passing punt parties.
David Harley,
Dept. of History,
University of Notre Dame,
Notre Dame, Indiana 46556
tel.: 219-631-7789
__________________________________________________________________
Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2000 19:14:41 EST
From: markin@patriot.net
Subject: Re: Historicizing prudishness and Victorian nude bathing
> > Don't know about Canada, but the US seems originally to have been settled
> > largely by people who left Europe for religious reasons. Speaking as one
...
> The idea that most Europeans who "settled" in (future) U.S.
> came seeking "freedom," either political or religious, is
> one of the powerful myths about U.S. history that, while
...
> Tim Hodgdon
> Ph.D. candidate
That's why I specified "seems" and "originally". I should know better
than to write *anything* in the wee early hours of the morning after an
all-nighter while I'm in a bad mood. My apologies for lack of clarity
and the obviously shaky "reality" resulting when, in the course of
in-the-mailer editing, the vital bridge joining and denying the direct
link got lost. <sigh>
My thanks to David Doughan and David Harley for the added information re:
nude male bathing in Victorian times. (And my thanks to you, Mr Hodgdon,
and to Mr Harley again for not calling me a blithering idiot outright.
<weak grin>)
Mario Rups
markin@patriot.net
__________________________________________________________________
Date: Fri, 04 Feb 2000 19:33:31 -0700 (MST)
From: Tim Hodgdon <Tim.Hodgdon@asu.edu>
Subject: Re: Historicizing prudishness and Victorian nude bathing
On Fri, 4 Feb 2000 markin@patriot.net wrote:
> My thanks to David Doughan and David Harley for the added information re:
> nude male bathing in Victorian times. (And my thanks to you, Mr Hodgdon,
> and to Mr Harley again for not calling me a blithering idiot outright.
> <weak grin>)
>
> Mario Rups
> markin@patriot.net
Mario: you're welcome. And besides, even if you *did* find
such a powerful myth persuasive, that wouldn't make you a
"blithering idiot." If anyone deserves such a harsh label,
they would have to refuse even to consider other possible
explanations. A certain former president of the USA, who
once declared that catsup was a vegetable, comes to mind. :)
Tim Hodgdon
__________________________________________________________________
From: Swamp1800@aol.com
Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2000 22:23:13 EST
Subject: Re: Topless sunbathing
In a message dated 2/4/2000 8:36:46 AM Eastern Standard Time,
raices1@prodigy.net.mx writes:
<< What I am trying to say is that "civilized" nude involves a big quantity of
prejudices that indigenous people doesn't have and they take nude bathing
as a very natural activity, as nude is a natural state of the body >>
I think Javier has the answer to why nudity did not take in the US. Whites
felt compelled to distinguish themselves from indigenous people and also from
the slaves they brought to the US. Even young house slaves simply were not
dressed by their masters. There's a curious story about Admiral David
Porter's wife. Her husband wrote a memoir of one of his South Sea voyage
making much of the freedom of the Polynesian girls. After he returned, she,
it is said, "eloped" with her nephew, disguised as a Negro. She was dismissed
as crazy, but perhaps there was method in her madness. This was in the 1820s.
I am no expert on this, but Directory fashion with its virtual nudity and
virtual "toplessness", had its day in the US. '"Virtual" is a tricky word,
but I assume that when men simply flocked to the windows to see Jerome
Bonaparte's wife in her typical state of undress (she was a belle from
Baltimore,) that they were actually seeing something. At the same time, the
emotional religious revivals in the US had definite sexual content with all
that shaking going on. My, a boy can stroll through American history with his
hands in his pocket. But that said, American woman in the more modern era,
must have been deterred from practicing nudity because of the American males'
obsession with large breasts. If one's breasts weren't large, one was not
disposed to expose them. If they were large, why cause a riot. In a sense,
assuming that men like to see naked women in public, men have ruined that
pastime on any rational basis first because they had recourse to non-whites
who they encouraged not to be modest, and then, egged along by the media,
they became so obsessed with abnormal breasts that they robbed nudity of what
seems to be its essence in Europe, that it's natural.
Bob Arnebeck
__________________________________________________________________
From: "Matthew Johnson" <trekdrop78@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Topless sunbathing; colonization patterns of USA
Date: Fri, 04 Feb 2000 20:12:20 PST
re: Tim's posting:
I found this statement in Charles Moser's original message strange. Many
bewildered European friends have asked me why the strip joint is such a
peculiarly american phenomenon. i don't believe for a moment that it is
EXCLUSIVELY american (i have seen too many live sex shows in amsterdam to
assume such nonsense), but it does seem to possess a cache here that is lost
on europeans. most of what i have seen in europe does not eroticize the act
of removing clothing (most often it is already removed), but the interaction
of already naked bodies, often in a space where similar interaction is going
on among the spectators (and between spectators and performers - all quite
exciting). admittedly, pretty much all of my experience is among dutch gay
males - i don't know if the same holds true elsewhere in europe or in other
sexual spaces.
then again: does anybody else remember all of those monty python skits from
the early seventies involving male striptease? maybe the europeans (or at
least the british, if we are allowed to call them europeans) have an
unaccounted-for predilection for this sort of eroticism. comments?
-- matt johnson
__________________________________________________________________
From: "Chris Willis" <chris@chriswillis.freeserve.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Topless sunbathing
Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2000 12:04:37 -0000
Hi!
In Kilvert's diary, he mentions being very embarassed when he went swimming
in the nude on a Welsh beach, only to discover that according to the modern
fashion, the other men were wearing bathing costumes. I forget the exact
date - sometime in the 1870s I think
All the best
Chris
=========================================
Chris Willis
English Dept
Birkbeck College
Malet Street
London WC1E 7HX
Chris@chriswillis.freeserve.co.uk
http://www.chriswillis.freeserve.co.uk/
=========================================
__________________________________________________________________
Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2000 15:54:00 GMT
From: dcsouden@nildram.co.uk (David Souden)
Subject: striptease
Matt Johnson wrote: "then again: does anybody else remember all of those
monty python skits from
the early seventies involving male striptease? maybe the europeans (or at
least the british, if we are allowed to call them europeans) have an
unaccounted-for predilection for this sort of eroticism. comments?"
I cannot help thinking that much of this discussion is a bit wayward. Some
thoughts:
1. American culture combines prudery with the absolute opposite. It is
possible to buy porn videos, say, quite readily - yet the mainstream
television culture will hardly permit anything rude at all. (I know - I
produced a series for Discovery with one show on 'love and sex' and had
many battles, ending in the compromise of different versions for Europe and
North America). In the UK there is much less restraint in broadcast
television - a recent example, although seen as exceptional, was the
broadcast about the clitoris in which Lesley Hall was interviewed - yet it
is very difficult to buy or see hardcore pornography legitimately. Classic
'Middle America' seems to be much more prudish therefore than 'Middle
England', yet the notion of liberty and free speech is more embedded in
American culture and so has seen the parallel explosion of pornography
since the 1970s.
2. British audiences do have and enjoy striptease. Pubs with 'exotic
dancers' are now commonplace, although until the recent past striptease was
restricted to a few locations, mainly in places like London's Soho. There
is nothing legitimately available to compete with what is available in
Amsterdam, or even in Paris. In other European countries, the distinction
is quite different. I recall being in Copenhagen on New Year's Eve once:
the hotel TV had the BBC (with Scottish kilt-wearing celebrations) and
Swedish TV (with topless cabaret).
3. The Monty Python remark is interesting because they were reacting
against the safe TV style of previous generations and celebrating
(sometimes spearheading) greater openness. Taking their clothes off was
designed to be both shocking and also in curious ways unsexy. They also
enjoyed taking their clothes off - and dressing in women's clothing.
4. Nude swimming was quite widely tolerated in the mid-19th century and
then progressively less so. Revd Francis Kilvert, in his Diary, for example
records going swimming at a beach (c.1860?) and being taken aback at now
being required to wear a costume (which was lent or rented to him). The
waves knocked him back onto the beach - and then dragged his costume down,
to the amusement of passing ladies. Well, that was his story. Nude bathing
remained commonplace among upper-class and academic men until the 1930s or
1940s; it crossed over with the naturism movement that came from Germany
and Scandinavia, and has in recent years crossed over again with gay
exploitation of beaches where nudity is tolerated. There are a few nude
beaches in England (some going back to the 1920s or 1930s), and are often
packed on warm days. If Parsons' Pleasure in Oxford has gone, the
University Bathing Sheds, so called, remain at Cambridge as a (mixed) nude
swimming place - although nobody would really want to go into the
agrochemical-filled water of the River Cam. This shift in clothing
attitudes mirrors the change in the appreciation of the homoerotic: today,
the naked body in these contexts is actually more sexualised than it once
was. Male bonding without clothing was not immediately regarded as sexually
charged a century ago - whereas it almost always is today.
David Souden
____________
David Souden
43 New Road
London
E1 1HE
t: 0171-377 2028
f: 0171-377 0041
m: 0370-471940
e: dcsouden@nildram.co.uk
__________________________________________________________________
From: "A. G. McLaren" <amclaren@UVic.CA>
To: "Histsex:For historians of sexuality" <histsex@listbot.com>
Subject: Re: Topless sunbathing
As regards male bathing and nudity, I say a bit about such issues in the
chapter on "Exhibitionism" in The Trials of Masculinity (Chicago, 1997).
__________________________________________________________________
From: MillerJimE@aol.com
Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2000 19:00:29 EST
Subject: Re: striptease
In a message dated 02/05/2000 10:21:04 AM Central Standard Time,
dcsouden@nildram.co.uk writes:
<< 3. The Monty Python remark is interesting because they were reacting
against the safe TV style of previous generations and celebrating
(sometimes spearheading) greater openness. Taking their clothes off was
designed to be both shocking and also in curious ways unsexy. They also
enjoyed taking their clothes off - and dressing in women's clothing. >>
Speaking of humor, what about the recent movie The Full Monty? It seems
to presuppose some market for male strippers (and female strippers as well,
of course), stripteases which were lacivious first and comic second, if at
all.
As an exercise in historical method; if we had little more than the movie
The Full Monty and we did understand that it was a comedy like those of
Aristophanes or Plautus, what would we conclude about nudity in modern
British culture? Yes, I know it is an unfair question, but this type of
question often occupies my free time.
Jim Miller
______________________________________________________________________
Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2000 03:32:13 -0800 (PST)
From: techno toy <technotoy@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: nude sunbathing
I've been reading George Mosse's "Nationalism and
Sexuality" and he relates some interesting tidbits
about German nudism. He says that the Nazis banned
nudism almost as soon as they came into power. In
February 1933, the Prussian Ministry of Interior
castigated it as a dangerous error.
In 1935, the Ministry of the Interior said that
same-sex nude sunbathing could be the first step in
violating paragraph 175, the clause in the basic law
that criminalized homosexuality. (This is all page 171
of Mosse.)
I think this last point is interesting, because some
of the discussion so far has suggested, I believe,
that it was the fact that men and women were bathing
together that lead to the demise of nude sunbathing,
but the Nazi ordinace seems to suggest that also
single-sex nude sunbathing became suspicious.
=====
Robert Tobin
Conrad-Blenkle-Str. 58
10407 Berlin Germany
(030) 4280 3109
__________________________________________________________________
From: The Fawcett Library <fawcett@lgu.ac.uk>
Subject: Naked bathing
Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2000 12:10:21 +0000 (GMT)
Of course I should have remembered the Sheds at Cambridge
(as celebrated in Gwen Raverat's _Period Piece_), and
Parson's Pleasure at Oxford ... just in case anybody hasn't
heard it, there is a story about a boatload of ladies
inadvertently turning up there - the dons all rapidly put
their hands over their groins, except Maurice Bowra, who
covered his face; as he explained: "I at least am more
easily recognised in Oxford by my face."
There is also the incident in _A room of one's own_ where
the women come across the men sporting in a woodland pool
.... Early 1900s.
David Doughan, Reference Librarian
The Fawcett Library (The National Library of Women)
fawcett@lgu.ac.uk
http://www.lgu.ac.uk/fawcett/main.htm
Phone: 0171 320 1189
Fax: 0171 320 1188
_________________
"Gentlemen and dogs not allowed beyond
the vestibule" (Sign at Pioneer Club, London, ca. 1892)
__________________________________________________________________
Subject: Seeking credible analyses of age of puberty shift.
Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2000 05:36:55 -0800
From: "andrei-f" <andrei-f@goplay.com>
Hello,
I understand that studies have been made indicating that the age of
puberty in antiquity came quite late (late teens, early twenties?)
and has been declining ever since. Is there any solid work backing
this contention?
Thank you,
Andrei
__________________________________________________________________
Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2000 18:47:56 +0100
From: Gert Hekma <hekma@pscw.uva.nl>
Subject: Re: male nudity in public
Dear friends,
I have a recycled picture on a postcard from NY (NY Historical Society,
copyright Portfolio) ca. 1892 "Fulton Fish Market, NY City" that shows a
group of boys/young men amidst the boats in the harbour most of them
completely naked apparently after swimming in the Hudson. There are older
men standing around, some working, some looking.
Doing research in the criminal archives of the Netherlands, I came across a
case of a group of young men being fined (50 cents each) for swimming nude
in Rotterdam, and that is already in 1859. I did not find other similar
cases however while looking for court cases regarding public indecency.
They concerned most often gay or (less) straight sex in public, while
exhibitionists came under the scrunity of police and justice from the
1880's on. Pictures from swimming pools in Amsterdam of the late 19th c.
show men wearing swimming trunks, so apparently nude swimming ended earlier
in the NL than in the US.
Sincerely,
Gert Hekma
__________________________________________________________________
Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2000 22:29:19 -0600
From: Bob <suannschafer@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Topless sunbathing
And it was very much appreciated, Matt.
__________________________________________________________________
Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2000 23:21:47 -0600
From: Bob <suannschafer@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Topless sunbathing
Ianthe, what is the source of this "news cutting"?
<snip>
>
>It is also an East/West European issue, vis this news cuttings
>from 16th July 1999:
>
>
>_Cold war returns as Germans strip off on beaches_
<snip>
__________________________________________________________________
Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2000 23:38:13 -0600
From: Bob <suannschafer@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Topless sunbathing
Javier, I like what you wrote, I only take exception to your final phrase:
>as nude is a natural state of the body.
The nude is NOT a natural state of the body. The "natural state" of
the body may indeed be naked, but the nude as an idea is one that
emerges in classical (Western) antiquity, with the notion of the
perfected/perfectible naked body, turned into art as -- the Nude.
The Nude is not supposed to inspire thoughts of sex/sexuality (the
ostensive purpose of this list) -- that is the role of the naked --
but the Nude's role is to elevate one's thoughts beyond the mere
matter of the unclothed body. Nude & naked are often too loosely
used interchangeably in English. Other languages?
__________________________________________________________________
Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2000 06:15:53 +0000
From: Javier Pulido Biosca <raices1@prodigy.net.mx>
Subject: RE: Topless sunbathing
Bob:
I agree with you. Tha classical aesthetics presents nude bodies as a
representation of the sublime.
I am Spanish speaker (and obviously I think in Spanish). I my language there
is no diference between naked and nude. We use "desnudo" for both meanings.
But can be used "Desnudo" for "Nude" and "Desvestido" for "Naked", with a
sexual connotation.
Javier
> Nude & naked are often too loosely
>used interchangeably in English. Other languages?
__________________________________________________________________
Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 17:53:49 +0000
From: Ianthe <ianthe@duende.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Topless sunbathing
In message <v04210101b4c557fa6c78@[38.27.192.214]>, Bob
<suannschafer@earthlink.net> writes
>Histsex:For historians of sexuality - http://homepages.primex.co.uk/~lesleyah
>
>Ianthe, what is the source of this "news cutting"?
>
><snip>
>
>>
>>It is also an East/West European issue, vis this news cuttings
>>from 16th July 1999:
>>
>>
>>_Cold war returns as Germans strip off on beaches_
Daily Telegraph (England), July 1999.
--
Ianthe
__________________________________________________________________
From: "Lesley Hall" <lesleyah@primex.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Topless sunbathing
Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 18:35:21 -0000
Bob remarked:
> Nude & naked are often too loosely
>used interchangeably in English.
cf poem by Robert Graves:
To me, the naked and the nude
By lexicographers construed
As synonymns which should express
The same deficiency of dress
Lie as far apart
As love from lies or truth from art.
(? half a line missing somewhere?)
Lesley
Lesley Hall
lesleyah@primex.co.uk
website http://homepages.primex.co.uk/~lesleyah
__________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: male nudity in public
Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2000 17:39:27 -0600
From: "Michael J. Murphy" <mjmurphy@artsci.wustl.edu>
Dear all,
Dr. Hekma brings up a great point with his photograph. The boys in his
photo were known in their day as River Rats and are featured in numerous
photographs and paintings from the Gilded Age and Progressive Era
(c1880-c1920). The young boys are generally identified as from the
working or immigrant classes. In NYC those without private facilities and
access to clean water bathed in the rivers and harbor. It was only
during the 1890s that public bathing facilities became available in
America. In response to progressivist concerns about the pollution of
New York City's water, a number of pubic baths were built in NYC after
the 1890s and survived alongside Jewish ritual, private and medicinal
baths. There were brick and mortar baths on land, as well as floating
seasonal baths on the rivers, the latter duplicated a practice
popularized in Paris (and other European capitals?) Since bathing was
segregated by sex/gender, it was customary for bathing at a bath to occur
in the nude.
One might conclude from Dr. Hekma's photo and my information above that
outdoor nude bathing was a privilege/burden of the working classes.
However we should remember Thomas Eakins famous painting from the 1880s
The Swimming Hole and the numerous photographs and studies which support
it. It would appear that outdoor nude bathing was a male prerogative; but
I would assert that the existence of pictorial representations of any
kind does not social permission evidence. (Think about the innumerable
19c images of classical women bathing in the nude and their relationship
to social practice.) Especially in rural and secluded areas in America, I
would think if you weren't caught, it wasn't illegal.
Read more about it: George Chauncey's Gay New York has a chapter on gay
bathhouses with references to books/articles on public baths in NYC.
Books on Eakins, and the Ashcan School of painters usually discuss a
number of paintings of river rats swimming in New York's waterways. There
are also a few books on the history of cleanliness in America which
probably address these issues.
Best,
Michael J. Murphy, M.A.
Graduate Student, Dept. of Art History and Archaeology
Washington University, St. Louis
mjmurphy@artsci.wustl.edu
"An infinite mirror would no longer be a mirror" -Jean-Louis Baudry
__________________________________________________________________
Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2000 14:56:00 -0500
From: David Nicholas Harley <David.N.Harley.4@nd.edu>
Subject: Re: Topless sunbathing
>_Cold war returns as Germans strip off on beaches_
>
>Daily Telegraph (England), July 1999.
The story referred to by Ianthe, concerning angry West German pensioners
who threw sand at Elke Renger, 18, from Dresden, was printed in the Daily
Telegraph of 16 July 1999.
It can be found by searching http://www.telegraph.co.uk
David Harley,
Dept. of History,
University of Notre Dame,
Notre Dame, Indiana 46556
tel.: 219-631-7789
__________________________________________________________________
Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 23:41:12 +0000
From: Ianthe <ianthe@duende.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Topless sunbathing
In message <020101bf7265$b2bda6a0$b12f70c3@oemcomputer>, Lesley Hall
<lesleyah@primex.co.uk> writes
>Histsex:For historians of sexuality - http://homepages.primex.co.uk/~lesleyah
>
>Bob remarked:
>> Nude & naked are often too loosely
>>used interchangeably in English.
>
>cf poem by Robert Graves:
>
>To me, the naked and the nude
>By lexicographers construed
>As synonymns which should express
>The same deficiency of dress
>Lie as far apart
>As love from lies or truth from art.
>(? half a line missing somewhere?)
And this from Thomas Mann's diary (author of _Death in Venice_,
+ his (lesbian?) daughter acted in _Madchen in Uniform_ and
later made a marriage of convenience with Auden, although I
suspect that as this extract is about the USA (?), this was
about another younger daughter):
"In a word, we became an offence to the public morals. Our
small daughter -- eight years old, but in physical development
a good year younger and thin as a chicken -- had had a good
long bathe and gone playing in the warm sun in her wet
costume. We told her that she might take off her bathing
suit, which was stiff with sand, rinse it in the sea, and
put it on again, after which she must take care to keep it
cleaner. Off goes the costume and she runs down naked to
the sea, rinses her little jersey, and comes back. Ought we
to have forseen the outburst of anger and resentment which
her conduct, and thus our conduct, called forth? ... I may
say that in the last decade our attitude toward the nude
body and our feelings regarding it have undergone, all over
the world, a fundamental change. There are things we 'never
think about' any more, and among them is the freedom we have
permitted to this by no means provocative little childish
body. But in these parts it was taken as a challenge..."
(Thomas Mann, 1929)
--
Ianthe Duende
__________________________________________________________________
Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2000 21:03:27 -0600
From: Bob <suannschafer@earthlink.net>
Subject: RE: Topless sunbathing
>I agree with you. Tha classical aesthetics presents nude bodies as a
>representation of the sublime.
Excellent point! You helped clarify my thinking on the matter.
>
>I am Spanish speaker (and obviously I think in Spanish).
Would that I could <sigh>
>In my language there
>is no diference between naked and nude. We use "desnudo" for both meanings.
>But can be used "Desnudo" for "Nude" and "Desvestido" for "Naked", with a
>sexual connotation.
So it's the "desvestido" that has the sexual connotation? Interesting.
Great exchange. Thanks!
______________________________________________________________________
From: "Matthew Johnson" <trekdrop78@hotmail.com>
Subject: re: male nudity in public
Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2000 21:25:34 PST
re: Michael Murphy's message:
Chauncey on bathhouses vs. River Rats: Shouldn't we draw a distinction
between kinds of public space here? No one was charged a fee for swimming
in the East River, while New York's bathhouses did (and do) charge
admission. This already limits their 'public' nature to a considerable
extent. Also, by Chauncey's account, New York's baths were gradually
transformed into highly rarified, (homo)sexually charged atmospheres, this
process being aided by their exclusivity. Again, this was not true of the
river (at least, the sexual dimension of the space was not aided by its
sequestration from the world at large). Should the River Rats and the later
bathhouse-goers both be classified under the rubric of 'public nude
bathers'? For that matter, should we term the locker room shower a 'public
nude bath'?
-- Matt Johnson
__________________________________________________________________
Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2000 13:54:46 +0000
From: Ianthe <ianthe@duende.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Topless sunbathing
Snippets from the mammoth biography by Tim Jeal: _Baden-Powell_.
Hutchinson. London, 1989. 680 pages. (Lord) Baden-Powell,
founder of the Boy Scouts:
"At Gilwell Park, the Scouts' camping ground in Epping Forest,
he always enjoyed watching the boys swimming naked, and
would sometimes chat with them after they had 'just stripped
off'. When public censoriousness finally turned against male
nudity, treating it in the same way as female nudity,
Baden-Powell was appalled." p. 92.
"Baden-Powell was in a position of trust which made watching,
at one remove, the only way to satisfy his interest. The other
was to seek the company of men like Tod, who lived in close
contact with young males. Through their shared memories of
Charterhouse and their undoubted 'sentimentalism', which in
both their cases found no physical fulfilment, they would
have had a close understanding that required no word of
explanation." p. 96.
--
Ianthe Duende
__________________________________________________________________
Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2000 20:38:03 -0600
From: Bob <suannschafer@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Topless sunbathing
Interesting given that this side of the pond the "right" of a
homosexual to participate in the Boy Scouts is going to the U.S.
Supreme Court.
Always suspected it was a homosocial activity, if not something more.
:)
>Snippets from the mammoth biography by Tim Jeal: _Baden-Powell_.
>Hutchinson. London, 1989. 680 pages. (Lord) Baden-Powell,
>founder of the Boy Scouts:
>
> "At Gilwell Park, the Scouts' camping ground in Epping Forest,
> he always enjoyed watching the boys swimming naked, and
> would sometimes chat with them after they had 'just stripped
> off'. When public censoriousness finally turned against male
> nudity, treating it in the same way as female nudity,
> Baden-Powell was appalled." p. 92.
>
> "Baden-Powell was in a position of trust which made watching,
> at one remove, the only way to satisfy his interest. The other
> was to seek the company of men like Tod, who lived in close
> contact with young males. Through their shared memories of
> Charterhouse and their undoubted 'sentimentalism', which in
> both their cases found no physical fulfilment, they would
> have had a close understanding that required no word of
> explanation." p. 96.
__________________________________________________________________
From: "Paul Marks" <pkmax@bold.net.au>
Subject: Intersex and the Law
Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 15:45:13 +1030
Hi all,=20
Thanks to those who responded to my Intersex question.=20
Paul
__________________________________________________________________
Subject: re: male nudity in public
Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2000 09:51:06 -0600
From: "Michael J. Murphy" <mjmurphy@artsci.wustl.edu>
Matt and I differ in interpreting Chauncey's text. Although his focus is
on homosexual behavior in bathhouses, Chauncey never argues that New
York's public bathhouses gradually transformed into gay bathhouses. Quite
the contrary, Chauncey argues that NYC's _public_ baths were only rarely
accomodating of homosexual behavior because of the high degree of
surveillance and supervision. Rather, homosexual behavior seems to have
fluorished in _private_ bathhouses. Homosexual behavior in a bathhouse
does not a gay bathhouse make!
Matt is correct in asserting that NYC's public baths charged a fee, but
especially in immigrant neighborhoods targeted by the public bath
movement, entry fees were minimal and seem not to have influenced
attendance. The existence of an entry fee seems in some ways to alter our
understanding of a space as public, but few would assert that sex at a
baseball game (which charges admission) is a private event. (And if this
happens do please let me know in advance...) I think court decisions here
have turned on the 'expectation of privacy', as the fictive cultural
separation of public from private space is constantly being legally
(re)negotiated and (re)defined.
Attempting to distinguish the public and private nature of bathhouse
space is a futile effort and surely devolves to questions of perception;
some homosexual bathhouse patrons would certainly have claimed the spaces
were private, others might have derived pleasure from performing sexually
in a public space; public purity crusaders and the police seem to have
perceived the bathhouse as a public space in that it was regulated by
law. Chancey's text contains evidence of all three multi-valent
perceptions simultaneous coexistence and the clashes which resulted.
But I would still maintain that nude bathing in public bathhouses was a
form of nude public bathing, but certainly not identical to nude bathing
in the river. Nudity in a bathhouse had different class connotations than
river bathing; the 'audience' was different, but people were still
sartorially bereft.
Best,
Mike Murphy
______________________________________________________________________
From: "Alyson Brown" <alyson.brown@luton.ac.uk>
Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 12:57:20 gmt
Subject: Re: adoption
I am looking for some information on unregulated 'adoptions', if they
could be called that, which occurred in England this century before
the 1926 Adoption Act. Can anyone suggest any good references?
Thank you
Alyson
__________________________________________________________________
From: "Stevenson, Kim" <kim.stevenson@ntu.ac.uk>
Subject: RE: adoption
Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 13:09:10 -0000
Dear Alyson - we met at caius??? Kim. A colleague has helpfully suggested
that you have a look at some of the Standing Comnmittee papers (SC A) of
1922 and 1925 where the Bills for Adoption were considered. There were
several bills published from around 1922 but nothing occurred until 1926.
This is an area that is sort of being considered by me (i.e. Kims colleague)
in relation to insanity/incapacity of mind and the fact that women cannot
consent ot have their child adopted until at least 6 weeks after the birth.
My name is Liz Rodgers and my e-mail is Liz.Rodgers@ntu.ac.uk
Regards
LIZ
__________________________________________________________________
Date: 11 Feb 2000 16:05:22 -0000
From: "Histsex:For historians of sexuality" <histsex-owner@listbot.com>
Subject: RCPT messages again!
As we seem to be getting these again, I am putting the list on moderation
once more until they stop.
I think this happens when someone has the autorespond on for their e-mail.
If list-members are going away for a period, as this list does not support
a hold mail option, it is suggested that they unsub and then resub,
tedious though this procedure is.
Lesley
histsex-owner@listbot.com
lesleyah@primex.co.uk
__________________________________________________________________
Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 08:19:28 -0800 (PST)
From: "A. G. McLaren" <amclaren@UVic.CA>
Subject: RE: adoption
Hi Alyson,
Regarding unregulated adoption, I recall a passage in George Behlmer's
Friendsof the Family in which he mentions the fear the middle class had
that the biological parent of an adopted child would show up and make
demands.
Angus McLaren
__________________________________________________________________
Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 14:46:34 -0500
From: Heather Lee Miller <miller.1438@osu.edu>
Subject: urgent call for chair/commenter for AHA panel
Hello to everyone on the list.=A0 Julian Carter, Sarah Igo, and I have put
together a proposal for the 2001 American Historical Association
conference and are looking for a commenter and chair.=A0 The proposal is
due on the 15th of February and everyone we've asked so far is already
booked!=A0 Please, if you (or anyone you know) would be an interested and
appropriate chair or commenter (and are not already committed to a panel
at the AHA) please contact me ASAP at miller.1438@osu.edu. I have
included the proposal below (and can send more detailed individual
abstracts, if necessary).<br>
<br>
Thanks!<br>
Heather Lee Miller<br>
PhD Candidate, History<br>
Ohio State University<br>
<br>
Managing Editor<br>
<i>Journal of Women's History<br>
<br>
</i>~~~~~~~~~~<br>
Paper Proposal<br>
Science/Fictions: Truth Claims, Evidence, and Narrative Expectations in
the History of Sexuality<br>
<br>
As the enclosed abstracts make clear, this panel will address
methodological and theoretical issues of broad relevance and interest
many historians. We propose to examine problems of evidentiary
verifiability, interpretative objectivity, and narrative expectations as
these present themselves in our research. While each proposed paper
addresses these themes in relation to a clearly-defined body of archival
material, we have agreed to collaborate on our presentations, emphasizing
our common concern with analytic methods. Our goal is to stimulate
discussion about the methodological issues central to the historical
practice of sexuality studies. <br>
<br>
The last century has seen a number of efforts to codify and
professionalize a =93science=94 of sex, that is, a mode of study which
divorces itself from pornographic treatments of eroticism by its emphasis
on dispassion and empirical accuracy. For such studies, telling true
stories about sex requires that one maintain considerable distance from
the object of study. Similarly, the material so treated must conform to
the basic rules of scientific research: there must be a definite object
to study, and results ought to be verifiable by other scholars handling
the same data. As Sarah Igo shows in her paper on popular reception of
the Kinsey Reports, these expectations are challenged by the
compassionate intimacy that sometimes develops between sex researcher and
interview subject. Her paper examines the contrast between Kinsey=92s
public insistence on the scientific objectivity of his studies, and the
intimacy and compassion of his relationships with subjects. She shows
that Kinsey attributed much of his success as an interviewer to the fact
that his subjects were willing to enter into an intimate relationship
with him, a relationship based on their trust in his personal integrity
and compassionate intentions toward them as much as on his scientific
credentials. This emotional, intuitive, and personal dimension of sex
research, Igo shows, is what tends to be disavowed in the effort to
establish a clear distinction between legitimate scholarly sex research,
and unscientific smut.<br>
<br>
Heather Miller takes up the challenge Igo identifies. Miller=92s paper
examines an early twentieth century document which purports to be the
=93autobiography=94 of a prostitute, yet which was written by an unknown
person, possibly as a sexological case study and possibly with
pornographic intent. In this case, the anonymity of the document raises
fascinating questions about what we learn when we read it: what kinds of
truth about sex can such a story tell? How does the unverifiability of
the source influence its usefulness in the construction of sexual
narratives? Finally, Julian Carter=92s paper compares some current
literature about midcentury sexology with its source base, demonstrating
the interpretative limitations imposed on the history of sexuality by the
expectation that all legitimate argument is firmly based in empirical
evidence. Since the experience of intimacy leaves few material traces,
she argues, most historians have hesitated to engage with the subjective
aspects of the history of sexuality. She concludes by identifying some of
the grounds on which we can distinguish between unfounded speculation and
intuitive response to our sources, suggesting some of the implications
for text-based historians of oral history=92s relative success at rendering
sexual narratives in human terms. <br>
<br>
We feel certain that this panel could stimulate lively and fruitful
discussion about issues close to the center of our professional practice,
and we look forward to participating in the 2001 Annual Meeting of the
AHA.<br>
__________________________________________________________________
From: "Chris Willis" <chris@chriswillis.freeserve.co.uk>
Subject: Re: adoption
Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 19:27:14 -0000
You might like to look at biographies of Dorothy L Sayers - she had her son,
John Anthony Fleming, unofficially adopted by a relative, Ivy Shrimpton.
The biographies by Barbara Reynolds and James Brabazon (don't read the one
by Janet Hitchman - it's full of errors) give details of how she managed it.
All the best
Chris
=========================================
Chris Willis
English Dept
Birkbeck College
Malet Street
London WC1E 7HX
Chris@chriswillis.freeserve.co.uk
http://www.chriswillis.freeserve.co.uk/
__________________________________________________________________
Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 13:52:53 -0800 (PST)
From: "A. G. McLaren" <amclaren@UVic.CA>
Subject: Re: adoption
Hi Chris,
I found the reference to Sayers very interesting. I have a friend doing
some work on "social parenting"--kin, friends, etc taking in chidren.
Would anyone have suggestions on literature in the area?
Angus McLaren
__________________________________________________________________
From: manohar@sangama.ilban.ernet.in
Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2000 11:02:17
Subject: MAPPING ADOLESCENT SEXUALITY
We invite you to a public lecture on 'MAPPING ADOLESCENT SEXUALITY'
by Ms. PARAMITA BANERJEE
on 14th FEBRUARY 2000, MONDAY
at 6.15 PM
at SANGAMA, 1st Floor, No.7, 8th Main, 3rd Phase, Domlur 2nd Stage,
Bangalore - 71. Phone: 530 9591.
HOW TO REACH US: While travelling on the Airport road take the road bang
opposite 'New Shanthi Sagar'. This is between Domlur Bus Depot and the
Water Tank. You will have BDA Complex to your left, Government School
to your right and Sagar Departmental Store to your left. Follow this
road until it curves to the left. Take the curve and keep on this road
for 100 more meters till you find a 3 storied red brick (unplastered)
building with green windows. Sangama is located on the first floor of
this building.
MS. BANERJEE is currently a MacArthur Fellow working with adolescent
children of sex workers in 3 brothel areas in Calcutta. She has varied
work experience in academics and action research, with special focus
on Reproductive and Sexual Health and Rights. She uses theatre and
other performance forms in her work. Her talk will focus on the
challenges in breaking down taboos around talk/work on sexuality
with adolescents, and strategies to overcome these.
SABRANG
Email: sabrang@sangama.ilban.ernet.in
SANGAMA
Email: admin@sangama.ilban.ernet.in
__________________________________________________________________
Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2000 19:35:19 -0800
From: Heather Lee Miller <miller.1438@osu.edu>
Subject: Re: urgent call for chair/commenter for AHA panel
It is on 4-7 January 2001, Boston. Would you be interested in being on the
panel given those parameters?
Heather
At 05:52 PM 02/11/2000 -0500, you wrote:
>Histsex:For historians of sexuality - http://homepages.primex.co.uk/~lesleyah
>
>Where and when will the meeting be held? David Greenberg, SOciology
>Department, New York University.
>
__________________________________________________________________
From: Mal123nash@aol.com
Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2000 11:31:34 EST
Subject: Re: Ulrichs partly in German
Dear HistSex List Members,
I'd just like to say hello and mention that the Ulrichs' webpage
(Celebration 2000) is available partly in German:
http://www.angelfire.com./fl3/celebration2000/german.html
Perhaps you could send it to a German-speaking scholar.
With best wishes,
Michael Lombardi-Nash, Ph.D.
__________________________________________________________________
From: ScarletMagazine@aol.com
Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 09:36:53 EST
Subject: Re: urgent call for chair/commenter for AHA panel
Heather,
I would suggest you contact Hanne Blank, who works through Brandeis, and is
an excellent speaker and author on a veriety of sexual issues. Her email is
she@hanne.net
Heather Corinna
__________________________________________________________________
From: "Lesley Hall" <lesleyah@primex.co.uk>
Subject: Abortion in C20th literature
Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 13:00:56 -0000
Last year I asked for suggestions as to literary representations of =
abortion in the twentieth century, primarily interwar Britain. I =
received several very helpful responses to this query, and the results =
are now posted as 'Literary Abortion' on my website, at =
http://homepages.primex.co.uk/~lesleyah/abortion.htm
Many thanks to everyone who contributed suggestions, and any further =
information will be very welcome and added to this page.
Lesley Hall
lesleyah@primex.co.uk
website http://homepages.primex.co.uk/~lesleyah
__________________________________________________________________
From: The Fawcett Library <fawcett@lgu.ac.uk>
Subject: Nude and naked
Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 08:51:05 +0000 (GMT)
On Mon, 7 Feb 2000 23:38:13 -0600 Bob
<suannschafer@earthlink.net> wrote:
> The Nude is not supposed to inspire thoughts of sex/sexuality (the
> ostensive purpose of this list) -- that is the role of the naked --
> but the Nude's role is to elevate one's thoughts beyond the mere
> matter of the unclothed body.
On the other hand, in English "nude" rhymes with "rude" -
and of course in popular culture "nudist" has connotations
of hanky-panky in the bushes.
David Doughan, Reference Librarian
The Fawcett Library (The National Library of Women)
fawcett@lgu.ac.uk
http://www.lgu.ac.uk/fawcett/main.htm
Phone: 0171 320 1189
Fax: 0171 320 1188
_________________
"Gentlemen and dogs not allowed beyond
the vestibule" (Sign at Pioneer Club, London, ca. 1892)
__________________________________________________________________
Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2000 21:32:06 -0800
From: Heather Lee Miller <miller.1438@osu.edu>
Subject: Re: urgent call for chair/commenter for AHA panel
Dear Heather Corinna,
We found people already, but thanks much for the tip! I'd be interested to
talk with her in any case.
Best,
Heather
__________________________________________________________________
From: "Dionne Stephens" <dionne@arches.uga.edu>
Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2000 21:32:42 -0500
I'm very excited to have the opportunity to connect with others =
interested in the history of sexuality. I'm a doctoral student focusing =
on Black women's sexuality in terms of how race and gender identity =
impact sexual self concept and behaviors. I'm interested in the =
experiences of women of African descent in the diaspora. However, I'm =
finding it necessary to keep tracing historical issues to compliment =
current trends.
_________________________________________________________________________=
__________________
Dionne Stephens, Doctoral Student
University of Georgia
Department of Child and Family
Athens Georgia 30602 =20
Email: dionne@arches.uga.edu
Internet: www.arches.uga.edu/~dionne (under construction)
__________________________________________________________________
From: "Paul Marks" <pkmax@bold.net.au>
Subject: Cases of Intersex
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 23:23:22 +1030
Hi
I found some references to the case of Thomas(ine) Hall, an Intersexed =
individual, who lived in Warrosquyoacke, Virginia, in 1629.=20
This person presented sometimes as a woman and others as a man. =
Ultimately, the court ordered him to live as a man and this decision was =
apparently based upon a genital examination.
Not much has changed...genitals still rule.
I wondered if anyone knows of other similar types of cases/stories
Paul=20
__________________________________________________________________
From: "Alyson Brown" <alyson.brown@luton.ac.uk>
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 13:53:05 gmt
Subject: Re: Cases of Intersex
Hi
Many years ago, while looking in a local paper 'The Hull Advertiser'
(then in Humberside) I came across an article. Unfortunately, I did
not record the reference, but it was during the mid-nineteenth
century. Anyway, a man was killed in an accident while working
on the dock in Hull, he had been working there for a couple of
years. However, it was not until this accident that it was
discovered that he was actually a woman. Not only that but she
had been living as man and wife with another woman for a number
of years. When asked the partner stated that she had always
believed that she was living with a man.
That was basically the story recounted by the newspaper, it did not
go into any further detail or consideration of wider issues.
Regards
Alyson
__________________________________________________________________
From: Mal123nash@aol.com
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 09:03:00 EST
Subject: Hirschfeld/cases of intersex
Hi, I tried to send this private to hpkmax@bold.net.au, but my email got
returned; so, I send it to the list:
Subj: Re: Hirschfeld/Cases of Intersex
Date: 2/16/00
To: <A HREF="mailto:hpkmax@bold.net.au">hpkmax@bold.net.au</A>
Dear Paul,
There are cases of this, I believe, in Magnus Hirschfeld's
"Transvestites."
With best wishes,
Michael Lombardi-Nash, Ph.D.
http://www.prometheusbooks.com/site/catalog/humans33.html
webpage for Hirschfeld's "Transvestites"
<< (Paul Marks) >>
__________________________________________________________________
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 05:52:48 -0800 (PST)
From: Lisa Diguardi <diguardi@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Cases of Intersex
If I remember this case correctly, the court records
showed that Hall was found to be both male & female,
as Hall claimed, and the court specified what clothing
s/he would wear which included both men's and women's
items. The court records also noted that no evidence
of female genitalia was discovered.
-Lisa
__________________________________________________________________
From: Swamp1800@aol.com
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2000 23:00:18 EST
Subject: Stone's Family, Sex and Marriage
I am reading Lawrence Stone's The Family, Sex and Marriage in England
1500-1800 and am wondering if there has been any work challenging Stone's
methods and conclusions.
Bob Arnebeck
__________________________________________________________________
From: "Lesley Hall" <lesleyah@primex.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Stone's Family, Sex and Marriage
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 19:52:41 -0000
A couple of more recent works on the C18th, which give much more attention
to plebian sexualities, are Tim Hitchcock's _English Sexualities, 1700-1800_
and Randolph Trumbach's big new book _Sex and the Gender Revolution, Volume
One: Heterosexuality and the Third Gender in Enlightenment London_
Lesley Hall
lesleyah@primex.co.uk
website http://homepages.primex.co.uk/~lesleyah
__________________________________________________________________
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 10:07:32 -0700 (MST)
From: Tim Hodgdon <Tim.Hodgdon@asu.edu>
Subject: Re: Stone's Family, Sex and Marriage
Two places to check: book reviews, and the Social Sciences
Citation Index.
Tim Hodgdon
Reference Specialist
Carl Hayden Library
Ph.D. candidate
Department of History
Arizona State University
Tim.Hodgdon@asu.edu
__________________________________________________________________
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 10:56:16 +1100
From: Hera Cook <hera.cook@history.usyd.edu.au>
Subject: Re: Stone's Family, Sex and Marriage
Hi Bob,
There are criticisms of Stone everywhere - he deserves it but as a man of a
pre-feminist generation writing about sex and people's lives, he is also in some
ways an easy target. I take you are interested in sexuality and the history of
the family rather than just history of sexuality? [anyone who isn't can stop
reading now]
If so women and reproduction are crucial. One of the major problems with Stone is
his lack of awareness of women's experience - what springs to my mind is -
Angus McLaren in Reproductive Rituals (1984) has a different view - he quoted
Stone -'It would require ,[Lawrence Stone] states, an actual improvement in the
standard of living to make the idea of limiting births meaningful. If a working
class family was impoverished whether it had two or twelve children what
difference could birth control make?' page 2.
McLaren's whole book refutes this vision of plebian agency - there have to be
problems with an historian who cannot conceive that it will be meaningful to an
actual individual woman if she has 2 or 12 children regardless of her economic
conditions.
Wally Seccombe's A millenium of family change: feudalism to capitalism in
Northwestern Europe, (1995) is a very big picture demographic view of the history
of the family but unlike Stone he has considerable compassion combined with an
awareness that people actually lived these lives. The section of his book on the
eighteenth century goes very well with the Tim Hitchcock which has already been
suggested - two different perspectives that inform each other.
I came across the following recently in The culture of capitalism, (1987) by
Alan MacFarlane. It seems to me obvious that how we understand the history of
emotion will colour our understanding of sexual activity -
"Two major problems emerge from the overturning of the orthodox view that the
romantic love complex was largely invented in the eighteenth century. One is
historiographical; namely how did so many historians manage to make such very
considerable errors?...First was the strength of the predictive model, [if Marx
and Weber were right in their timing. etc etc...] ..A second reason for error
lies in a conflation of evidence from different countries. While most writers
accept in principle that the experience of England and that of France, Germany
and other continental countries may have been, and probably was, very different,
in practice they tend to overlook this. If we were to put on one side all
evidence from outside England for the moment, then almost all of the proff for
the work of Aires, Shorter, Stone and others would fall away. Other reasons for
error include... the false argument that absense of expression of emotion means
the absense of emotion, deductions about the bulk of the population from the
elite...."
There is also a growing amount of wonderful women's history which is relevant.
But enough....
Regards,
Hera
--
Hera Cook
History Department
MacCallum Building A17
University of Sydney
NSW 2006
Australia
Phone 61 2 9351 2862, Fax 61 2 9351 3918
__________________________________________________________________
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 23:22:00 -0800
From: Sharon Block <sblock@uci.edu>
Subject: Re: Cases of Intersex
The Thomas/Thomasina case was pretty complicated because different groups
in the community disagreed over his/her genitals, and so there were several
conflicting decisions. Ultimately, the Virginians
couldn't decide his/her sex, so ordered him/her to wear men's clothes
with women's accessories (bonnet, apron, etc).
Kathleen Brown has written a great article on this case:
"'Changed into the fashion of man': The Politics of Sexual Difference
in a Seventeenth-Century Anglo-American Settlement,"
Journal of the History of Sexuality
6:2 (1995) 171-93.
Mary Beth Norton also addresses this in her most recent book.
Sharon Block
sblock@uci.edu
__________________________________________________________________
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2000 20:02:42 -0500
From: David Nicholas Harley <David.N.Harley.4@nd.edu>
Subject: Re: Stone's Family, Sex and Marriage
Bob Arnebeck wrote:
>I am reading Lawrence Stone's The Family, Sex and Marriage in England
>1500-1800 and am wondering if there has been any work challenging Stone's
>methods and conclusions.
David Harley comments:
The books and essays of Linda Pollock often challenge, directly or
indirectly, Stone's view of the harshness of childrearing in the earlier
part of his period. See also Margaret Pelling's essay on the value placed
on child health, in Social History of Medicine 7 (1988) pp. 135-64. On
sex, Angus McLaren's Reproductive Rituals is useful. [Maybe Angus would
like to suggest a few items.] On marriage and chilbirth, David Cressy's
Birth, Marriage and Death is compendious. However, there has been a vast
flood of material, almost all of which has disageed with the schematic
character of Stone's work. Throughout most of his career, he was
essentially a "lumper" rather than a "splitter".
David Harley,
Dept. of History,
University of Notre Dame,
Notre Dame, Indiana 46556
tel.: 219-631-7789
__________________________________________________________________
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 06:51:56 -0200
From: Savage/Tabachnick <glsavage@erols.com>
Subject: Re: Stone's Family, Sex and Marriage
Alan MacFarlane wrote a lengthy and detailed review critiquing Stone's
Family, Sex and Marriage in History and Theory 18, 1 (1979): 103-25.
Gail Savage
History Department
St. Mary's College of Maryland
glsavage@osprey.smcm.edu
__________________________________________________________________
From: "Donna Larsen" <ladydonna85@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Cases of Intersex
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 07:38:18 PST
You want to bet Gentiles still rule. I have a M-F TS girlfriend who has had
the surgery. She still faces all kinds of discrimination, on a daily basis.
If she had to go to court I am not sure how she would fair, but at least
out here, she still gets sired sometimes, she gets carded at women only
events.
__________________________________________________________________
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 21:11:23 -0600
From: Bob <suannschafer@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Cases of Intersex
I've been following this "gender bending" with great interest and
wondering about its relation to our own time. In the seventeenth
century an individual wearing the highly codified men's clothes of
the time with the equally highly codified women's accessories must
have appeared pretty strange -- almost invokes the image of a Monty
Python skit or the Boys in the Hall.
But what really concerns me is the disagreement as to the nature of
an individual's genitals -- and the subsequent manipulation of the
malformed genitals of infants closer to our own time in order to fix
the sex of such individuals. The current preoccupation with fixing
one's sex/gender would seem to have precedents in this case in which
it would appear that the "community" determined this particular
individual's sex couldn't be fixed and to distinguish this individual
arbitarily imposed conventions of costume in order to fix in fact the
ambiguity of this individual's sex. Pity that our own, less
draconian time can't live with the ambiguity.
Group thoughts?
__________________________________________________________________
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2000 21:18:10 -0600
From: Bob <suannschafer@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Cases of Intersex
Speaking of discrimination, there's the case in South Texas
(admittedly not the most enlightened arena -- apologies to all),
where a judge ruled that a transsexual (M to F) woman could not sue
for malpractice the physician allegedly responsible for the death of
her husband, because the state of Texas does not recognize male/male
marriage. If ever there's a reason to legalize gay marriage on this
side of the pond that's one.
__________________________________________________________________
Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 10:24:22 -0500
From: David Nicholas Harley <David.N.Harley.4@nd.edu>
Subject: Re: Cases of Intersex
Bob (?) wrote:
>I've been following this "gender bending" with great interest and
>wondering about its relation to our own time. In the seventeenth
>century an individual wearing the highly codified men's clothes of
>the time with the equally highly codified women's accessories must
>have appeared pretty strange -- almost invokes the image of a Monty
>Python skit or the Boys in the Hall.
David Harley comments:
The Virginian case might perhaps best be contextualized amid contemporary
English anxieties about the blurring of gender lines between the sexes.
Among many discussions of effeminate men and roaring girls, see, for
example, two celebrated pamphlets of 1620: "Hic Mulier: or, The Man-Woman";
"Haec Vir: or, The Womanish-Man".
David Harley,
Dept. of History,
University of Notre Dame,
Notre Dame, Indiana 46556
tel.: 219-631-7789
__________________________________________________________________
Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 08:57:34 -0800
From: Anne M Dietrich <amdma@telus.net>
Subject: child sexual abuse
Hello,
I am new to the list -- I am a PhD student in Psychology at the
University of British Columbia, Canada, and my dissertation is on sexual
abuse of children.
I am seeking references/information, and am also interested in
discussion on the history of sexual abuse of children, including the
effects on the child's developing sexuality.
Thanks,
Anne Dietrich
__________________________________________________________________
Delivered-To: mailing list histsex@listbot.com
Subject: Admin stuff
Histsex:For historians of sexuality - http://homepages.primex.co.uk/~lesleyah
As the problem of RCPT messages being disseminated to the list seems to
have ceased, I am taking the list back off moderation.
New list members (and others) are invited to post an introduction about
themselves to the list.
Anyone interested in being included in the History of Sexuality Research
Interests Register should e-mail me direct on lesleyah@primex.co.uk
Lesley Hall
histsex-owner@listbot.com
__________________________________________________________________
Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2000 02:05:26 +0000
From: Ianthe <ianthe@duende.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: child sexual abuse
In message <38AD79FE.EB8BCF12@telus.net>, Anne M Dietrich
<amdma@telus.net> writes
>Histsex:For historians of sexuality - http://homepages.primex.co.uk/~lesleyah
>
>Hello,
>
>I am new to the list -- I am a PhD student in Psychology at the
>University of British Columbia, Canada, and my dissertation is on sexual
>abuse of children.
If it's a Phd, shouldn't the topic be a little better defined ?
That's a huge topic.
>the history of sexual abuse of children
Moral Panic : Changing Concepts of the Child Molester
in Modern America. By Philip Jenkins. Yale University
Press, 1998. 304pp. ISBN 0-300-07387-9.
>, including the
>effects on the child's developing sexuality.
Bausermann and Rind did a large meta-analysis of 'effects' studies
recently:
Bruce Rind, Philip Tromovitch, and Robert Bausermann.
A Meta-Analytic Examination of Assumed Properties of Child Sexual Abuse.
Psychological Bulletin, Vol 124, No 1, pp. 22-53. 1998.
Yours
--
Ianthe Duende
__________________________________________________________________
Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 20:39:07 -0800
From: Anne M Dietrich <amdma@telus.net>
Subject: Re: child sexual abuse
Dear Ianthe,
Yes, my dissertation topic is more tightly defined, however, my dissertation
research does not pertain to history of sexual abuse per se, and I didn't want to
bore the list with the details (and it did not seem germane to the list focus).
One of the foci of one of my comprehensive examinations includes the history of
sexual abuse, though. Moreover, I am simply interested in the history of sexual
abuse, independently of my comprehensive exams.
I have read Florence Rush, Lloyd deMause, Freud, Janet, Masson, Malcolm,
Krafft-Ebing (his focus is perpetrators, however. My focus is on the children, not
the perpetrators). I am particularly interested in original works (e.g., Janet,
Freud, Krafft-Ebing).
Regarding the Rind et al meta-analysis, it has become a contentious issue, and
there are methodological difficulties with the study. Much of the contention
surrounds their apparent finding that child sexual abuse is not necessarily
damaging to the child, which may be reflective of societal denial of the
harmfulness of abuse. It can also be due to the effects of abuse itself-- for
example, if the individuals who participate in the studies are inclined to numb
their feelings (one aftereffect of trauma), they may be less likely to evidence
distress on measures of adverse outcome, etc. There are so many possible reasons
for the findings, such that I am skeptical in just accepting them as depicted by
the authors (the value of critical thinking)
In terms of history -- in Krafft-Ebing's time, there was, of course, the view of
moral degeneracy, and apparently, there was the view that not only were pedophiles
"morally degenerate," so were the victims. I have read accounts of a Dr. Zimbaco,
who had an institutional treatment protocol for curing masturbation in children --
he would cauterize their genitalia (children with a history of sexual abuse may
engage in excessive masturbation -- this is documented in case studies), however,
during the 19th C, the medical establishment did not make the connection, and,
perhaps following in the footsteps of the Medievel views of sex and masturbation,
masturbation was viewed as sinful and as a sign of mental illness. I am interested
in hearing others' views on this entire topic.
Also, are you aware of any other original works on this topic, other than those
few I have mentioned?
Thanks,
Anne
__________________________________________________________________
Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2000 15:46:10 +1100
From: Hera Cook <hera.cook@history.usyd.edu.au>
Subject: Re: child sexual abuse
Hi Ianthe,
Do you have any suggestions of recent references on the child's developing
sexuality outside the context of abuse? - especially a meta-analysis - and thanks
for the ref below.
Regards,
Hera
-
Hera Cook
History Department
MacCallum Building A17
University of Sydney
NSW 2006
Australia
Phone 61 2 9351 2862, Fax 61 2 9351 3918
__________________________________________________________________
Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2000 21:00:41 -0800
From: Anne <amdma@telus.net>
Subject: Re: child sexual abuse
Dear Hera,
The work of Frank Putnam is a good resource -- he has found some hormonal differences
in a group of sexually abused girls compared to non-sexually abused girls. The
sexually abused girls had 5 times as much testosterone and 3 times as much
androestradiol than the non sexually abused girls. There is another article on
developing sexuality by Penolope Trickett and Frank Putnam (an older article. If you
would like the complete reference, pls let me know and I will look it up). Also,
Fish-Murray and van der Kolk have done some TAT studies with sexually abused
children, finding an increase in sexually provocative play following presentation
with some TAT cards.
Anne
__________________________________________________________________
From: "Lisa Cardyn" <lcardyn@email.msn.com>
Subject: Re: child sexual abuse
Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2000 00:16:00 -0500
> If it's a Phd, shouldn't the topic be a little better defined ?
> That's a huge topic.
>
> >the history of sexual abuse of children
Rather than immediately positing that a new list member has an ill-defined
dissertation topic, perhaps we might consider the possibility that she did
not wish to go on at length about her research in an introduction. It seems
we could stand to be a bit more welcoming to someone offering a polite
self-introduction than to launch into a challenge to their capacity to
formulate an appropriate dissertation topic.
For my part, at least, I'd be interested in hearing more about Anne's
research -- the time period covered, central primary sources consulted,
theoretical approach, etc. Please feel free to respond off-list.
Lisa Cardyn
Yale University
__________________________________________________________________
From: "Chris Willis" <chris@chriswillis.freeserve.co.uk>
Subject: Re: child sexual abuse
Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2000 09:44:55 -0000
Hi!
>Rather than immediately positing that a new list member has an ill-defined
>dissertation topic, perhaps we might consider the possibility that she did
>not wish to go on at length about her research in an introduction
Well said Lisa! I second this wholeheartedly!
All the best
Chris
=========================================
Chris Willis
English Dept
Birkbeck College
Malet Street
London WC1E 7HX
Chris@chriswillis.freeserve.co.uk
http://www.chriswillis.freeserve.co.uk/
=========================================
__________________________________________________________________
From: Swamp1800@aol.com
Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2000 08:55:30 EST
Subject: Re: Stone's Family, Sex and Marriage
Thanks to all for insights on Stone's book and for leading to me to other
sources on the topic. Perhaps now I will be able to wade through his
generalities, gossip and charts with a stouter heart.
Bob
__________________________________________________________________
From: "Lesley Hall" <lesleyah@primex.co.uk>
Subject: Re: child sexual abuse
Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2000 15:24:46 -0000
On recent historiography of child sexual abuse: Louise Jackson's superb
Child Abuse in Victorian England is now out from UCL Press/Routledge. Carol
Smart is also working in this area, taking the story forward into the C20th.
There is a panel on the topic at the forthcoming European Social Science
History Conference in Amstersdam, in the 'Sexuality' strand, and I think
abstracts of all 3 papers (Jackson, Smart, and Roger Davidson on Scotland)
are posted on the conference site, http://www.iisg.nl/ESSHC
Lesley Hall
lesleyah@primex.co.uk
website http://homepages.primex.co.uk/~lesleyah
__________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: child sexual abuse
Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2000 08:19:10 -0800
From: "andrei-f" <andrei-f@goplay.com>
On a purely anecdotal note, the earliest record of child abuse that I
have been able to come up with is the rape of Chrysippus by Laius. I
consider it such because it was recognized as abuse and punished. If
anyone is aware of an earlier incident I would love to hear about it.
Andrei
__________________________________________________________________
Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2000 17:28:39 +0000
From: Ianthe <ianthe@duende.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: child sexual abuse
In message <38AE2012.930CDE9C@history.usyd.edu.au>, Hera Cook
<hera.cook@history.usyd.edu.au> writes
>
>Hi Ianthe,
>Do you have any suggestions of recent references on the
>child's developing sexuality outside the context of abuse? -
>especially a meta-analysis - and thanks for the ref below.
>
>Regards,
>Hera
Hi Hera. There is a web-accessible paper which would probably
be pertinent to an attempt to define 'baseline' sexual activity
by Western children:
* Full version of the recent _Pediatrics_ journal's paper
(PEDIATRICS; electronic pages (1998 ; 101(4) : e9) on
children's sexuality:
http://www.pediatrics.org/cgi/content/full/101/4/e9
[ A new survey of the exhibited sexual behaviours of more than
1,000 ethnically-diverse children, aged from 2 to 12, showing
that sexual activity is part of normal child development. ]
Also:
McClintock, Martha & Herdt, Gil.
Rethinking puberty: The development of sexual attraction.
CURRENT DIRECTIONS IN PSYCHOLOGICAL SCIENCE (Cambridge University
Press, England.) vol.5, pp. 178-183, (December, 1996)
[ "Recent findings from three distinct and significant studies
have pointed to the age of 10 as the mean age of first sexual
attraction... the (retrospectively) reported mean age of
first attraction was the same for heterosexually as
for homosexually identified adults. [...]
The finding is confirmed by the data of three very different
studies. Two of them polled adults nationwide (U.S.), with a mean
age around 37, while the other was a survey of Chicago teens,
mean age 18. Given major differences in the populations and the
methodology, the consistency of reported mean age of first
attraction is remarkable and significant." ]
And:
Martinson, F., The Sexual Life of Children. Westport, Conn.
Bergin and Garvey, 1994. ISBN: 0-89789-376-X
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/089789376X/qid%3D950981051/102-5770242-9392051
Goldman, R. "Show Me Yours !" - Children Talking About Sex.
London. Penguin, 1988.
Also I remembered another "effects" meta-analysis, which was:
Constantine, L. and Martinson, F. Children And Sex -
new findings, new perspectives.</i> Little Brown and
Co. Boston, 1981. ISBN 0 316 15335 1.
[ See Constantine's chapter, "The Effects of Early Sexual
Experiences: a review and synthesis of research" ]
Other relevant history-oriented items are:
* Canes, Berets and Gangsta Rap: Disciplining Sexuality In School, 1920-1995:
http://www2.waikato.ac.nz/education/edstudies/middleton/canes.html
(full text)
* "Sissy" boys and "unhappy" girls: child rearing during the Cold War
http://arts.ucsb.edu/~tvc/v09/section1/v09s1.gomes.html (full text)
* The Sensuous Child: Dr. Benjamin Spock and The Sexual Revolution:
http://mdma.mit.edu/henry3/pub/spock.html (full text)
* Stories of Childhood : Shifting Agendas of Child Concern
by Rex Stainton Rogers, Wendy Stainton Rogers.
November 1992. University of Toronto Press. ISBN: 0802069444
* Diana Gittins' recent book _The Child in Question_
[ Chapter: 'Children's Sexuality: Why Do Adults Panic?'. ]
http://www.macmillan-press.co.uk/catalogue/0511/0-333-51109-3.html
Less 'on topic' items of interest might be:
* Anne Higgonet's new book _Pictures of Innocence : The History and
Crisis of Ideal Childhood_
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ISBN=0500280487/002-3500371-9405847
* Michel Foucault, 'The Danger of Child Sexuality'
http://www.mindspring.com/~rainbowchild/foucault.html (full text)
Also, an overview/primer on the social construction of childhood:
http://www.chester.ac.uk/~djones/HCS/conf96/baker.htm
Hope this helps! :)
--
Ianthe Duende
__________________________________________________________________
Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2000 09:51:15 -0800
From: Anne Dietrich <amdma@telus.net>
Subject: Re: child sexual abuse
Dear Andrei,
Please forgive my ignorance. Where can I read the rape of Chrysippus by Laius?
Thanks.
Anne
__________________________________________________________________
Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2000 09:51:35 -0800
From: Anne Dietrich <amdma@telus.net>
Subject: Re: child sexual abuse
Thank you Lesley
__________________________________________________________________
Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2000 13:28:01 +1100
From: Hera Cook <hera.cook@history.usyd.edu.au>
Subject: Re: child sexual abuse
Hi Ianthe,
Thanks for your effort - that is a really fantastic list. Initially I raised the question
not expecting much back but rather because where ever possible I want to remind people
that children's sexuality is not just about adult responses to them. However what you
have given me is what I actually need which I was going to look for in a couple of
months.
Regards,
Hera
Hera Cook
History Department
MacCallum Building A17
University of Sydney
NSW 2006
Australia
Phone 61 2 9351 2862, Fax 61 2 9351 3918
__________________________________________________________________
From: "Lesley Hall" <lesleyah@primex.co.uk>
Subject: Prostitution in Europe and England, 1400-1700
Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2000 12:34:37
Someone on another list I'm on has been enquiring about the above topic =
and I wondered if anyone on this list had any helpful suggestions,
Thanks
Lesley
Lesley Hall
lesleyah@primex.co.uk
website http://homepages.primex.co.uk/~lesleyah
__________________________________________________________________
Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2000 21:22:55 +0100
From: Jens =?iso-8859-1?Q?Rydstr=F6m?= <jens.rydstrom@historia.su.se>
Subject: Homosexuality and bestiality
Hi,
I am new to the list -- I am a PhD-student of history at Stockholm
University and the topic of my dissertation is attitudes to male
homosexuality and bestiality in Sweden 1880-1950. I have studied a number
of court cases concerning violations of Article 18:10 of the Swedish Penal
Code, prohibiting "fornication, which is against nature" and "fornication
with animals", in force until 1944.
Many of the court cases involve abuse of children, since the law
did not have any age limits - "unnatural fornication" was punishable with a
maximum of two years of hard labour, whether with an adult or with a child.
For the moment I am interested in the legal development that made sexual
crimes to become regarded as crimes against a person instead of crimes
against morality. Reading suggestions?
I am also involved in a comparative study of criminal law and
homosexuality in the Nordic countries, together with Wilhelm von Rosen
(Denmark), Kati Mustola (Finland) and Martin Halsos (Norway). (We have
failed to find an Icelandic member to the project, so if anyone knows
anybody, please tell us.)
For those of you interested in more information about my
dissertation project, there is a presentation of it in English at my home
page, the address of which will appear below.
Best regards
Jens Rydström
Jens Rydström tel: +46-8-84 50 60 (h)
Dept of History tel: +46-8-674 71 05 (w)
Stockholm University fax: +46-8-16 75 48 (w)
S-106 91 Stockholm
Sweden
jens.rydstrom@historia.su.se
http://www.historia.su.se/safari/artiklar/rydstrom.htm
Queerseminariets hemsida:
http://www.kvinfo.su.se/Andra/queersem.htm
__________________________________________________________________
Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2000 11:23:56 -0600
From: Bob <suannschafer@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: child sexual abuse
Hera wrote:
"... where ever possible I want to remind people that children's
sexuality is not just about adult responses to them."
Thanks for the possibly provocative but intensely honest observation,
one I find particularly intriguing. I look forward to further
discussion.
After lurking for months, perhaps it's time to introduce myself. I'm
completing a dissertation on the critical responses to Robert
Mapplethorpe's nudes.
Bob Bambic
__________________________________________________________________
Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2000 09:30:14 -0800
From: Anne Dietrich <amdma@telus.net>
Subject: Re: child sexual abuse
I am interested in hearing more about this as well. What is children's sexuality
about, from a child's perspective? Has anyone researched this? Thanks.
Anne
__________________________________________________________________
Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2000 16:00:14 -0500
From: David Nicholas Harley <David.N.Harley.4@nd.edu>
Subject: Re: child sexual abuse
Anne Dietrich wrote:
...I am simply interested in the history of sexual abuse...are you aware of
any other original works on this topic, other than those few I have mentioned?
David Harley remarks:
The Canadian philosopher of science Ian Hacking has written perceptive
essays on the recent history of the concept of child abuse (e.g. in
Critical Inquiry 17, 1991, pp. 253-88, and in his book The Social
Construction of What?, chapter 5), and his book on the concept of multiple
personality, Rewriting the Soul (1995), is relevant to the various methods
of "recovering memories".
For a somewhat totalizing view of the ubiquity of child abuse and its role
in human history, see http://www.psychohistory.com
Incidentally, it would be interesting to hear from historians of Germany if
they think Lloyd de Mause's views on German childrearing, summarized on the
above website, hold up empirically.
David Harley,
Dept. of History,
University of Notre Dame,
Notre Dame, Indiana 46556
tel.: 219-631-7789
__________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: child sexual abuse
Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2000 15:34:25 -0800
From: "andrei-f" <andrei-f@goplay.com>
Hello,
I am in the process of writing a book on gay myths and folk tales
(yes, I welcome people interested in reading the manuscript) and I
have been digging through my collection of "ancient" homoerotic
images (anything pre 20th century qualifies).
I was struck by some paintings (Qing Dynasty) of Chinese children
having sex with each other - they were so innocent and playful, as if
the notion of sin had not yet been invented. They came to mind
apropos of "child's perspective."
I will soon be posting them in the "Chinese hall" of the Androphile
Project website, but I'll be happy to send one out to any interested
parties.
Regards,
Andrei
__________________________________________________________________
Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2000 16:00:51 -0800
From: Anne Dietrich <amdma@telus.net>
Subject: Re: child sexual abuse
Andrei wrote, in part:
> I was struck by some paintings (Qing Dynasty) of Chinese children
> having sex with each other - they were so innocent and playful, as if
> the notion of sin had not yet been invented. They came to mind
> apropos of "child's perspective."
Ah, this still seems to me to be an adult's perspective of the children. Has
there been any research done that has actually asked children about their views
of sexuality? I think that is the only way one could really know what a child's
perspective is.
Anne
__________________________________________________________________
Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 00:44:01 +0000
From: Ianthe <ianthe@duende.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: child sexual abuse
In message <3.0.1.32.20000220160014.009a9c40@nd.edu>, David Nicholas
Harley <David.N.Harley.4@nd.edu> writes
>The Canadian philosopher of science Ian Hacking has written perceptive
>essays on the recent history of the concept of child abuse (e.g. in
>Critical Inquiry 17, 1991, pp. 253-88,
I thought this was good too. Full citation is:
Hacking, Ian.
_The Making and Moulding of Child Abuse._
Critical Inquiry, 17 (Winter 1991), pp. 252-288.
There was also an excellent follow-up to Hacking's essay:
Clegg, Sue.
_Studying Child Sexual Abuse - Morality or Science ?_
Radical Philosophy, 66 (Spring 1994), pp. 31-39
>Incidentally, it would be interesting to hear from historians of Germany if
>they think Lloyd de Mause's views on German childrearing, summarized on the
>above website, hold up empirically.
Not sure about Germany, but I have talked to people from Japan
who find his lascivious reportage about their alleged customs
rather strange ;)
--
Ianthe Duende
__________________________________________________________________
Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2000 17:13:01 -0800
From: Anne Dietrich <amdma@telus.net>
Subject: Re: child sexual abuse
And then of course there is:
Briere, J. (2997). Treatment of Adults Molested as Children. Beyond Survival. NY:
Springer Verlag.
Freyd, J.J. (1996). Betrayal Trauma. The Logic of Forgetting Childhood Abuse.
Harvard University Press.
Herman, J. (1992). Trauma and Recovery. NY: Basic Books
Johnson, K (1989). Trauma in the lives of Children.CA: Hunter House
Terr, L. (1976). Too scared to cry. Psychic Trauma in Childhood. NY: Basic Books.
van der Kolk et al (Eds.) (1996). Traumatic Stress. The Effects of Overwhelming
Experience on Mind, Body, and Society. Guilford Press
and so, so many others, wherein child abuse is viewed, not as a concept, but as
reality.
Anne
__________________________________________________________________
Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 02:57:13 +0000
From: Ianthe <ianthe@duende.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: child sexual abuse
In message <38B08033.B978C5CC@telus.net>, Anne Dietrich
<amdma@telus.net> writes
I thought of another one:
Allen J. Frantzen
_The Role of Children in the Regulation of Sexuality
in Anglo-Saxon England_
http://www.luc.edu/faculty/afrantz/AllSeafarer/child/frantzen.html
(full text)
I hope people aren't getting bored by all this ;)
--
Anne asked:
>Ah, this still seems to me to be an adult's perspective of the children. Has
>there been any research done that has actually asked children about their views
>of sexuality?
I already gave this cite in my earlier response to Hera:
Goldman, R. _"Show Me Yours !" - Children Talking About Sex._
London. Penguin, 1988.
Plus you might also usefully look at the eminently readable
70s ethnographic fieldwork/interviews of Opie (already of
historical value, imho):
Iona Opie. _The People in The Playground._ Oxford University
Press, 1993.
And the following might perhaps be relevant, if it's not too
"conceptual" for you ;-) re: consent & bodies,
Priscilla Anderson. _Children's Consent to Surgery'_.
Oxford University Press, 1994.
>I think that is the only way one could really know what a child's
>perspective is.
But would adults listen to them if they gave the "wrong" answers?
"One woman I know enjoyed sex with an uncle all through her
childhood and never realized that anything was unusual until
she went away to school. What disturbed her then was not what
her uncle had done, but the attitude of her teachers and the
school psychiatrist. They assumed that she must have been
traumatized and disgusted and therefore in need of very special
help."
-- Germaine Greer - "Seduction is a four-letter word"
(In: The Madwoman's Underclothes (1987).
"My own initiation came long before I was legally adult. Though a
number of males around my age offered to participate, a
woman ten years my senior was 'responsible', at my invitation and
encouragement. The only fault I find with that part of my
sexual education was the limit her guilt and fear put on our
pleasure, the heterosexual pressure even she felt required to put
on me. What she did "for my own good" caused both of us pain.
If I were to improve on that experience now, it would not
be to protect children from adult seduction but to make adults
easier to seduce, less burdened with fear or guilt, less defended
by hypocrisy. If we accepted sexual behaviour between children
and adults, we would be far more able to protect our
children from abuse and exploitation than we are now."
-- Jane Rule, feminist and novelist, author of 'Desert Hearts',
in "Teaching Sexuality" in Flaunting It.
"I do sympathize very much with incest and with people loving one
another. I really truly believe in my heart of hearts that
when two people love each other, gender and age don't matter and
that those people have a right to heaven and earth between
themselves. I see nothing wrong with a 13-year-old wanting to
sleep with an older man... We will not face that fact that these
kids are maturing three years earlier than we did in the past...
They don't want to play with dolls."
-- bestselling novelist Anne Rice, in VIBE.
"When it comes to children, the first assumption is that their
sexuality can never be directed towards an adult. They are
deemed incapable of self expression. They are believed to be
immune to sexuality. But it is quite difficult to lay down
barriers [particularly since] it could be that the child,
with his own sexuality, may have desired the adult."
-- Michel Foucault, Semiotext(e), issue 42.
Yours,
--
Ianthe Duende
__________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: child sexual abuse
Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2000 19:35:15 -0800
From: "andrei-f" <andrei-f@goplay.com>
I knew this was going to come up. As far as I can tell however, such
strict criteria end the discussion. To the best of my knowledge all
that is from ancient China (and most other places) has been filtered
at least once through adult eyes. I do think a great deal can be
inferred from available evidence. If you have an alternative I would
love to know about it.
Andrei
__________________________________________________________________
Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2000 19:43:00 -0800
From: Anne Dietrich <amdma@telus.net>
Subject: Re: child sexual abuse
But this does not make any sense at all to me. If we look at art from the
perspective of an adult, we are looking from the perspective of an adult! Any
interpretations or meanings or whatever have you, is from an adult perspective.
If you want to know what children really perceive, ask children, rather than
project from the standpoint of an adult.
Anne
andrei-f wrote:
> I knew this was going to come up. As far as I can tell however, such
> strict criteria end the discussion. To the best of my knowledge all
> that is from ancient China (and most other places) has been filtered
> at least once through adult eyes. I do think a great deal can be
> inferred from available evidence. If you have an alternative I would
> love to know about it.
>
> Andrei
__________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: child sexual abuse
Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2000 20:02:41 -0800
From: "andrei-f" <andrei-f@goplay.com>
Sorry, I just realized we were talking at cross-purposes. I too would
be curious to know what children today thought of such images, but I
am afraid to ask (in this political climate).
Andrei
__________________________________________________________________
Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2000 19:40:17 -0800
From: Anne Dietrich <amdma@telus.net>
Subject: Pedophilic haven?
Have I stumbled onto a pedophilic haven?
__________________________________________________________________
From: "Jennifer Ailles" <jailles@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: child sexual abuse
Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2000 20:18:06 PST
Even if one asks a child, however defined, directly about their perspective
there is still the issue of the child's perspective being recorded, almost
certainly, by an adult who would then frame, edit, and re-present the
child's perspective--hence the perspective is still likely to be filtered.
Jennifer
__________________________________________________________________
Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2000 22:44:28 -0600
From: Bob <suannschafer@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: child sexual abuse
>Allen J. Frantzen
>_The Role of Children in the Regulation of Sexuality
>in Anglo-Saxon England_
>http://www.luc.edu/faculty/afrantz/AllSeafarer/child/frantzen.html
>(full text)
>
>I hope people aren't getting bored by all this ;)
Not all of us are getting bored. Not all of us have the password to
access the above citation.
__________________________________________________________________
Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 04:59:20 +0000
From: Ianthe <ianthe@duende.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: child sexual abuse
In message <v0421010bb4d672e65468@[38.27.192.250]>, Bob
<suannschafer@earthlink.net> writes
>Histsex:For historians of sexuality - http://homepages.primex.co.uk/~lesleyah
>
>>Allen J. Frantzen
>>_The Role of Children in the Regulation of Sexuality
>>in Anglo-Saxon England_
>>http://www.luc.edu/faculty/afrantz/AllSeafarer/child/frantzen.html
>>(full text)
>>
>>I hope people aren't getting bored by all this ;)
>
>Not all of us are getting bored. Not all of us have the password to
>access the above citation.
Ha! Isn't that loco! They have indeed password protected it.
I mean, it's not like it was the key to Louis Freeh's pantie
drawer, now is it? ;)
--
Ianthe Duende
__________________________________________________________________
Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 16:16:56 +1100
From: Hera Cook <hera.cook@history.usyd.edu.au>
Subject: Re: child sexuality
Hi,
I wrote the following reply to Anne - before reading the other posts - I would like
to say that there are certainly people around who have had sexual experience with
adults and not been traumatised by it. And it may be that in a society that is as
profoundly negative about sex as ours has been a gentle and loving exposure to sex in
that context has been better than the alternatives. But having watched as a 16 year
old, middle-aged adult men behave abusively to young women of my own age I do not
believe that the risk is worth taking. The sexual ethics of this society favour
emotional and physical abuse so strongly that I don't myself believe that there are
any circumstances in this society in which adult sexual contact with children should
be acceptable. I also don't think that lesbians and gay men are necessarily less
exploitive - and I question the worship of young perfect bodies anyway.
All this is difficult and we must accept that there so many histories that are
exceptions. And look how instantly the posts have moved away from children's own
separate experience.
Hera
----------
Hi Anne,
I am not sure what the following concept or the reference list is in response to -
'and so, so many others, wherein child abuse is viewed, not as a concept, but as
reality.'
Are you suggesting that you don't think that children have an independent sexuality
aside from adult abuse?
I do agree absolutely that it is important to do research into adult physical or even
mental invasion (abuse) of children's physical or psychic space against their will or
in a context where adult love only comes when attached to behavour the child would
not otherwise desire.
However I believe that our bodies both when we are children and once we have grown to
adulthood are potential sources of pleasure and that children can and do discover and
enjoy this pleasure on their own account. I don't want to reduce this to the
dimension of preventing abuse but I do think there is a possibility that in a society
in which childhood sexuality is accepted then abusive use of power over children may
be able to be separated from sexuality.
On the other hand the British evidence from the early 20th century suggests a society
in which the defintion of sexuality had been extended to include almost all physical
gestures of tenderness, and all sensuality - one starts to think a cat or dog could
be stroked with more physical love than a child. To offer a generalisation, I think
human beings are happier when they have opportunities to be touched and touch others
and the best way to make this safe is to allow children to discover their own
positive boundaries.In other words children in a society that permits children to
learn what creates pleasure in their body of their own accord are more likely to be
able to resist abuse and to be less sexually traumatised if it takes place.
If you disagree with this how do you conceive of people as learning about their own
bodies and sexuality?
Regards,
Hera
Hera Cook
History Department
MacCallum Building A17
University of Sydney
NSW 2006
Australia
Phone 61 2 9351 2862, Fax 61 2 9351 3918
__________________________________________________________________
Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2000 20:28:28 -0800
From: Anne Dietrich <amdma@telus.net>
Subject: Re: child sexual abuse
Not if the adult refrained from framing, editing, and re-interpreting, etc.,
right? What about the idea of just recording the child's words verbatim? Of
course, if one wants to know what children thought about sexuality in a
historical sense, then this would seem impossible. Another methodological
approach is to observe children's play, and simple record the behaviors without
adding anything to it (i.e., interpretations, etc).
Anne
__________________________________________________________________
From: MillerJimE@aol.com
Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2000 23:31:55 EST
Subject: Re: Pedophilic haven?
In a message dated 02/20/2000 10:13:54 PM Central Standard Time,
amdma@telus.net writes:
<< Have I stumbled onto a pedophilic haven? >>
I hope not. However, I would like to make a few distinctions. It seems
to me that we have been using the terms "child" and "pedophilia"
indiscriminately. There is a world of difference between sexual situations
involving pre-adolescents and sexual situations involving adolescents. The
former do not have the hormones which drive many adolesents not only to
accept sexual advances from adults, but to make them as well. Also there is
a world of difference if the "child" is a 12-year-old adolescent or a
17-year-old adolescent (legal age here being 18). With every passing year
the adolescent usually becomes more confident in dealing with adults as a
near equal.
Should we wish to discuss sex with or among minors it is important to
state what age group is the topic of discussion.
Jim Miller
__________________________________________________________________
Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2000 21:39:13 -0800
From: Anne Dietrich <amdma@telus.net>
Subject: Re: child sexuality
Thank you for your thoughtful post, Hera. First, I wholeheartedly agree that children
need touch -- with a caveat: They do not need sexual molestation or betrayal. Children
need to be cuddled and caressed, but not abused and exploited for the adult's selfish
sexual pleasure. An adult touching a child in a sexual manner is exploiting that child's
trust, whether the child knows it or not as a child, and whether or not the adult grows
up to rationalize the abuse as acceptable (as in the quotes posted to this list earlier
tonight). You seem to read these quotes as that these people have not been traumatized by
it -- I am not so ready to accept that point of view. They may simply have introjected
the beliefs of their abusers -- normalizing sexual abuse and not being cognizant of
possible damage. They may be in denial. They may be utilizing posttraumatic avoidance and
numbing. If they faced the actual harmfulness of the abuse, it may well be too painful
for them to bear, and so they need to minimize and deny and rationalize.
Secondly, I think children should be allowed to explore their own bodies sexually. And
yes, I believe children do, and should, have an independent sexuality from adult abuse.
It is adult abuse of children that I object to, and it is the denial that sexual abuse of
children is harmful that I object to. One of the references that was suggested to me
framed child abuse as a "concept" in its title. This suggests to me that the author is
minimizing the reality of abuse, by referring to it as a "concept" rather than as an
actuality.
Anne
__________________________________________________________________
Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2000 23:44:16 -0600
From: Bob <suannschafer@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: child sexuality
>Children
>need to be cuddled and caressed, but not abused and exploited for
>the adult's selfish
>sexual pleasure.
All "sexual pleasure" is "selfish."
>And
>yes, I believe children do, and should, have an independent sexuality ...
Agreed.
__________________________________________________________________
Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2000 21:45:17 -0800
From: Anne Dietrich <amdma@telus.net>
Subject: Re: Pedophilic haven?
Actually, Jim, research shows that sexual abuse of adolescents (including those
who have reached puberty) can be as damaging as abuse prior to the onset of
puberty. Incestuous abuse, and abuse involving penetration and longstanding
duration is particularly damaging. Just because an adolescent has sexual desires
does not mean sexual abuse of them is not harmful. Often, children and teens who
have been abused will act out the abuse in an attempt to master the trauma -- it
has nothing at all to do with hormones or lust or desire. It has to do with
traumatic re-enactments in attempts at mastery. Often the re-enactments are just
as abusive as the original event(s). The appropriate word for adults who desire
adolescents is hebephiles.
Anne
__________________________________________________________________
Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2000 21:12:29 -0800
From: Anne Dietrich <amdma@telus.net>
Subject: Re: child sexual abuse
Ianthe wrote:
> Ha! Isn't that loco! They have indeed password protected it.
> I mean, it's not like it was the key to Louis Freeh's pantie
> drawer, now is it? ;)
:) Okay, I gotta ask -- who is Louis Freeh?
__________________________________________________________________
Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2000 23:27:03 -0600
From: Bob <suannschafer@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: child sexual abuse
>Not if the adult refrained from framing, editing, and re-interpreting, etc.,
>right? What about the idea of just recording the child's words verbatim?
The moment the child enters into the (patriarchal) world of language,
there is a "frame," an "edit," an "interpretation."
>Of
>course, if one wants to know what children thought about sexuality in a
>historical sense, then this would seem impossible. Another methodological
>approach is to observe children's play, and simple record the
>behaviors without
>adding anything to it (i.e., interpretations, etc).
Is it so "simple" to record behavior WITHOUT interpretation?
In short, it's all interpretation.
__________________________________________________________________
Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2000 21:57:36 -0800
From: Anne Dietrich <amdma@telus.net>
Subject: Re: child sexuality
Dear Bob,
In mutual, healthy, adult sexual relationships (whether heterosexual or
homosexual), there is pleasure in giving and pleasure in receiving. Sexual
behavior between mutually consenting adults need not be selfish. It can be very
loving and giving (and pleasurable for just that reason).
Anne
Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2000 18:52:11 -0800
From: Heather Lee Miller Subject: Re: Prostitution in Europe and England, 1400-1700
>> Someone on another list I'm on has been enquiring about the above
topic and I wondered if anyone on this list had any helpful
suggestions,
The See also (this is from a somewhat dated bib I have here at home):
Brackett, John K. "The Florentine Onesta and the Control of Prostitution,
1403-1680," Bullough,Vern and James Brundage, eds. Karras, Ruth M. "The Regulation of Brothels in Later Medieval England,"
Karras, Ruth M. King, Laura S. "Blessed When They Were Riggish: Shakespeare's Cleopatra
and Christianity's Penitent Prostitutes," Otis, Leah L. Quaife, G. R. Rosenthal, Margaret F. Rossiaud, Jacques. Rousseau, G.S. and Roy Porter, eds. I hope these help.
Best,
Heather
***************************************************
Heather Lee Miller
Ph.D. Candidate
Ohio State University
Department of History
and
Managing Editor
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