HISTSEX ARCHIVES: 1-18 April 2000
© Lesley Hall and list contributors
NB During this month there were various server problems, thus the chronological sequence is not consistent and some messages may appear twice.
From: "Rikki Wilde" <rikki.wilde@student.adelaide.edu.au>
Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2000 00:43:37 GMT
Subject: gay men lesbians and psychology/psychiatry
Hi everyone, this is just to intoduce myself and call on your expertise. My
name is Rikki Wilde, I am a graduate student at the University of Adelaide,
South Australia and I am currently engaged in writing a PhD thesis about HIV/AIDS,
gender and sexuality, theory and cultural significations.
I have a particular interest at the moment in the stories of gay men and women
and their experiences with psychiatry and psychology. I have read the pioneering
work of the gay historian Martin Duberman and his memoirs, "Cures". I wonder
if anyone could tell me about academic journal articles concerning pschiatry
and homosexuality, especially from history or cultural studies perspective?
I have been reading lately about Irving Bieber and Charles Socarides and aversion
therapy. Many thanks in advance, Rikki Wilde.
___________________________________________________________________
Date: Sun, 2 Apr 2000 21:04:00 -0700 (PDT)
From: Lisa Diguardi <diguardi@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: gay men lesbians and psychology/psychiatry
If you haven't already, check www.haworthpressinc.com.
The Journal of Homosexuality has had many articles on
psychology, and Vol 36 Number 1 1998 has a great
article on the history of reparative therapy. They
also have a journal called Journal of Gay and Lesbian
Psychotherapy.
-Lisa
___________________________________________________________________From: "Lesley Hall"<lesleyah@primex.co.uk>
Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2000 09:28:43 gmt
Subject: Re: gay men lesbians and psychology/psychiatry
Rikki Wilde wrote
>I have a particular interest at the moment in the stories of gay men and women
>and their experiences with psychiatry and psychology.
Professor Michael King of the Royal Free Hospital has recently received funding
to investigate psychiatric 'treatment' of gay men and women in the UK post-World
War II. I must mention this list to him!
Lesley Hall
lesleyah@primex.co.uk
homepage: http://homepages.primex.co.uk/~lesleyah
___________________________________________________________________Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2000 11:11:10 +0100
From: cristina santos <cristina@sonata.fe.uc.pt>
Subject: Re: gay men lesbians and psychology/psychiatry
Rikki Wilde wrote:
>I have a particular interest at the moment in the stories of gay men and
women
>and their experiences with psychiatry and psychology.
You'll probably know this one, but just in case take a look at the web page
of The Association of Gay and Lesbian Psychiatrists (AGLP)
http://www.aglp.org/
And, please, do keep us informed on the results of your research!
Best wishes,
Cris
Ana Cristina Santos
Centre for Social Studies
Apartado 3087
3001-401 Coimbra - Portugal
Phone 00 351 239855583
___________________________________________________________________
Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2000 18:31:56 +0200
From: "Erik O. Ruendal" <erik@ruendal.tue.bawue.de>
Subject: Der Arbeitskreis fuer interdisziplinaere Maennerforschung (AIM Gender)
Histsex:For historians of sexuality - http://homepages.primex.co.uk/~lesleyah
Sorry for cross-postings and the German-only text. There is information
in English available on the web-site.
Best wishes, Erik Ruendal.
Der Arbeitskreis fuer interdisziplinaere Maennerforschung (AIM
Gender) stellt sich vor:
Maennlichkeit, maennliche Macht, Maennerbuende - in allen kultur-,
geschichts- und sozialwissenschaftlichen Disziplinen nehmen die
Bemuehungen zu, die Kategorie _gender_ in ihrer doppelten Bedeutung
zu untersuchen. Im Juli 1999 ist in Stuttgart ein Arbeitskreis
entstanden, der sich die interdiziplinaere Vernetzung der disparaten
Forschungsprojekte - zunaechst vor allem im deutschsprachigen Raum -
zum Ziel gemacht hat. Er ist offen fuer interessierte
Wissenschaftlerinnen und Wissenschaftler der Kultur-, Geschichts-
und Sozialwissenschaften und strebt eine Kooperation mit schon
bestehenden Netzwerken in diesen Faechern zur Geschlechterforschung
an. Die foermliche Konstitution des Arbeitskreises soll anlaesslich
eines thematisch offenen, mehrtaegigen Kolloquiums im Fruehjahr 2001
in Stuttgart erfolgen.
Wer Interesse an der Mitwirkung hat, kann sich mit PD Dr. Martin
Dinges, Institut fuer Geschichte der Medizin der Robert Bosch
Stiftung, Straussweg 17, D-70184 Stuttgart in Verbindung setzen.
Email: Martin.Dinges@igm-bosch.de
Die Homepage des Arbeitskreises koennen Sie unter
http://www.ruendal.de/aim/gender.html
besuchen.
Mit freundlichen Gruessen, Erik Ruendal.
___________________________________________________________________
From: "Rictor Norton" <norton@rictor.freeserve.co.uk>
Subject: Re: gay men lesbians and psychology/psychiatry
Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2000 14:17:46 +0100
The Board of Trustees of the American Psychiatric Association approved over
the weekend of 18/19 March 2000 the following position statement by its
Commission on Psychotherapy by Psychiatrists (COPP):
American Psychiatric Association
Commission on Psychotherapy by Psychiatrists (COPP)
Position Statement on Therapies Focused on Attempts to Change Sexual
Orientation (Reparative or Conversion Therapies)
Preamble
In December of 1998, the Board of Trustees issued a position statement
that the American Psychiatric Association opposes any psychiatric
treatment, such as "reparative" or conversion therapy, which is based
upon the assumption that homosexuality per se is a mental disorder or
based upon the a priori assumption that a patient should change his/her
sexual homosexual orientation (Appendix 1). In doing so, the APA
joined many other professional organizations that either oppose or are
critical of "reparative" therapies, including the American Academy of
Pediatrics, the American Medical Association, the American
Psychological Association, The American Counseling Association, and the
National Association of Social Workers (1).
The following Position Statement expands and elaborates upon the
statement issued by the Board of Trustees in order to further address
public and professional concerns about therapies designed to change a
patient's sexual orientation or sexual identity. It augments rather
than replaces the 1998 statement.
Position Statement
In the past, defining homosexuality as an illness buttressed society's
moral opprobrium of same-sex relationships (2). In the current social
climate, claiming homosexuality is a mental disorder stems from efforts
to discredit the growing social acceptance of homosexuality as a normal
variant of human sexuality. Consequently, the issue of changing sexual
orientation has become highly politicized. The integration of gays and
lesbians into the mainstream of American society is opposed by those
who fear that such an integration is morally wrong and harmful to the
social fabric. The political and moral debates surrounding this issue
have obscured the scientific data by calling into question the motives
and even the character of individuals on both sides of the issue. This
document attempts to shed some light on this heated issue.
The validity, efficacy and ethics of clinical attempts to change an
individual's sexual orientation have been challenged (3,4,5,6). To
date, there are no scientifically rigorous outcome studies to determine
either the actual efficacy or harm of reparative treatments. There is
sparse scientific data about selection criteria, risks versus benefits
of the treatment, and long-term outcomes of reparative therapies. The
literature consists of anecdotal reports of individuals who have
claimed to change, people who claim that attempts to change were
harmful to them, and others who claimed to have changed and then later
recanted those claims (7,8,9).
With little data about patients, it is possible to evaluate the
theories which rationalize the conduct of "reparative" or conversion
therapies. Firstly, they are at odds with the scientific position of
the American Psychiatric Association which has maintained, since 1973,
that homosexuality per se, is not a mental disorder. The theories of
"reparative" therapists define homosexuality as either a developmental
arrest, a severe form of psychopathology, or some combination of both
(10-15). In recent years, noted practitioners of "reparative therapy"
have openly integrated older psychoanalytic theories that pathologize
homosexuality with traditional religious beliefs condemning
homosexuality (16,17,18).
The earliest scientific criticisms of the early theories and religious
beliefs informing "reparative" or conversion therapies came primarily
from sexology researchers (19-27). Later, criticisms emerged from
psychoanalytic sources as well (28-39). There has also been an
increasing body of religious thought arguing against traditional,
biblical interpretations that condemn homosexuality and which underlie
religious types of "reparative" therapy (40-46).
Recommendations:
1. APA affirms its 1973 position that homosexuality per se is not a
diagnosable mental disorder. Recent publicized efforts to
repathologize homosexuality by claiming that it can be cured are often
guided not by rigorous scientific or psychiatric research, but
sometimes by religious and political forces opposed to a full civil
rights for gay men and lesbians. APA recommends that the APA respond
quickly and appropriately as a scientific organization when claims that
homosexuality is a curable illness are made by political or religious
groups.
2. As a general principle, a therapist should not determine the goal of
treatment either coercively or through subtle influence.
Psychotherapeutic modalities to convert or "repair" homosexuality are
based on developmental theories whose scientific validity is
questionable. Furthermore, anecdotal reports of "cures" are
counterbalanced by anecdotal claims of psychological harm. In the last
four decades, "reparative" therapists have not produced any rigorous
scientific research to substantiate their claims of cure. Until there
is such research available, APA recommends that ethical practitioners
refrain from attempts to change individuals' sexual orientation,
keeping in mind the medical dictum to First, do no harm.
3. The "reparative" therapy literature uses theories that make it
difficult to formulate scientific selection criteria for their
treatment modality. This literature not only ignores the impact of
social stigma in motivating efforts to cure homosexuality, it is a
literature that actively stigmatizes homosexuality as well.
"Reparative" therapy literature also tends to overstate the treatment's
accomplishments while neglecting any potential risks to patients. APA
encourages and supports research in the NIMH and the academic research
community to further determine "reparative" therapy's risks versus its
benefits.
References
(1) National Association for Research and Treatment of Homosexuality,
(1999), American Counseling Association Passes Resolution to Oppose
Reparative Therapy. NARTH Website
(http://www.narth.com/docs/acaresolution.html).
(2) Bayer, R. (1981), Homosexuality and American Psychiatry; The
Politics of Diagnosis. New York: Basic Books.
(3) Haldeman, D. (1991), Sexual orientation conversion therapy for gay
men and lesbians: A scientific examination. In Homosexuality:
Research Implications for Public Policy, ed. J. C. Gonsiorek & J. D.
Weinrich. Newbury Park, CA: Sage Publications, pp. 149-161.
(4) Haldeman, D. (1994), The practice and ethics of sexual orientation
conversion therapy. J. of Consulting and Clin. Psychol., 62(2):221-227.
(5) Brown, L. S. (1996), Ethical concerns with sexual minority
patients. In: Textbook of Homosexuality and Mental Health. ed. R.
Cabaj & T. Stein. Washington, D.C.: American Psychiatric Press, pp.
897-916.
(6) Drescher, J. (1997), What needs changing? Some questions raised by
reparative therapy practices. New York State Psychiatric Society
Bulletin, 40(1):8-10.
(7) Duberman, M. (1991), Cures: A Gay Man's Odyssey. New York: Dutton.
(8) White, M. (1994), Stranger at the Gate: To be Gay and Christian in
America. New York: Simon & Schuster.
(9) Isay, R. (1996), Becoming Gay: The Journey to Self-Acceptance. New
York: Pantheon.
(10) Freud, S. (1905), Three essays on the theory of sexuality.
Standard Edition, 7:123-246. London: Hogarth Press, 1953.
(11) Rado, S. (1940), A critical examination of the concept of
bisexuality. Psychosomatic Medicine, 2:459-467. Reprinted in Sexual
Inversion: The Multiple Roots of Homosexuality, ed. J. Marmor. New
York: Basic Books, 1965, pp. 175-189.
(12) Bieber, I., Dain, H., Dince, P., Drellich, M., Grand, H.,
Gundlach, R., Kremer, M., Rifkin, A., Wilbur, C., & Bieber T. (1962),
Homosexuality: A Psychoanalytic Study. New York: Basic Books.
(13) Socarides, C. (1968), The Overt Homosexual. New York: Grune &
Stratton.
(14) Ovesey, L. (1969), Homosexuality and Pseudohomosexuality. New
York: Science House.
(15) Hatterer, L. (1970), Changing Homosexuality in the Male. New
York: McGraw Hill.
(16) Moberly, E. (1983), Homosexuality: A New Christian Ethic.
Cambridge, UK: James Clarke & Co.
(17) Harvey, J. (1987), The Homosexual Person: New Thinking in
Pastoral Care. San Francisco, CA: Ignatius.
(18) Nicolosi, J. (1991), Reparative Therapy of Male Homosexuality: A
New Clinical Approach. Northvale, NJ: Aronson.
(19) Kinsey, A., Pomeroy, W., & Martin, C. (1948), Sexual Behavior in
the Human Male. Philadelphia, PA: Saunders.
(20) Kinsey, A., Pomeroy, W., & Martin, C. and Gebhard, P. (1953),
Sexual Behavior in the Human Female. Philadelphia, PA: Saunders.
(21) Ford, C. & Beach, F. (1951), Patterns of Sexual Behavior. New
York: Harper.
(22) Hooker, E. (1957), The adjustment of the male overt homosexual. J
Proj Tech, 21:18-31.
(23) Bell, A .& Weinberg, M. (1978), Homosexualities: A Study of
Diversity Among Men and Women. New York: Simon and Schuster.
24) Bell, A., Weinberg, M. & Hammersmith S. (1981), Sexual Preference:
Its Development in Men and Women. Bloomington, IN: Indiana University
Press.
(25) LeVay, S. (1991), A difference in hypothalamic structure between
heterosexual and homosexual men. Science, 253:1034-1037.
(26) Hamer, D., Hu, S., Magnuson, V., Hu, N. & Pattatucci, A. (1993), A
linkage between DNA markers on the X-chromosome and male sexual
orientation. Science, 261:321-327.
(27) Bem, D. (1996), Exotic becomes erotic: A developmental theory of
sexual orientation. Psychol. Review, 103(2):320-335.
28) Marmor, J., ed. (1965), Sexual Inversion: The Multiple Roots of
Homosexuality. New York: Basic Books.
(29) Mitchell, S. (1978), Psychodynamics, homosexuality, and the
question of pathology. Psychiatry, 41:254-263.
(30) Marmor, J., ed. (1980), Homosexual Behavior: A Modern
Reappraisal. New York: Basic Books.
(31) Mitchell, S. (1981), The psychoanalytic treatment of
homosexuality: Some technical considerations. Int. Rev. Psycho-Anal.,
8:63-80.
(32) Morgenthaler, F. (1984), Homosexuality Heterosexuality Perversion,
trans. A. Aebi. Hillsdale, NJ: The Analytic Press, 1988.
(33) Lewes, K. (1988), The Psychoanalytic Theory of Male Homosexuality.
New York: Simon and Schuster. Reissued as Psychoanalysis and Male
Homosexuality (1995), Northvale, NJ: Aronson.
(34) Friedman, R.C. (1988), Male Homosexuality: A Contemporary
Psychoanalytic Perspective. New Haven, CT: Yale University Press.
(35) Isay, R. (1989), Being Homosexual: Gay Men and Their Development.
New York: Farrar, Straus and Giroux.
(36) O'Connor, N. & Ryan, J. (1993), Wild Desires and Mistaken
Identities: Lesbianism & Psychoanalysis. New York: Columbia
University.
(37) Domenici, T. & Lesser, R., eds. (1995) Disorienting Sexuality:
Psychoanalytic Reappraisals of Sexual Identities. New York: Routledge.
(38) Magee, M. & Miller, D. (1997), Lesbian Lives: Psychoanalytic
Narratives Old and New. Hillsdale, NJ: The Analytic Press.
(39) Drescher, J. (1998) Psychoanalytic Therapy and The Gay Man.
Hillsdale, NJ: The Analytic Press.
(40) Boswell, J. (1980), Christianity, Social Tolerance and
Homosexuality. Chicago, IL: University of Chicago Press.
(41) McNeil, J. (1993), The Church and the Homosexual, Fourth Edition.
Boston, MA: Beacon.
(42) Pronk, P. (1993), Against Nature: Types of Moral Argumentation
Regarding Homosexuality. Grand Rapids, MI: William B. Eerdmans.
(43) Boswell, J. (1994), Same-Sex Unions in Premodern Europe. New
York: Villard Books.
(44) Helminiak, D. (1994), What the Bible Really Says About
Homosexuality. San Francisco, CA: Alamo Press.
(45) Gomes, P. J. (1996). The Good Book: Reading the Bible with Mind
and Heart. New York: Avon.
(46) Carrol, W. (1997), On being gay and an American Baptist minister.
The InSpiriter, Spring, pp. 6-7,11.
Appendix 1
APA Position Statement on Psychiatric Treatment and Sexual Orientation
December 11, 1998
The Board of Trustees of the American Psychiatric Association removed
homosexuality from the DSM in 1973 after reviewing the evidence that it
was not a mental disorder. In 1987, ego-dystonic homosexuality was not
included in the DSM-III-R after a similar review.
The American Psychiatric Association does not currently have a formal
position statement on treatments that attempt to change a persons
sexual orientation, also known as reparative or conversion therapy.
There is an APA 1997 Fact Sheet on Homosexual and Bisexual Issues which
states that there is no published scientific evidence supporting the
efficacy of reparative therapy as a treatment to change
ones sexual orientation.
The potential risks of reparative therapy are great, including
depression, anxiety and self-destructive behavior, since therapist
alignment with societal prejudices against homosexuality may reinforce
self-hatred already experienced by the patient. Many patients who have
undergone reparative therapy relate that they were inaccurately told
that homosexuals are lonely, unhappy individuals who never achieve
acceptance or satisfaction. The possibility that the person might
achieve happiness and satisfying interpersonal relationships as a gay
man or lesbian is not presented, nor are alternative approaches to
dealing the effects of societal stigmatization discussed. The APA
recognizes that in the course of ongoing psychiatric treatment there
may be appropriate clinical indications for attempting to change sexual
behaviors.
Several major professional organizations including the American
Psychological Association, the National Association of Social Workers
and the American Academy of Pediatrics have all made statements against
reparative therapy because of concerns for the harm caused to patients.
The American Psychiatric Association has already taken clear stands
against discrimination, prejudice and unethical treatment on a variety
of issues including discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation.
Therefore, the American Psychiatric Association opposes any psychiatric
treatment, such as reparative or conversion therapy which is based upon
the assumption that homosexuality per se is a mental disorder or based
upon the a priori assumption that the patient should change his/her
sexual homosexual orientation.
--
Rictor Norton
mailto:norton@rictor.freeserve.co.uk
http://www.infopt.demon.co.uk/rcnorton.htm
___________________________________________________________________Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2000 18:18:00 +0100 (BST)
From: M Houlbrook <mhoulb@essex.ac.uk>
Subject: Introduction
I've been on the list for over a year and - although I've sent a couple of
postings - never got round to introducing myself.
I'm a doctoral research student at the University of Essex - in the
process of writing up. My thesis is an ethnography of the queer subculture
in London between 1918 and 1957. In particular I focus upon the regulation
and constitution of male social networks and the ways in which a range of
competing identities were structured around these spatial conflicts. I've
given a number of conference papers in this area and have a couple of
publications forthcoming: 'The Private World of Public Urinals: London
1918-57', London Journal 25 (1) June 2000 and 'For Whose Convenience? Gay
Guides, Cognitive Maps and the Construction of Queer London 1917-1967' in
S Gunn and B Morris, Boundaries, Identities and Urban Space 1700-2000
(Ashgate 2001 forthcoming).
Matt Houlbrook
University of Essex
___________________________________________________________________From: "Alejandro Levis" <ancient-andean@almapintada.com>
Subject: Re: Introduction - Ethnohistory of children's sexuality
Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2000 14:26:39 -0400
Hello all,
I'm about half way through my thesis at Antioch University in the USA. It is
entitled, "Playing in the garden of good and evil: An ethnohistory of
children's sexuality". Bolivia is my home. I suppose the topic began with
wondering why there are so many child rapes/abductions/murders in America. I
wondered how pre-western contact tribal cultures understood age grades,
maturity, and children's natural sexuality and if repression of their
sexuality might be implicated in the etiology of sexual violence towards
children.
And so, following Malinowski, Ford &Beach, Verrier Elwin and many others I
have been digging through old anthropological and travel literature looking
for clues. How did rape free cultures understand children's sexuality? I
have a website devoted to the topic at http://www.almapintada.com . There
you will find articles of the Bontoc Igorot, the Hill Maria, Amazonian
tribes, the Nuba, the Masai, the Irish, the Marquesan Islanders, a few
touches of Victorians, child marriage in India, child prostitution in
Victorian Singapore and so on. I usually post a new article about 3-4 times
a month as my thesis advances. Also lots of old photographs which I have
compressed down as much as possible but do take a few seconds to load, in
the next day or so I should have five pages of photos of Amazonian girls and
their cultural surroundings from Whiffen's 1915 expedition east of Iquitos,
Peru. The site has recently been declared as "Recommended" and "Top" on some
of the smaller search engines under Society/Sexuality.
Needless to say, anyone giving a neutral account of children's sexuality in
the present American milieau is heavily attacked. The debate often involves
urban legend, folk beliefs and pseudo-science. I am not pedophile or a child
molester but have certainly been accused of it since I began this topic. The
last listserve I joined got so bad with flames (from NGO chiefs and feminist
academics) that it had to be closed after I questioned the hysteria around
child pornography as a billion-dollar industry deserving hundreds of
millions of dollars of spending and draconian police state measures as
"solutions". I have solid research showing that it is barely a problem and
rather a thousends of year old phenomena.
So hopefully since this is a listserve for academics who are interested in
the History of Sexuality and can include ethnohistory of children's
sexuality as a topic for academic discussion.
M. Lewis
Antioch University
___________________________________________________________________
From: "Lesley Hall" <lesleyah@primex.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Public Urinals
Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2000 20:32:18 +0100
I've
>given a number of conference papers in this area and have a couple of
>publications forthcoming: 'The Private World of Public Urinals: London
>1918-57', London Journal 25 (1) June 2000
Dear Matt
Thanks for this intro. I'm fascinated to see your research topic as only
today I was asked by someone who is editing a memoir whether I knew of any
sources for pictures of public urinals during the period you mention! Have
you come across any visual material of this nature (or, indeed, has anyone
else on the list)?
Lesley
Lesley Hall
lesleyah@primex.co.uk
website http://homepages.primex.co.uk/~lesleyah
___________________________________________________________________Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2000 20:54:04 +0100
From: Ianthe <ianthe@duende.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Public Urinals
>
In message <011201bf9da3$78ff71a0$d82f70c3@oemcomputer>, Lesley Hall
<lesleyah@primex.co.uk> writes
>Dear Matt
>Thanks for this intro. I'm fascinated to see your research topic as only
>today I was asked by someone who is editing a memoir whether I knew of any
>sources for pictures of public urinals during the period you mention! Have
>you come across any visual material of this nature (or, indeed, has anyone
>else on the list)?
The UK's Square Peg magazine had some pictures from a late 80s/early
90s gallery installation which recreated such. I guess if you got
the name of the artist and then asked around the London art world
someone might come up with a catalogue or some images from the
exhibition. Also Gilbert and George may well have done some art on
the subject.
--
Ianthe Duende
___________________________________________________________________
Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2000 15:43:27 -0500
From: "M.E. Buszek" <buszekme@chickmail.com>
Subject: Brooklyn Baths
Greetings, all!
I am writing with a question about gay bath houses in the 20th century. I am currently researching a painting by Paul Cadmus (-Coney Island-, 1934) for the Los Angeles County Museum of Art. Since Cadmus was well known for including both overt and covert "clues" in his early paintings about homosexuality in the public sphere, I am trying to be as thorough as possible in interpreting much of the painting's symbolism for such messages.
In -Coney Island-, Cadmus goes to great lengths to include in the composition a sign in the far
distance for the "Washington Baths" off the Coney Island boardwalk. Does anyone on the list
have any idea if Brooklyn, specifically Coney Island, was known for any gay--or simply
all-male--bath houses pre-WWII, and if so whether the Washington Baths were among them?
Many thanks,
Maria-Elena Buszek
___________________________________________________________________
Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2000 13:56:26 -0700
From: Eric Grace <ericgrace@home.com>
Subject: Re: Brooklyn Baths
There is a ref. to Washington Baths and to Coney Island bathhouses and
cruising in: Gay New York by George Chauncey (BasicBooks, 1994)
Eric Grace
___________________________________________________________________
From: "Alejandro Levis" <ancient-andean@almapintada.com>
Subject: Re: Introduction - Ethnohistory of children's sexuality
Date: Mon, 3 Apr 2000 23:51:17 -0400
----- Original Message -----
From: "Alejandro Levis" <ancient-andean@almapintada.com>
To: "Histsex:For historians of sexuality" <histsex@listbot.com>
Sent: Monday, April 03, 2000 10:06 PM
Subject: Re: Introduction - Ethnohistory of children's sexuality
>> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Hera Cook" <hera.cook@history.usyd.edu.au>
> To: "Histsex:For historians of sexuality" <histsex@listbot.com>
> Sent: Monday, April 03, 2000 8:07 PM
> Subject: Re: Introduction - Ethnohistory of children's sexuality
>> > Could you please justify your implicit claim that any or some of these
are
> rape
> > free cultures?
>> Sanday (1981) using the Standard Cross Cultural Survey (Murdock&White,
1969)
> studied 186 societies, 102 of which had information concerning the
incidence
> of rape. She categorized 49 societies of the 102 as, "Aggression against
> women in form of rape or raiding for wives is ABSENT" and 53 societies as
> "Raiding for wives and/or rape is PRESENT (Sanday pp. 256).
>> Suggs (1966 pp. 63) reports one incidence of gang rape in the Marquesas
> Islands, asociated with the Missionary School. This particular case,
beyond
> be exceedingly rare, was initiated by female peers. Elwin (1947) who spent
> twenty years with the Hill tribes of Central India, documented 2 cases of
> gang rape in the Muria group which took place as a form of punishment by
the
> communal peer group for the victim having broken sexual taboos . Beyond
> those two cases in 20 years, the society appears to be rape free.
>> One would think women who haven't heard of societies where rape is
> exceedingly rare or nearly absent, would be overjoyed to hear the news.
> Unfortunately this comment is most often greeted with disbelief and even
> derision. Why do Americans need to believe men in all cultures are
rapists?
>> Citations
>> Sanday, Peggy Reeves. 1981. Female power and male Dominance: On the
origins
> of sexual inequality. Cambridge: Cambridge University Press.
>> Suggs, Robert C. 1966. Marquesan sexual behavior: An anthropological study
> of Polynesian practises. New York: Harcourt, Brace & World.
>> Elwin, Verrier. 1947. The Muria and their ghotul.Oford: Oxford University
> Press.
>> Note: I have written Dr. Sanday asking her for a list of these cultures.
>> > > I questioned the hysteria around
> > > child pornography as a billion-dollar industry deserving hundreds of
> > > millions of dollars of spending and draconian police state measures as
> > > "solutions". I have solid research showing that it is barely a problem
> and
> > > rather a thousends of year old phenomena.
> >> > The inadequacy of the current societal response to child sexuality
cannot
> be
> > addressed by denying that many individuals have been deeply damaged by
> adults who
> > took advantage of their power to sexually or otherwise abuse them.
>> Who is denying it? Not I! Certainly no one that I know! I might ask where
> does children's power in western society come into the equation? My guess
is
> that they have been DEFINED as having none, just as women were DEFINED as
> having none.
>> >Acknowledging the reality of the 'problem' - abused
> > individuals' experience and their pain - is more likely to enable
society
> to
> > move away from a purely repressive response to children's sexuality than
> your
> > attempt to deny it exists.
>> Again, who is denying it? What I stated was that child pornography is a
very
> small problem. The research is not published but 1) Definition of child
> pornography used in the study was the FBI, federal law standard, and
> prepubertal children age; 2) nudity (naturist, Sally Mann etc.) per se was
> not counted; 3) There is not now, nor has their ever been a billion
dollar
> child porn industry (The Australian commission found the same). What there
> WAS was a couple of small publishers in the 70's and early 80's who
> published about 200 issues of such magazines as "Lollitots" and "Lolita
> Love". Pictures were reused between issues so that appox 5000 pictures
were
> published in this era, of these the majority were more along the lines of
> nudity. After illegalization (1984) whatever was being done with child
porn
> went underground until the advent of usenet. On Usenet child porn and
> erotica pictures are traded freely between a few score collectors. Post
> 1980 appox 3500 hard core child pornography images (many are video
captures
> from single videos) divided up into just over a hundred series have been
> circulated through usenet and www. That is approximately 5 victims per
year.
> Before you deny the truth of these figures I expect you to do some real
> first hand research because what most people cite (Rim Report etc.) is
pure
> bologni.
>> In 1999, 5 new sets appeared, two of which were very horrifying in a way
> that previous sets were not, in that they depicted drugged kids being
raped,
> something that rarely appeared previously. This year a number of new sets
> of images (about ten) have appeared that were highly visible in the South
> American press. Girls' mothers in Paraguay hired out their mostly native
> daughters to pose naked near some streams and waterfalls. None of these
> pictures showed exposed genitals. Subsequently the pictures were posted on
> the internet and everyone from Interpol to the Paraguayan Secret Police
got
> into the act. The papers republished the pictures with big black boxes
over
> faces, chests and hips. What is interesting is that not to long ago these
> same tribes' thought wearing clothing was obscene.
>> I don't deny the problem exists, and I do suggest that we should arrest
and
> lock these child rapers up forever. I also suggest that the focus on child
> porn is misguided and the focus should be where the problem really is: in
> the bosom of the western family and western socio-economics.
>> One would think that people would be joyous to hear that there are very
few
> children victimized by child pornographers. I know it was a great relief
to
> me. Once again, the research is greeted with denial, derision and
downright
> anger. Why do westerners NEED to believe in the billion dollar kiddy porn
> racket?
>> >I also do not believe that adult/child sexual contact
> > is acceptable in our society in any event.
>> I am agreeing with this statement and I think we can pass it by without
any
> discussion except to ask what you define as a "child" and is this
defintion
> valid cross-culturally?
>> Levis
>
___________________________________________________________________
Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2000 15:36:44 -0700
Subject: Re: Brooklyn Baths
From: "David Robinson" <dmrobins@U.Arizona.EDU>
Unfortunately, I don't have any information to provide in response to this
query.
But I just wanted to express my admiration and gratitude to Maria-Elena
Buszek. It's such a delight, and such a change, to see someone doing this
kind of work for a museum.
I went to see the huge John Singer Sargent exhibit when it was in
Washington, D.C., and noticed the conspicuous absence of any reference to
Singer's probable homosexuality, let alone to its relation to his art as a
whole or to particular paintings.
David Robinson
___________________________________________________________________ Date: Mon, 03 Apr 2000 18:29:56 -0500
From: "M.E. Buszek" <buszekme@chickmail.com>
Subject: Re: Brooklyn Baths
--
On Mon, 03 Apr 2000 15:36:44 David Robinson wrote:
>Unfortunately, I don't have any information to provide in response to this
>query.
>>But I just wanted to express my admiration and gratitude to Maria-Elena
>Buszek. It's such a delight, and such a change, to see someone doing this
>kind of work for a museum.
Many thanks...but the praise really isn't earned on my part! Although Cadmus was rather secretive about his personal life, he *was* openly gay *and* painted the public presence of the gay community decades before Stonewall...I just think it's a museum's RESPONSIBILITY to bring up such things, compulsory heterosexuality be damned!
(Although, one can usually only go *so far* in an institutional setting...after having sent my
original draft of the essay to the head curator, her response was more or less: "Dear Lord, you use
a variation on the word "homosexual" five times...The trustees *heads* will explode and we will
be run out of town if we don't tone this down." So...I guess you can say some of us are
approaching that responsibility with baby steps, realizing we have a long way to go...)
Waiting for arteries to burst at the words "gay bathhouse" in the next newsletter...(haha)
Maria-Elena Buszek
___________________________________________________________________Date: Tue, 04 Apr 2000 10:07:48 +1000
From: Hera Cook <hera.cook@history.usyd.edu.au>
Subject: Re: Introduction - Ethnohistory of children's sexuality
Hello,
I also believe that children's sexuality as presented by early ethnographers is a
valid topic for academic discussion.
You write -
> How did rape free cultures understand children's sexuality?
> I have a website devoted to the topic at http://www.almapintada.com . There
> you will find articles of the Bontoc Igorot, the Hill Maria, Amazonian
> tribes, the Nuba, the Masai, the Irish, the Marquesan Islanders, a few
> touches of Victorians, child marriage in India, child prostitution in
> Victorian Singapore and so on.
Could you please justify your implicit claim that any or some of these are rape
free cultures?
> I questioned the hysteria around
> child pornography as a billion-dollar industry deserving hundreds of
> millions of dollars of spending and draconian police state measures as
> "solutions". I have solid research showing that it is barely a problem and
> rather a thousends of year old phenomena.
The inadequacy of the current societal response to child sexuality cannot be
addressed by denying that many individuals have been deeply damaged by adults who
took advantage of their power to sexually or otherwise abuse them. However such
abuse is defined there is more than sufficient evidence to support the need to
take action to prevent it. Acknowledging the reality of the 'problem' - abused
individuals' experience and their pain - is more likely to enable society to
move away from a purely repressive response to children's sexuality than your
attempt to deny it exists. I also do not believe that adult/child sexual contact
is acceptable in our society in any event.
Hera
--
Hera Cook
History Department
MacCallum Building A17
University of Sydney
NSW 2006
Australia
Phone 61 2 9351 2862, Fax 61 2 9351 3918
___________________________________________________________________
Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2000 17:06:14 -0700 (PDT)
From: =?iso-8859-1?q?daniel=20marshall?= <teague76@yahoo.com>
Hello,
My name is Daniel Marshall and i have just started my
PhD in English with Cultural Studies at the University
of Melbourne. generally speaking, i am interested in
researching paedophilia and would be interested to
hear from anyone who has done any work on this.
currently i am working on a paper about gay male
internet porn and am keen to find more resources.
Daniel.
___________________________________________________________________From: "Alejandro Levis" <ancient-andean@almapintada.com>
Subject: Hera: Sanday's online article mentioning rape free societies
Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2000 23:12:07 -0400
Hera:
http://www.sas.upenn.edu/~psanday/rapea.html
About half way down is a note on a modern rape-free society she studied in
Indonesia. Sanday has identified a number of these from early ethnographies.
My own concept, independently arrived at, is that there were societies and
cultures in which children/youth were not sexually victimized. My question
is: What were the characteristics of these cultures? Since rape and sexual
victimization of the young has long been ingrained in western societies, I
believe it is necessary to look at historical tribal cultures to reach an
understanding.
Levis
___________________________________________________________________From: "Alejandro Levis" <ancient-andean@almapintada.com>
Subject: Re: Introduction - Ethnohistory of children's sexuality
Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 01:25:17 -0400
Hera:
http://www.sas.upenn.edu/~psanday/rapea.html
About half way down is a note on a modern rape-free society she studied in
Indonesia. Sanday has identified a number of these from early ethnographies.
My own concept, independently arrived at, is that there were societies and
cultures in which children/youth were not sexually victimized. My question
is: What were the characteristics of these cultures? Since rape and sexual
victimization of the young has long been ingrained in western societies, I
believe it is necessary to look at historical tribal cultures to reach an
understanding.
See:
Sanday, P.R. (l981). The socio-cultural context of rape:a cross-cultural
study. Journal of Social Issues, 37, 5-27.
Levis
PS I am having a hard time posting...... so if this duplicates please excuse
me for the spam.
___________________________________________________________________
Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2000 11:24:17 +0200
From: Gert Hekma <hekma@pscw.uva.nl>
Subject: Re: History of children's sexuality
Welcome mr Lewis
In my perspective, the theme of children's sexuality is an essential topic
for social and historical sciences, so the idea that it could not be
researched in other terms than sexual abuse (the US-congress had a
resolution to that effect) is utterly unscholarly. In my field of queer
studies, the work of Gilbert Herdt and others on male initiation among the
Melanesians has been important. Two weeks ago, the dissertation on ancient
greek "Eros dikaios" (title of the book) by Charles Hupperts was discussed
at my university (of Amsterdam). He concluded from poetry, vase paintings
and other sources that ideas on Greek pederasty were often wrong because,
according to him, not only men enjoyed pleasure with boys intercrurally,
but also men with men and boys with boys, and not only between the tighs.
The idea that Greek eros should have an educational function, stems from
Plato's Symposion, and seems to be more of a myth produced for the occasion
than social reality. Hupperts works at an English translation of his book.
Wish you success with your research!
Gert Hekma
___________________________________________________________________From: "Margaretta Jolly" <jolly@moa.u-net.com>
Subject: Queering Development
Date: Wed, 5 Apr 2000 12:22:59 +0100
I thought list members might be interested in this:
Margaretta
Queering Development, Challenging Dominant Models of Sexuality in
> Development
> Seminar Series, Institute of Development Studies, University of Sussex
>> Call for speakers
>> Last term the Institute of Development Studies in Sussex organised a
> seminar
> series on 'Queering Development - challenging dominant models of sexuality
> in development.' Papers ranged from situating current queer politics in
> developing countries to exploring the broader implications of queer theory
> for development thinking. This is new terrain in the development field,
> and
> the seminars have been very stimulating and productive. (If you want to
> check out the seminar titles of last term, and some papers presented, and
> summaries of discussions, they can be found at
> http://www.ids.ac.uk/ids/socpol/qd.html - this will be up by the end of
> today, but is not actually there at this moment. I also include a list of
> seminars given below.)
>> We are going to hold another such seminar series this term, and we are
> looking for speakers on related areas to present papers/give informal
> presentations. The series runs on a Friday lunchtime at 1pm, and the dates
> we have scheduled are May 19th, 26th, and June 2nd, 9th, 16th, and 23rd.
> Phil Gatter from South Bank University will be speaking on 'Global
> theories
> and sexualities' on May 19th, but other dates are still not fixed.
>> I would be very grateful for any offers of speakers, or suggestions of
> people working on related areas in the UK.
> Susie Jolly, IDS, idpn8@ids.ac.uk
> Last term's seminars:
> Constituting the Global Gay: Law, Subjectivity, and Sexuality in Southern
> Africa
> Oliver Phillipps, University of Keele
> Week 2: Thursday 20th January 5.00pm, IDS, Room 109
>> Why is development work so straight?
> Gilles Kleitz, IDS
> Week 3: Thursday 27th January 5.00pm, IDS, Room 109
>> What use is Queer theory to Gender and Development?
> Susie Jolly, IDS
> Week 4: Thursday 3rd February 5.00pm, IDS, Room 109
>> Ouch! Feminists 'wounded attachment' to the Third World sex worker
> Jo Doezema, IDS
> Week 5: Thursday 10th February 5.00pm, IDS, room 120
>> On the National Question:
> Imagined Masculinities, Enforced Sexualities and the African Renaissance
> Marc Mathuray, Hums, Univ. of Sussex
> Week 6: Thursday 17th February 5.00pm, IDS, room 120
>> Post-modernity, post-development and the appeal of the Queer:
> A Cuban case study
> David Forrest, CDE, Sussex
> Week 7: Thursday 24th February 5.00pm, IDS, room 120
>> Sexual Orientation Discrimination in the UK Labour Market
> Michele Calandrino, IDS
> Week 8: Thursday 2nd March 5.00pm, IDS, room 120
>
___________________________________________________________________Date: Wed, 05 Apr 2000 11:01:15 -0500
From: Frances Brenstein <fbernste@drew.edu>
Subject: History of sexuality syllabi
Colleagues,
I will be teaching a seminar on the history of sexuality in the fall and
would find it useful to take a look at other syllabi as I plan my own.
If anyone would be willing to post his/her own syllabi, or direct me
towards other websites that have relevant syllabi, I'd be grateful.
Sincerely yours,
Fran Bernstein
Dept. of History
Drew University
Madison, NJ 07940
___________________________________________________________________Subject: Re: Brooklyn Baths
Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2000 17:37:44 -0500
From: "Michael J. Murphy" <mjmurphy@artsci.wustl.edu>
Maria-Elena,
Last ear I wrote a paper on gay bathhouses in America in the early
twentieth century. Here is my bibliography; all sources have some mention
to gay baths. Hope you find it useful. If others have references to this
subject, I'd appreciate a heads up...so to speak.
Best,
Mike Murphy
Washington University, St. Louis
Bérubé, Allan. ³The History of Gay Bathhouses,² in Dangerous
Bedfellows, eds., Policing Public Sex, 187-220. Boston: South End, 1996.
Chauncey, George. Gay New York: Gender, Urban Culture, and the Making
of the Gay Male World, 1890-1940. New York: Basic, 1994.
Doezema, Marianne. George Bellows and Urban America. New Haven: Yale,
1992.
Fairbrother, Trevor. ³Sargent¹s Genre Paintings and the Issues of
Suppression and Privacy.² Studies in the History of Art 37 (1990),
28-49.
Harris, Craig G. ³Coming Together in the Baths,² in Franklin Abbott,
ed., Men and Intimacy, 173-76. Freedom, CA: Crossing Press, 1990.
Higgs, David, ed. Queer Sites: Gay Urban Histories Since 1600. London:
Routledge, 1999.
Katz, Jonathan Ned. Gay/Lesbian Almanac: A New Documentary. New York:
Harper, 1983.
________. Gay American History: Lesbians and Gay Men in the USA.
Revised edition. New York: Meridian, 1992.
Knopp, Lawrence. ³Sexuality and Urban Space,² in David Bell and Gill
Valentine, Mapping Desire: Geographies of Sexuality, 149-61. London:
Routledge, 1995.
Loughery, John. The Other Side of Silence: Men¹s Lives and Gay
Identities: A Twentieth Century History. New York: Norton, 1998.
Tattelman, Ira. ³Speaking to the Gay Bathhouse: Communicating in
Sexually Charged Spaces,² in William Leap, ed., Public Sex/ Gay Space,
71-94. New York: Columbia, 1999.
Weinberg, Martin S. and Colin J. Williams. ³Gay Baths and the Social
Organization of Impersonal Sex,² in Martin P. Levine, ed., Gay Men: The
Sociology of Male Homosexuality, 164-81. New York: Harper, 1979.
Weiss, Philip. ³Postcard New York: Inside a Gay Bathhouse.² The New
Republic 193 (2 December 1985): 12-13.
Williams, Emlyn. Emlyn: An Early Autobiography, 1927-1935. London:
Bodley Head, 1973.
Williams, Marilyn Thornton. ³New York City¹s Public Baths: A Case Study
in Progressive Reform.² Journal of Social History 7/1 (November 1980):
49-81.
Young, Perry Dean. ³So You¹re Planning to Spend a Night at the Tubs?²
Rolling Stone 128 (15 February 1973): 48-50.
Michael J. Murphy, M.A.
Graduate Student, Dept. of Art History and Archaeology
Washington University, St. Louis
mjmurphy@artsci.wustl.edu
"I've always depended on the kindness of strangers." -Blanche Dubois
___________________________________________________________________From: Kazetnik@aol.com
Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2000 11:13:46 EDT
Subject: Re: "rape free" cultures
Hi all
On the subject of definitions of rape: in the UK unless the act consists of
penile penetration of the vagina (without consent), then it counts as the
lesser offence of sexual assault or gross indecency. So forcible buggery,
penetration with any other object or any other form of sexual violence are
not, for Brits, rape at all. Thus, men cannot, by definition, be raped,
except in colloquial discourse. (A nonsense of course.) I'm not sure if what
they used to charmingly call 'emission' is of relevance any more. It
certainly was a matter of debate around definitions of rape in 19th Century
England and Wales.
Chris
___________________________________________________________________
From: "Lesley Hall"<lesleyah@primex.co.uk>
Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2000 15:46:14 gmt
Subject: Re: "rape free" cultures
>not, for Brits, rape at all. Thus, men cannot, by definition, be raped,
>except in colloquial discourse. (A nonsense of course.)
This has now changed - don't have the exact date and act to hand but males can
now, legally, be raped in the UK (?England and Wales - suspect Scottish law
remains different) as of the 1990s. I think this may have come into law round
about the time it was finally, after over 100 years of campaigning, determined
that rape within marriage did constitute an offence (rather than assertion of
conjugal rights).
Lesley Hall
lesleyah@primex.co.uk
homepage: http://homepages.primex.co.uk/~lesleyah
___________________________________________________________________Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2000 12:13:58 -0500
To: "Histsex:For historians of sexuality" <histsex@listbot.com>
From: Bob <suannschafer@earthlink.net>
Michael, thanks for some hard facts ... I'm wondering if you have
comparable statistics for women who were victims of sex crimes in
1996. And the source of the statistics?
With thanks, B
>Histsex:For historians of sexuality - http://homepages.primex.co.uk/~lesleyah
>>Until the 1990s, in English law the term "rape" was restricted to forced
>penile penetration of the vagina and thus could not apply to sexual assaults
>against men. The offence of rape was extended in England and Wales, in the
>enactment of the Public Order and Criminal Justice Act in 1994, to include
>anal or vaginal penetration by a penis. This change in the law arose because
>of increasing recognition that sexual attacks on men were more common than
>previously believed. Statistics collected by the police since then are
>revealing. Official figures show that large numbers of men are victims of
>sexual crime. In 1996 there were 3142 indecent assaults and 227 rapes of
>men. The figure for rape represents an increase of 51% from 1995.
>>Michael King
>>Professor Michael King
>Department of Psychiatry and Behavioural Sciences
>Royal Free and University College Medical School
>Royal Free Campus
>Rowland Hill Street
>LONDON NW3 2PF
>>Tele +44 (0)207 830 2397
>Fax +44 (0)207 830 2808
>email m.king@rfc.ucl.ac.uk
>
___________________________________________________________________Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2000 11:05:03 -0400
From: Sheila McManus <smcmanus@yorku.ca>
Subject: Re: "rape free" cultures
Levis wrote:
>Sanday (1981) using the Standard Cross Cultural Survey (Murdock&White, 1969)
>studied 186 societies, 102 of which had information concerning the incidence
>of rape. She categorized 49 societies of the 102 as, "Aggression against
>women in form of rape or raiding for wives is ABSENT" and 53 societies as
>"Raiding for wives and/or rape is PRESENT (Sanday pp. 256).
>Suggs (1966 pp. 63) reports one incidence of gang rape in the Marquesas
>Islands, asociated with the Missionary School. This particular case, beyond
>be exceedingly rare, was initiated by female peers. Elwin (1947) who spent
>twenty years with the Hill tribes of Central India, documented 2 cases of
>gang rape in the Muria group which took place as a form of punishment by the
>communal peer group for the victim having broken sexual taboos . Beyond
>those two cases in 20 years, the society appears to be rape free.
>One would think women who haven't heard of societies where rape is
>exceedingly rare or nearly absent, would be overjoyed to hear the news.
>Unfortunately this comment is most often greeted with disbelief and even
>derision. Why do Americans need to believe men in all cultures are rapists?
I don't think "Americans" or "westerners" "need" to believe that men in
all cultures are rapists, but feminists around the world know that "rape"
tends to be very narrowly defined in most people's minds and even more
rarely reported, and these definitions and reports in no way reflect the
actual frequency of sexual assaults against women and children. "Rape" is
not just a male stranger or strangers attacking a woman in public and
dragging her into the bushes, and such instances reflect a tiny proportion
of assaults against women. The vast majority of sexual assaults (that is,
any unwanted sexual contact) take place behind closed doors and are
generally perpetrated by someone known to the victim. In North America,
marital rape was not even considered a crime until the 1980s and in many
countries it still isn't. The examples given above prove my point - only
sexual assaults which took place 'in public' and were reported count as
'rape' to these researchers. So while I am perfectly willing to believe
that there are some cultures where reported public sexual assaults are
rare, I am unwilling to believe that women in those cultures are therefore
unlikely to be forced to have sex with their husbands or fathers or uncles
or boyfriends. There is simply no logical connection between those two
assumptions.
Sheila McManus
* * * * * * * * * *
Sheila McManus
Ph.D. Candidate, Department of History, York University
smcmanus@yorku.ca
___________________________________________________________________From: "King, Michael" <m.king@rfc.ucl.ac.uk>
To: "'Histsex:For historians of sexuality'" <histsex@listbot.com>
Subject: RE: "rape free" cultures
Source of stats: HMSO Criminal Statistics (England and Wales) 1996. HMSO:
London
Not sure of figures for women but they may well be in there. You could ask
Gillian Mezey a colleague of mine at St George's Hospital Med School, email:
gmezey@sghms.ac.uk
Regards
Michael
___________________________________________________________________Date: Thu, 06 Apr 2000 16:50:57 +0100
From: cristina santos <cristina@sonata.fe.uc.pt>
Subject: Re: "rape free" cultures
In the Portuguese Penal Code of 1982, women were considered as the only
possible victims of rape. Moreover, involuntary anal or oral sex were not
considered as rape (points 201 and 202). There were obvious dissatisfaction
with the fact that rape wasn't simply defined as sexual penetration through
violence or , as it was the case with the Frensh law, at the time (point
222.23 of Frensh Civil Code. In 1995, the point 164 of the Portuguese Penal
Code extended the sentence due to rape to a minimum of 3 to 10 years,
including also anal intercourse as rape action. estendendo a punição ao
coito anal. Finally, two years ago, in the law 65/98, 2nd September, oral
sex was also considered and any reference that made the woman the only
possible victim was eliminated. So, Portuguese law now consideres rape
victims any person obliged to have vaginal, anal or oral sex without
his/her consent.
This leads me to believe that maybe there's an emancipatory light shining
outhere, at least in the legal field... Of course laws don't imply its
pratical usefulness.
By the way, I totally agree with Sheila McManus when she says:
So while I am perfectly willing to believe
>that there are some cultures where reported public sexual assaults are
>rare, I am unwilling to believe that women in those cultures are therefore
>unlikely to be forced to have sex with their husbands or fathers or uncles
>or boyfriends.
Greetings to all,
Cris
Ana Cristina Santos
Centre for Social Studies
Apartado 3087
3001-401 Coimbra - Portugal
Phone 00 351 239855583
___________________________________________________________________From: "King, Michael" <m.king@rfc.ucl.ac.uk>
Subject: RE: "rape free" cultures
Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2000 18:10:07 +0100
Until the 1990s, in English law the term "rape" was restricted to forced
penile penetration of the vagina and thus could not apply to sexual assaults
against men. The offence of rape was extended in England and Wales, in the
enactment of the Public Order and Criminal Justice Act in 1994, to include
anal or vaginal penetration by a penis. This change in the law arose because
of increasing recognition that sexual attacks on men were more common than
previously believed. Statistics collected by the police since then are
revealing. Official figures show that large numbers of men are victims of
sexual crime. In 1996 there were 3142 indecent assaults and 227 rapes of
men. The figure for rape represents an increase of 51% from 1995.
Michael King
Professor Michael King
Department of Psychiatry and Behavioural Sciences
Royal Free and University College Medical School
Royal Free Campus
Rowland Hill Street
LONDON NW3 2PF
Tele +44 (0)207 830 2397
Fax +44 (0)207 830 2808
email m.king@rfc.ucl.ac.uk
-----Original Message-----
From: Kazetnik@aol.com [mailto:Kazetnik@aol.com]
Sent: 06 April 2000 16:14
To: histsex@listbot.com
Subject: Re: "rape free" cultures
Histsex:For historians of sexuality -
http://homepages.primex.co.uk/~lesleyah
___________________________________________________________________
From: "Zoetanya Sujon" <zsujon@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: gay men lesbians and psychology/psychiatry
Date: Fri, 07 Apr 2000 02:23:20 GMT
Hi,
Its been a very long time since I last contributed to this list, and I have
a long overdue thank-you to both Tim Hogdon and Ivan Raykoff for your
suggestions and comments about conducting research into the sex industry.
Many thanks to both of you for your help.
And Rikki, I have a suggestion for your query about psychiatry and gay men
and women. It is not *purely* academic or from a cultural studies
perspective. Sheila Gilhooly and Persimmon Blackbridge collaborated on a
fantastic and very moving book called 'Still Sane'. I highly recommend it
to anyone, especially those who have an interest in the forced psychiatric
treatments of gay people up til the 1970's. This book juxtaposes Sheila
Gilhooly's powerful personal experiences of forced institutionalization in
the early 1970's for being a lesbin, with some facts and figures about
psychiatric treatments, institutions and practices. I don't have the year
it was published, but it was put out by 'Press Gang' Publishers in
Vancouver, Canada. I suspect this is a difficult book to track down - but
it is well worth it.
I hope this is of some help.
Cheers,
Zoe
------------------------------------------------------------
Zoetanya Sujon - Editorial Manager
Space and Culture - the journal
Box 797, Station B, Ottawa K1P 5P8 Canada
Tel. (613) 520 - 2600 ext. 2602
Fax. (613) 520 - 4062
URL: http://www.carleton.ca/~rshields/space
------------------------------------------------------------
___________________________________________________________________Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2000 14:49:11 +1000
From: Ivan Crozier <i.crozier@scifac.usyd.edu.au>
Subject: Help with author identifictation.
Dear All,
Below is a letter which I submitted to the list in its very early days
in the hope of correctly identifying its author. I still have no idea
as to who wrote it, and am hoping it might ring a few expert bells out
there (now that many more members have joined). It is cited as being
from Horatio Brown in the Bristol Uni archives, but internal evidence
suggests this is incorrect (you don't generally send regards to people
whose literary estates you manage after their deaths). I am trying to
find the reference for a monograph I am writing on Havelock Ellis and
the medicalisation of homosexuality in England, 1850-1900 (focussing on
Ellis and Symonds' "Sexual Inversion" in a large part). All help will
be recognised in the text.
The letter:
Bristol Univeristy Library, JAS papers,
Dear Mr.
Ellis, Thankyou for your
letting me read the conclusion which I send back today registered. I
think that it is admirable in its calmness, its judicial unbiased tone.
And if anything can pursuade people to look the question in the face
this should
I am especially at one
with you when you suggest that from an ethical point of view the
heterosexual and the unisexual are parallel, each being capable of
exaltation and of degradation, each admitting all the variation from a
noble affection to the most trivial prostitution. And again when you
warn those who have to
deal witht he subject from an =E6sthetic bias to warp their
judgement.
And again when you
indicate the possibility that nature--in the cases of inverts--is
deliberately sterilising.
I am much interested
in your suggestion of co-education, new to me. At first I said at once
"oh! no this would make no difference" but I don't feel so sure now as
I have become accustomed to the
idea.
I am struck by the
large amount of recent literature (1893.94.95.) which is appearing on
the subject. That is a most helpful sign. At the same time it is a
disgrace to England--where inversion is so wide spread--that she should
be so unrepresented. The schrenck-Notzing cure--the shrink at nothing
cure one might call it--is appalling and I think you destroy its theory
when you demonstrate that it merely ends in making a double-barrelled
sinner.
I should like to omit
the passage from Symonds' "A few laws of Moses--social abomination."=20
You yourself feel the need of making the statement, and it seems to me
to be inspired by te pugnacious spirit which I should like to see
excluded from the controversy for the present. "A few laws"--"the
legend"--"have sufficed totransform"--these are all phrases with an
aroma of contempt for current opinion, and are more calculated, inmy
view, to rouse retaliatory animosity. Besides they break the cool,
judicial unbiased temoer of the whole
Chapter.
Quite true what you
said about "gross indecency." The act which brought me into the world
be certainly "grossly indecent" is [<italic>sic</italic>] detailed in a
court of law.
And finally I like the
quietness and sanity of the statement as to what you would like to see
done in this difficult
matter.
Best regards to
Symonds. I will write soon to
him.
Yours, [Horatio Brown]
I hope you can help, or put me in contact with some useful leads.
Cheerio, Ivan=20
Ivan Crozier,
Unit for the History and Philosophy of Science
Carslaw Bldg (F07)
University of Sydney
NSW 2006, Australia
Email: i.crozier@scifac.usyd.edu.au
"An entertaining essay might perhaps be written
on the sexlessness of historians; but it would be
entertaining and nothing more: we do not know
enough either about the historians or sex."
Lytton Strachey, 1931
___________________________________________________________________From: "King, Michael" <m.king@rfc.ucl.ac.uk>
Subject: RE: gay men lesbians and psychology/psychiatry
Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2000 12:02:21 +0100
This book can be purchased at Amazon.co.uk
Michael King
-----Original Message-----
From: Zoetanya Sujon [mailto:zsujon@hotmail.com]
Sheila Gilhooly and Persimmon Blackbridge collaborated on a
fantastic and very moving book called 'Still Sane'. I highly recommend it
to anyone, especially those who have an interest in the forced psychiatric
treatments of gay people up til the 1970's. This book juxtaposes Sheila
Gilhooly's powerful personal experiences of forced institutionalization in
the early 1970's for being a lesbin, with some facts and figures about
psychiatric treatments, institutions and practices. I don't have the year
it was published, but it was put out by 'Press Gang' Publishers in
Vancouver, Canada. I suspect this is a difficult book to track down - but
it is well worth it.
___________________________________________________________________From: "Zoetanya Sujon" <zsujon@hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: gay men lesbians and psychology/psychiatry
Date: Fri, 07 Apr 2000 11:55:56 GMT
>From: "King, Michael" <m.king@rfc.ucl.ac.uk>
>Subject: RE: gay men lesbians and psychology/psychiatry
>Date: Fri, 7 Apr 2000 12:02:21 +0100
>This book can be purchased at Amazon.co.uk
>>Michael King
>>-----Original Message-----
>From: Zoetanya Sujon [mailto:zsujon@hotmail.com]
It is not *purely* academic or from a cultural studies
>perspective. Sheila Gilhooly and Persimmon Blackbridge collaborated on a
>fantastic and very moving book called 'Still Sane'.
Ooooops. I'm glad it's not that hard to find after all.
Cheers,
Zoe
___________________________________________________________________From: "Alejandro Levis" <ancient-andean@almapintada.com>
Subject: Re: "rape free" cultures - Levis response
Date: Sat, 8 Apr 2000 03:07:17 -0400
Hello and thank you for your response,
>From your comments about "closed doors" and "reporting" I think you are
culture bound and might not have a clear notion of how anthropologists work
within tribal cultures. The Amazonian tribes east of Iquitoes, for one of
hundreds of examples, lived in tribal houses with about 60 families... the
anthropologist of course slept with in the tribal house with everyone else.
Thus, no "closed doors". Everyone, including the anthropologist sees and
hears everything. Since there is no codified legal system there would be no
reporting beyond the communal gatherings over tobacco. In addition, you have
taken the position that "feminists around the world" are the only ones who
are competent to define "rape" for everyone else throughout history, a
rather colonialist view point in that "feminists" are bringing their baggage
of repressive Christian sexual morality to a world with its own valid
ideology.
If you choose not to believe that there is extrememly little rape in
sexually supportive matrilineal tribal cultures, that is your preogative,
but its based on belief, not facts. That is why I say that western women,
particularly feminists with an anti-sex viewpoint, NEED to believe that men
in all cultures are rapists. I hypothesize that where violence isn't mixed
up with sexuality, as it is in white man's (sic) culture AND where sexuality
is celebrated, there is no need for rape and subsequently very little rape
and practically zero culturally defined adult-child sexual victimization.
I put up some new pages tonight that those interested in the ethnoshistory
of sexuality might enjoy. A bit about tribal life, sexuality, betrothal,
marriage etc.amongst Amazonian "cannibal" tribes east of Iquiotos circa
1908-1915, and five pages of photos by Capt. Whiffen can be found at
http://www.almapintada.com/sexuality/amazonia.htm .
I might add that the girls in that area, which is somewhat close to my home
btw, were married and began their sexual life some 5-6 years before puberty
with older teenage men. Its a shame we didn't get feminist sexophobes down
there in 1908 to measure the emotional damage, rape index etc. from marrying
so young.
Levis
___________________________________________________________________
From: Kazetnik@aol.com
Date: Sat, 8 Apr 2000 04:43:57 EDT
Subject: Re: "rape free" cultures - Levis response
Levis wrote:
<< "feminists" are bringing their baggage
of repressive Christian sexual morality to a world with its own valid
ideology. >>
Might it not demonstrate a more self-reflexive intellect if you were to
examine your assumptions and generalizations about feminists as you are
demanding that we examine our assumptions and generalizations about rape?
Perhaps you should undertake an ethnographic study of how feminists live in
the wild? Although there is of course always the necessity to take into
account how the anthropologist's presence in the hut may affect the behaviour
of those who live there.
Chris
___________________________________________________________________Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2000 15:18:40 -0500
From: Sheila McManus <smcmanus@YorkU.CA>
Subject: Re: teen sexuality
I've been following this fast-paced debate as best I could over the last
few days and have finally been pushed far enough to jump in. In my humble
opinion, to assert that there is no way teenagers are able to consent to
sexual contact does an enormous disservice to the intelligence and
decision-making skills of your average 16 or 17 year old as well as
ignoring the reality that teens have sex (with each other, with older
people) whether their parents want them to or not. Insisting that 16 or
17 yr-olds be treated as asexual innocents as part of a larger campaign to
protect actual children also strikes me as dangerously naive. I'm not
sure what magical transformation is supposed to take place when youth turn
18, but why not teach them how and when to say yes and no so they can do so
safely and intelligently?
Sheila McManus
* * * * * * * * * *
Sheila McManus
Ph.D. Candidate, Department of History, York University
smcmanus@yorku.ca
___________________________________________________________________From: "Chenier, Elise" <echenier@indiana.edu>
Subject: Rape and Hostility
Date: Sat, 8 Apr 2000 20:40:37 -0500
Mr. Levis,
In your original post you stated that you were hoping this was a community
of scholars, researchers and others who approached questions about sexuality
with open and curious minds. You have, if my experience as a list member is
any indication, found just the place. However, at no time has the kind of
vitriolic hostility evident in your last message been welcome. I think I
speak for the majority when I say that unless your change your tone, and
quit the name-calling, your thoughts are neither interesting, inspiring,
open-mined nor welcome.
Levis wrote:
>I might add that the girls in that area, which is somewhat close to my
>home
>btw, were married and began their sexual life some 5-6 years before
>puberty
>with older teenage men. Its a shame we didn't get feminist sexophobes >down
>there in 1908 to measure the emotional damage, rape index etc. from
>marrying
>so young.
>Levis
___________________________________________________________________Subject: Re: "rape free" cultures - Levis response
Date: Sat, 08 Apr 2000 20:49:31 -0800
From: "andrei-f" <andrei-f@goplay.com>
Dear Alejandro,
First I must add my voice to the two members who found your tone out
of place. Cheap sarcasm does not belong in thoughtful intellectual
debate.
That being said, I was taken by your phrasing,
>... where sexuality is celebrated...
It reminded me of a passage I had read a while ago (I am embarassed
to admit I can't recall where at the moment) which mentioned that the
native (Amazon?) word for vagina was "dawn." I could not help but
contrast it in my mind with the English versions, which in mainstream
culture are either unprintable and laden with aggressive
connotations, or are coldly medical latinisms.
Andrei
___________________________________________________________________
From: "Alejandro Levis" <ancient-andean@almapintada.com>
Subject: Apology - Levis
Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2000 03:59:02 -0400
To everyone:
Bueno! Lo siento. I apologize. And thanks you for the tip, I never thought
of the terminology used for genitalia in the manner you have suggested and
I haven't been looking for the vocabulary lists. I should be.
I have an abrasive style of writing, sorry.
Just put up a sneak preview: "The Vedda -Cave Dwellers of Sri Lanks - 1911."
No text yet but some wonderful pictures by Seligmann. You might note that
girls were commonly married before puberty, a practise that was common
amongst the Tamils (and the Amazonians to mention a few). I might also note
that the women painted the cave paintings and the mainstay of the diet was
wild honey and yams.
May I hear some opinions on the following topic from an historical and
anthropological viewpoint: "Emotional/psychological damage arising from
non-violent prepubertal sex is culturally created, not innate?" I have not
formed any opinion on this complex issue.
http://www.almapintada.com/sexuality/vedda.htm
The Amazonia pages had over 400 visits the first 24 hours!
http://www.almapintada.com/sexuality/amazonia.htm
Levis
___________________________________________________________________
Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2000 02:02:53 -0700 (PDT)
From: technotoy <technotoy@yahoo.com>
Subject: Homosexuals and the Third Reich
Have any of you seen the new documentary by Rob
Epstein and Jeffrey Friedman on the fate of
homosexuals in the Third Reich? It's called Paragraph
175 and was very positively received by the press
here, where it was shown at the Berlinale. It's the
kind of thing that will be good for instructional
purposes, as it provides an informative overview
neatly packaged in about an hour. Those of you who
have studied the subject will probably not find too
much new, except for some moving live interviews.
There is also an astonishingly complete exhibition on
homosexuals in the concentration camp Sachsenhausen.
The exhibition is split between the Schwules Museum in
Berlin and the camp Sachsenhausen. They've been able
to track down over 700 individual cases of homosexuals
incarcerated and often killed in Sachsenhausen. Until
now, the specifics have been lacking in discussions of
the fate of homosexuals in the Third Reich, but this
exhibition goes a long way toward remedying that
situation. The catalog, by Joachim Mueller and Andreas
Sternweiler, _Homosexuelle Maenner im KZ
Sachsenhausen_ (Berlin:Verlag Rosa Winkel, 2000), is
fascinating reading.
=====
Robert Tobin
Conrad-Blenkle-Str. 58
10407 Berlin Germany
(030) 4280 3109
___________________________________________________________________From: ralfdose@t-online.de
Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2000 12:19:23 +0200
Subject: Homosexuals and the Third Reich
In addition to Robert Tobin's mail on the Sachsenhausen exhibit: for
those of you who read German, there is a second book on the same
period, but focussing on Berlin criminal court trials against male
homosexuals between 1933-1945. This one completes the picture with a
lot of details from never before published files in the Berlin State
Archive. It gives the statistic data, the political background as
well as 16 case studies. These are moving stories from the files
about individual fates, which differ a lot--not all of of them end up
in a camp. Both books should be translated into English as soon as
possible --any ideas where to find the money?
Andreas Pretzel and Gabriele Rossbach:
Wegen der zu erwartenden hohen Strafe. Homosexuellenverfolgung in
Berlin 1933-1945. Hrsg. vom Kulturring in Berlin e.V.
Berlin: Verlag rosa Winkel 2000
ISBN-386149-095-1
Ralf Dose M.A.
Magnus-Hirschfeld-Gesellschaft e.V.
Forschungsstelle zur Geschichte der Sexualwissenschaft
Chodowieckistr. 41, D-10405 Berlin
http://www.in-berlin.de/user/hirschfeld
x49-30-441 39 73 office phone
ralfdose@magnus.in-berlin.de office e-mail
x49-30-215 94 74 home phone
ralfdose@t-online.de home e-mail
___________________________________________________________________
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 09:43:50 -0700
From: chris dummitt <cdummitt@sfu.ca>
Subject: Re: "rape free" cultures - one last thought
Bob wrote:
>>I'm curious about the arguments/claims of "sociobiologists." As this
>is far from my field, could someone provide some bibliography of
>these (essential) sociobiologists?
>
A good start on the alleged biologic link (based on Darwinian thinking)
between men and violence includes:
[Sorry, I don't have all the exact dates of pub, etc with me]
Daly, Martin and Margo Wilson. _Homicide_. New York: Aldine de Gruyter,
1988.
Ghiglieri, Michael P. _The Dark Side of Man: Tracing the Origins of Male
Violence_ Perseus.
Tiger, Lionel. _The Decline of Males_ Golden Books.
Wrangham, Richard and Dale Peterson. _Demonic Males: Apes and the Origins
of Human Violence_. Boston and New York: Houghton Mifflin, 1996.
I'm not at all certain that this type of work is considered "respectable"
by other biologists. My suspicion is that they are at least sympathetic
but I'm just not sure.
The fullest use of this literature by a historian is:
Courtwright, David T. _Violent Land: Single Men and Social Disorder from
the Frontier to the Inner City_. Cambridge, Mass.: Harvard University
Press, 1996.
I have a great deal of concerns with this literature that I won't bother
you with here but for some alternative work on violence that locates it
historically, see:
Norbert Elias, _Civilizing Process_
Pieter Spierenburg, "Long-Term Trends in Homicide: Theoretical Reflection
and Dutch Evidence, Fifteenth to Twentieth Centuries," in Eric A. Johnson
and Eric H. Monkkonen eds., _The Civilization of Crime: Violence in Town
and Country Since the Middle Ages_ (Urbana and Chicago: University of
Illinois Press, 1996).
Spierenburg, "Faces of Violence: Homicide Trends and Cultural Meanings:
Amsterdam, 1431-1816," _Journal of Social History_ 27-4 (1994):
Hope this helps
_______________________
Chris Dummitt
Doctoral Candidate
Department of History
Simon Fraser University
_______________________
___________________________________________________________________
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 09:53:21 -0700 (MST)
From: Tim Hodgdon <Tim.Hodgdon@asu.edu>
Subject: Re: Bibliography on sociobiology
Bob:
Since this is more Christopher's field than mine, I'll defer
to his judgment on core bibliography. But here's one edited
collection that's particularly on point:
The Nature of the sexes : the sociobiology of sex
differences and the "battle of the sexes" / J.M.G. van der
Dennen (ed.).
Publisher: Groningen : Origin Press, c1992.
Bibliog.: Includes bibliographical references.
Contents
Sex differences in sensory functions / Weiert Velle --
Gender differences in the perception of vocal sexiness / Hal
Daniel & Robert McCabe -- The evolutionary rationale behind
the 'battle of the sexes' / Johan van der Dennen -- Sex
differences and aggression / Tore Bjerke -- Sex differences
in sexual and aggressive behavioural systems / Johan van der
Dennen -- Cultural universals in the making of sex
identities / Peter Meyer -- Differences between husbands and
wives / Robin Russell ... [et al.] -- Men, women, resources,
and politics in pre-industrial societies / Bobbi Low -- Sex
differences in international politics? / Vincent Falger --
Aspects of sex and aggression in man / Johan van der Dennen
-- Sociobiology and feminism : enemies or allies? / Ullica
Segerstråle.
Tim Hodgdon
Ph.D. candidate
Department of History
Arizona State University
Tim.Hodgdon@asu.edu
On Mon, 10 Apr 2000, Bob wrote:
> Histsex:For historians of sexuality - http://homepages.primex.co.uk/~lesleyah
> > Christopher wrote ... in part:
> > Even
> if - as the sociobiologists argue - the cause of men's aggression is
> hormonal/biological, the meaning and target of this aggression changes
> dramatically over time and culture.
> > And Tim observed ... in part:
> > >While change over time
> >captures the historical imagination more quickly than
> >stasis, we can't afford to neglect the tenacity of male
> >supremacy -- in fact, the more sophistication with which
> >historians document change over time, the more that the
> >tenacity of the idea and practice of male supremacy begs
> >explanation. However differently we boys set out to do
> >it--still, we do it. Sociobiologists are quick to use this
> >fact to claim that it's the genetic legacy of evolution.
> > I'm curious about the arguments/claims of "sociobiologists." As this
> is far from my field, could someone provide some bibliography of
> these (essential) sociobiologists?
> > Thanks,
> Bob
> ___________________________________________________________________
Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2000 14:02:06 -0500
From: Bob <suannschafer@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Bibliography on sociobiology
Thanks, Tim, I appreciate it.
>Bob:
___________________________________________________________________Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 12:53:26 +0100 (BST)
From: RM CLEMINSON <R.M.Cleminson@Bradford.ac.uk>
Subject: Hispanic Lesbian and Gay Culture Conference 5 May 2000
Dear colleagues
This conference may be of interest to some subscribers.
*****************************
Department of Modern Languages, University of Bradford
HISPANIC LESBIAN AND GAY CULTURE
THIRD ANNUAL CONFERENCE
FRIDAY 5 MAY 2000
09.30 - 16.30
Programme
Richard Cleminson, (University of Bradford)
Towards a history of male homosexuality in Spain
Jackie Collins, (University of Northumbria at Newcastle)
Lola van Guardia's Plumas de Doble Filo - Cutting through the stereotypes
Ramon Garcia (California State University)
New Iconographies: Film Culture in Chicana/o Cultural Production
Ahmed Haderbache (University of Valencia)
20 anos de sida en la literatura francesa y espanola
Ana Monleon (University of Valencia)
El lesbianismo en la obra de Esther Tusquets
Domingo Pujante (University of Valencia)
La presencia del homosexual masculino y femenino en la dramaturgia de
Fernando
Arrabal
Alison Sinclair (University of Cambridge)
All the H's: Hildegart, Havelock and Homosexuality
Location: Room C30, Richmond Building, University of Bradford,
Bradford, West Yorkshire, BD7 1DP
Cost #20.00 / #10.00
For more details and registration contact Richard Cleminson, tel 01274
234580, email r.m.cleminson@bradford.ac.uk
******************************
Dr.Richard M. Cleminson
Lecturer in Spanish Studies
Department of Modern Languages
University of Bradford
Bradford, West Yorkshire
BD7 1DP
http://www.expert.brad.ac.uk/r_m_cleminson/
tel: +1274 234595
fax: +1274 235590
___________________________________________________________________Subject: Request about gay composers
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 17:57:08 -0800
From: "andrei-f" <andrei-f@goplay.com>
Hello,
One of the visitors to the Androphile Project
( http://www.androphile.org ) sent the following letter:
-------------------------------------------------------------
From: popom <popom@surferz.net>
Subject: re: opera CD, please help
Date: April 11, 2000 6:37:02 PM EDT
To: <editor@androphile.org>
I am a Turkish opera singer (a soprano) who is currently living in the
United States. I've been planning to make a recording of some of my
favorite composers, just to realize that most of them are gay. This
made me
decide to dedicate a CD just to homosexual composers.
After doing some research, I have run into the difficulty, given my
lack of
access to academic institutions, of finding credible evidence of the
sexual
lives of composers from the 19th century or earlier. Although several
websites list many of these composers as being gay, I cannot verify
any of
this using the resources available to me. The ones are:
Georg Friedrich Handel (1685 - 1759)
Jean-Baptiste Lully (1632 - 1687)
Johann Mattheson (1681-1764)
Nicola Porpora (1686-1768)
Johann Rosenmüller (1619 - 1684)
Georg Philipp Telemann (1681-1767)
Thomas Augustine Arne (1710-1778)
Ludwig von Beethoven (1770-1827)
Karl Czerny (1791-1857)
Johann Ladislaus Dussek (1760-1812)
Franz Schubert (1797-1828)
Vincenzo Bellini (1801-1835)
Samuel Butler (1835-1902)
Frédéric Chopin (1810-1849)
Stephen Foster (1826-1864)
Edvard Grieg (1843-1907)
N.A. Rimski-Korsakov (1844-1908)
Camille Saint-Saens (1835 - 1921)
Sir Arthur Sullivan (1842-1900)
Giuseppe Verdi (1813-1901)
Richard Wagner (1813-1883)
While before the 20th century people were less public about their
sexual
lives, I would very much appreciate your help in verifying from the
above
composers who would make the most appropriate selections for this
disc. In
addition, any articles on the subject that could be used for liner
notes
would be helpful as well.
Thank you very much,
Elif Savas Felsen
darbe@altavista.net
www.elifsavas.com
--------------------------------------------
If anyone can help him out please get in touch with him directly
(though it might be interesting to let everyone here know as well).
Thanks,
Andrei
___________________________________________________________________
Date: Wed, 12 Apr 2000 22:47:05 -0500
From: Bob <suannschafer@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Request about gay composers
>This
>made me
>decide to dedicate a CD just to homosexual composers.
I'm not sure whether such an effort should be lauded for its
celebration or despised for its ghettoization ...
___________________________________________________________________From: "Chris Willis" <chris@chriswillis.freeserve.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Request about gay composers
Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2000 08:43:09 +0100
Hi!
Looks a bit male-dominated! Then again I can't think of many female
composers, gay or otherwise. How about Ethel Smyth?
All the best
Chris
=========================================
Chris Willis
School of English and Humanities
Birkbeck College
Malet Street
London WC1E 7HX
Chris@chriswillis.freeserve.co.uk
http://www.chriswillis.freeserve.co.uk/
___________________________________________________________________Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2000 11:20:56 +0200
From: Jens =?iso-8859-1?Q?Rydstr=F6m?= <jens.rydstrom@historia.su.se>
Subject: Zoophilia
Can anybody help me quickly with a word? I am proof-reading an article (due
for publishing next june) for Journal of the History of Sexuality and have
come across this problem:
What is the most common English word for a person who is sexually attracted
to animals? Is it "zoophile" or "zoophiliac"? I believe I have seen both.
Jens
Jens Rydström tel: +46-8-84 50 60 (h)
Dept of History tel: +46-8-674 71 05 (w)
Stockholm University fax: +46-8-16 75 48 (w)
S-106 91 Stockholm
Sweden
jens.rydstrom@historia.su.se
http://www.historia.su.se/safari/artiklar/rydstrom.htm
Queerseminariets hemsida:
http://www.kvinfo.su.se/Andra/queersem.htm
___________________________________________________________________
From: Victor5678@aol.com
Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2000 05:32:22 EDT
Subject: Re: Zoophilia
zoophile
___________________________________________________________________Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2000 12:04:05 +0200
From: Jens =?iso-8859-1?Q?Rydstr=F6m?= <jens.rydstrom@historia.su.se>
Subject: Re: Zoophilia
Thank you for a quick answer!
J
Jens Rydström tel: +46-8-84 50 60 (h)
Dept of History tel: +46-8-674 71 05 (w)
Stockholm University fax: +46-8-16 75 48 (w)
S-106 91 Stockholm
Sweden
jens.rydstrom@historia.su.se
http://www.historia.su.se/safari/artiklar/rydstrom.htm
Queerseminariets hemsida:
http://www.kvinfo.su.se/Andra/queersem.htm
___________________________________________________________________From: "Donna Larsen" <ladydonna85@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Request about gay composers
Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2000 09:02:16 PDT
I know I will laud it for it's celebration. I think this is a wonderful
project. Good luck with it.
___________________________________________________________________From: "Donna Larsen" <ladydonna85@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Request about gay composers
Date: Thu, 13 Apr 2000 09:04:34 PDT
One thought for a resourse. You may want to contact the folks at gaybc.com.
They may be able to help in several ways. This is a gay internet radio
network.
___________________________________________________________________From: "Chris Willis" <chris@chriswillis.freeserve.co.uk>
Subject: Prince Albert's Prince Albert
Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2000 09:55:48 +0100
Hi!
Could I pass on a query from the Victoria List?
Is there any evidence that Prince Albert actually had the type of
body-piercing known as a Prince Albert (a piercing through the urethra,
through which a ring or some other sort of metal jewellery can be slotted)
or is this just a piece of folklore?
All help would be appreciated! Many thanks.
All the best
Chris
=========================================
Chris Willis
School of English and Humanities
Birkbeck College
Malet Street
London WC1E 7HX
Chris@chriswillis.freeserve.co.uk
http://www.chriswillis.freeserve.co.uk/
=========================================
___________________________________________________________________From: "Donna Larsen" <ladydonna85@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Prince Albert's Prince Albert
Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2000 14:35:02 PDT
Just talked to a freind of mine who has been piercing for about 15 years.
His story is that While there is no historical evidence that Prince Albert
had the piercing that one of his consorts did. My freind also suggests that
you may want to reach Cold Steel, they do piercing and manufacture jewlry.
They are in the Camden High Distict.
___________________________________________________________________
Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2000 18:00:43 -0500
From: Bob <suannschafer@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Prince Albert's Prince Albert
>Just talked to a freind of mine who has been piercing for about 15
>years. His story is that While there is no historical evidence that
>Prince Albert had the piercing that one of his consorts did. My
>freind also suggests that you may want to reach Cold Steel, they do
>piercing and manufacture jewlry. They are in the Camden High
>Distict.
For those of us on the distaff side of the pond, have they a website?
:)
___________________________________________________________________Date: Sat, 15 Apr 2000 00:08:15 -0700
From: Eric Grace <ericgrace@home.com>
Subject: Re: Prince Albert's Prince Albert
I received this response courtesy of a learned member on another list:
This is actually unknown. It's most likely folklore. Much of what
we now know as body piercing history was made up by Doug Malloy,
who bankrolled the Gauntlet. He developed most of the techniques
and jewelry for the various piercings. Along the way, he made up
histories for many of them. While there are some, like the nasal
septum, ears, and lips that have actual historical precedents,
there are others that he just sort of made up history for. The
Prince Albert story is one that falls into this category.
There is a bit about piercing history that does not specifically
mention the Prince Albert at:
http://www.faqs.org/faqs/bodyart/piercing-faq/historical/
There is another article about this at:
http://www.queernet.org/LeatherOnline/LO_002_Gauntlet.html
And finally, there is one article that speaks directly
about the Prince Albert story at:
http://www.urbanprimitive.com/academia/piercing/main.html
___________________________________________________________________From: "Lesley Hall" <lesleyah@primex.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Prince Albert's Prince Albert
Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2000 17:25:47 +0100
Aaaargh!!!
(I've just got back from a conference to the numerous postings on the other
list about this subject)
Lesley Hall
lesleyah@primex.co.uk
website http://homepages.primex.co.uk/~lesleyah
___________________________________________________________________Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 22:26:50 -0500
From: Bob <suannschafer@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: "rape free" cultures - one last thought
Christopher wrote ... in part:
Even
if - as the sociobiologists argue - the cause of men's aggression is
hormonal/biological, the meaning and target of this aggression changes
dramatically over time and culture.
And Tim observed ... in part:
>While change over time
>captures the historical imagination more quickly than
>stasis, we can't afford to neglect the tenacity of male
>supremacy -- in fact, the more sophistication with which
>historians document change over time, the more that the
>tenacity of the idea and practice of male supremacy begs
>explanation. However differently we boys set out to do
>it--still, we do it. Sociobiologists are quick to use this
>fact to claim that it's the genetic legacy of evolution.
I'm curious about the arguments/claims of "sociobiologists." As this
is far from my field, could someone provide some bibliography of
these (essential) sociobiologists?
Thanks,
Bob
___________________________________________________________________Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 18:09:33 -0700 (MST)
From: Tim Hodgdon <Tim.Hodgdon@asu.edu>
Subject: Re: "rape free" cultures - one last thought
On Mon, 10 Apr 2000, chris dummitt wrote:
> Histsex:For historians of sexuality - http://homepages.primex.co.uk/~lesleyah
> > Tim,
> > I wonder if you could explain why you say this:
> > At 08:17 PM 09/04/00 -0700, Tim Hodgdon wrote:
> >Colleagues: Before this thread fades from memory, I would
> >like to follow up on Sheila McManus's argument that sexual
> >coercion is a phenomenon much broader than male-supremacist
> >legal systems' definitions of rape. n sexual politics.
> >> > Do you mean that sexual coercion goes beyond the law itself? If so, I
> entirely agree.
Yes, we're in agreement.
> Do you mean that sexual coercion goes beyond
> "male-supremacist" systems/thinking generally? If so, I would like you to
> explain a bit more.
No. Since human beings are culture-bound, I don't expect to
find spaces outside male supremacy within male-supremacist
cultures. This does not preclude *resistance to* male
dominance, but -- as feminist activists will attest -- one
of the inherent difficulties that feminist movements face is
the necessity of building a movement from within the
oppressive conditions they seek to change.
What I was suggesting in my earlier message is the idea (not
original with me) that within sexist culture, there are no
bright lines one can draw between the sexually voluntary and
the sexually coerced. That's not to say that there's no
difference between various points along the continuum that
ranges from extremes of coercion and extremes of voluntarism
-- clearly, an analysis that cannot register such
differences is reductionist. But so, too, is an analysis
that cannot register the continuities along that continuum.
Furthermore, an analysis that takes consent at face value,
without inquiring into the culture's sexual politics and
without taking into account the capacity of culture to
manufacture consent for a whole range of oppressive
conditions -- such an analysis amounts to little more, in my
view, than intellectual complacency in service to the status
quo.
> My primary research is on the relationship between
> men/masculinity and violence including but not limited to
> sexual violence. And I am increasingly wary of
> transhistorical arguments about this connection. Even if
> - as the sociobiologists argue - the cause of men's aggression
> is hormonal/biological, the meaning and target of this
> aggression changes dramatically over time and culture.
I'd be interested to hear more about your research, since my
own dissertation treats the construction of masculinity
within the U.S. hippie counterculture, 1964-late 1970s.
I share your concern about the validity of transhistorical
arguments. Even supposing that I and another scholar of
opposite persuasion were to agree that a certain number of
cultures were undeniably structured around the fundamental
principle of male dominance, I would certainly insist that
each perpetuates male dominance in its own ways, and that
the means and ends of that dominance would likely change
considerably over time. What's more, it's clear to me that
within my own society, men differ sharply over the
desirability of particular means and ends -- Larry Flynt and
Jerry Falwell feel no sense of brotherhood, regardless of
the fact that both, in my opinion, do their damnedest to
perpetuate women's social subordination. I'd be surprised
to find cultures within which men did not come into conflict
over the appropriate means and ends by which to perpetuate
their privileged status. So there's plenty of change over
time, and variation by social location, with which to argue
persuasively for a historicist interpretation of patriarchy.
At the same time, I urge historians of sexuality not to lose
sight of commonalities and continuities across historical
periods and across cultures. While change over time
captures the historical imagination more quickly than
stasis, we can't afford to neglect the tenacity of male
supremacy -- in fact, the more sophistication with which
historians document change over time, the more that the
tenacity of the idea and practice of male supremacy begs
explanation. However differently we boys set out to do
it--still, we do it. Sociobiologists are quick to use this
fact to claim that it's the genetic legacy of evolution. I'm
not convinced, and I have faith that there is a better and
more historicist explanation -- but this is one case where
the better explanation, the one that takes better account of
the complexity of human culture, will remain unpopular for
the forseeable future partly because of the changes and
sacrifices its recognition would make morally imperative,
and partly because of its complexity and honesty about the
limits of historical knowledge about the past, especially
the sexual past.
Tim Hodgdon
Ph.D. candidate
Department of History
Arizona State University
Tim.Hodgdon@asu.edu
___________________________________________________________________
From: "Pilar Ulibarri" <pilar338@hotmail.com>
Subject: Partial-birth abortion: link in "evolution?"
Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 00:27:32 EDT
I am a graduating journalism student at Florida International University. I
am researching partial-birth abortions through computer-assisted reporting,
part of which includes joining mailing lists (preferably,
intellectually-based lists such as the "History of Sexuality").
I'd like to pose a question on my research topic. If there is a history of
sexuality, there must be an evolution of sexuality (as with anything). Is it
possible to discuss an evolution of abortion? If so, is partial-birth
abortion the next or final logical link in the evolution of abortion? What
could be a next possible phase of this evolution? How would this affect
human culture?
___________________________________________________________________
From: MillerJimE@aol.com
Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 02:15:13 EDT
Subject: Re: Partial-birth abortion: link in "evolution?"
I think you first need to divide the question into two areas -- the
development of medical technology (the ancient Romans practiced abortion, but
not with our modern medical technology) and the development of the ethics /
legalities of abortion. An important question is whether either one
influenced the other, or if mutual influence seems rather minimal. How do
market forces influence either area?
The first question could be divided between the classic medical fields of
medicine (pessiaries to RU487) and surgery (which includes partial-birth
abortion). Related issues are the development of technology to help
premature births survive, and inter-uterine surgery to help defective fetuses
develop normally.
Under the second question there is (in the USA) the patchwork of states
where abortion was or was not legal prior to Roe v. Wade, the mobilization of
the Christian Right, the question of whether discharging embryos constitutes
abortion -- and whether women on the pill understood that this was happening,
the incest-and-rape argument, the survival rate of premature births, and the
collective pointed ignoring of the one Biblical text which deals with this
issue directly -- Ex 21:22-25. Periphial issues also to be explored include
the question of whether non-procreative sex is legitimate -- a question which
motivates a substantial minority of abortion opponents.
Also interesting is the question of how abortion is handled in
non-western cultures, especially where the government is heavily involved in
promoting abortion for birth control (e.g. China). Resistance to abortion
probably varies considerably. Some cultures merely promote procreation, but
others have specific moral issues with terminating pregnancy.
This is a long-winded way of saying, are you interested in how the
medical field developed partial-birth abortion (surgical method and market
forces)? Or are you interested in how some medical personel came to the
ethical decision to practice this form of abortion in rare cases, and how the
Religious Right developed this issue as their poster-child against all
abortion, including RU487? Are you interested in how this practice developed
in the USA & Europe, or are you interested in how it is, or is not practiced
throughout the world?
Jim Miller
__________________________________________________________________
From: "Rictor Norton" <norton@rictor.freeserve.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Public Urinals
Date: Sun, 16 Apr 2000 22:03:24 +0100
A belated response: There are pictures of a French urinal circa 1875 and a
Dutch urinal circa 1880 (specifically designed to prevent homosexual
contact), and several very good discussions of the homosexual use of urinals
in _Queer Sites: Gay Urban Histories since 1600_, ed. David Higgs
(Routledge, 1999), a book which I highly recommend.
In my book _Mother Clap's Molly House_ I have an illustration of the
Lincoln's Inn Bog Houses which were built circa 1680 and which were the site
of several homosexual encounteris in the early 1700s. I think I am the first
person to identify what these buildings were in this print.
--
Rictor Norton
mailto:norton@rictor.freeserve.co.uk
http://www.infopt.demon.co.uk/rcnorton.htm
___________________________________________________________________
From: "Pilar Ulibarri" <pilar338@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Partial-birth abortion: link in "evolution?"
Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 04:36:38 EDT
Hi Jim,
Thank you for the response. I actually enjoyed what you called
"long-winded." If I had to chose one (make that two) of the questions you
posed in your last paragraph I would have to say that I am interested in
"how the medical field developed partial-birth abortion" and "how this
practice developed in the USA & Europe," (mainly the USA) for the purpose of
my research. However, the other questions are equally, if not more so,
interesting and probably the type of questions I should be asking. So, if I
could pick your brain a little, I'd love to read your response(s).
Thanks
-Pilar Ulibarri
>From: MillerJimE@aol.com
>Reply-To: "Histsex:For historians of sexuality" <histsex@listbot.com>
>To: histsex@listbot.com
>Subject: Re: Partial-birth abortion: link in "evolution?"
>Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 02:15:13 EDT
>>Histsex:For historians of sexuality -
>http://homepages.primex.co.uk/~lesleyah
>> I think you first need to divide the question into two areas -- the
>development of medical technology (the ancient Romans practiced abortion,
>but
>not with our modern medical technology) and the development of the ethics /
>legalities of abortion. An important question is whether either one
>influenced the other, or if mutual influence seems rather minimal. How do
>market forces influence either area?
> The first question could be divided between the classic medical fields
>of
>medicine (pessiaries to RU487) and surgery (which includes partial-birth
>abortion). Related issues are the development of technology to help
>premature births survive, and inter-uterine surgery to help defective
>fetuses
>develop normally.
> Under the second question there is (in the USA) the patchwork of
>states
>where abortion was or was not legal prior to Roe v. Wade, the mobilization
>of
>the Christian Right, the question of whether discharging embryos
>constitutes
>abortion -- and whether women on the pill understood that this was
>happening,
>the incest-and-rape argument, the survival rate of premature births, and
>the
>collective pointed ignoring of the one Biblical text which deals with this
>issue directly -- Ex 21:22-25. Periphial issues also to be explored
>include
>the question of whether non-procreative sex is legitimate -- a question
>which
>motivates a substantial minority of abortion opponents.
> Also interesting is the question of how abortion is handled in
>non-western cultures, especially where the government is heavily involved
>in
>promoting abortion for birth control (e.g. China). Resistance to abortion
>probably varies considerably. Some cultures merely promote procreation,
>but
>others have specific moral issues with terminating pregnancy.
> This is a long-winded way of saying, are you interested in how the
>medical field developed partial-birth abortion (surgical method and market
>forces)? Or are you interested in how some medical personel came to the
>ethical decision to practice this form of abortion in rare cases, and how
>the
>Religious Right developed this issue as their poster-child against all
>abortion, including RU487? Are you interested in how this practice
>developed
>in the USA & Europe, or are you interested in how it is, or is not
>practiced
>throughout the world?
>Jim Miller
___________________________________________________________________From: "Lesley Hall"<lesleyah@primex.co.uk>
Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 09:26:05 gmt
Subject: Re: Partial-birth abortion: link in "evolution?"
>I'd like to pose a question on my research topic. If there is a history of
>sexuality, there must be an evolution of sexuality (as with anything). Is it
>possible to discuss an evolution of abortion? If so, is partial-birth
>abortion the next or final logical link in the evolution of abortion?
I think this question has to be seen in much longer terms around obstetric practices
- see e.g. Adrian Wilson's work on early modern midwifery - when if a labour
went on too long or the woman's life was endangered it was often the case that
the child was killed in order to extract it. This issue - killing the child
to save the mother's life vs saving the child but letting the mother die - went
on being a medical ethical issue. Also infanticide, esp in the early neonatal
period, perhaps fits in here? I am not sure how this links on to 'partial-birth'
abortion - my sense of 'evolution' (dubious word) as it affects abortion is
that there is increasing ability to identify pregnancy at a very early stage
and the rise of increasingly sophisticated methods (surgical and biochemical)
of early termination and that therefore earlier, rather than very late abortions,
become the norm.
Lesley Hall
lesleyah@primex.co.uk
homepage: http://homepages.primex.co.uk/~lesleyah
___________________________________________________________________From: "Margaretta Jolly" <jolly@moa.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: "rape free" cultures - one last thought
Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 12:47:23 +0100
I asked my mother, who is a sociobiologist, what she thought of this
discussion on the listserve. Responses, then from a sociobiologist:
"There has been a great hoo-haw about the Randy Thorndike new book on rape--I
suspect he has a good agent who was quick to stir up controversy. I did
read a short article which they brought out in The Sciences, out of which I
got the following points: Rape is about sex, not just violence. They claim
that Susan Brownmiller claims it is only about violence, not about sex.
My reaction: somebody is setting up straw men--surely if rape is defined as
violent sex, it is about both.
Second, that rape is an evolved trait--that is, it has benefited rapists to
the extent of leaving offspring often enough to be a potential behavior in a
large number of men. This again seems likely, if you take out-species
comparisons. Like orang-utans, rape is fairly common in humans. In a few
other primates, notably baboons and chimpanzees, a male may beat an oestrus
female if she tries to resist or run away. In most primates, indeed most
other animals, males do not bother with unwilling females, presumably
because they have vanishingly small chance of offspring in this situation.
However, of course this does not mean that rape is inevitable for most men,
or that rape is inevitable even given triggering circumstances (notably
being in a conquering army), or even that it has a particular instinctive
"module", appart from general male aggression and lust.
The third point in their article is that if women dress and act
provocatively, they are more likely to be raped, and that women should be
aware of this. There may be a few women so naive they don't know, but THIS
is Thorndike's proposed solution: a government administered rape education
course given at the time teenagers apply for their first driver's license!
Oh, dear.
On books:
Bob wrote:
I'm curious about the arguments/claims of "sociobiologists." As this
is far from my field, could someone provide some bibliography of
these (essential) sociobiologists?
A good start on the alleged biologic link (based on Darwinian thinking)
between men and violence includes:
[Sorry, I don't have all the exact dates of pub, etc with me]
Daly, Martin and Margo Wilson. Homicide. New York: Aldine de Gruyter,
1988.
This is the basic study of stepfather infanticide, et al, by two pioneers in
"Evolutionary Psychology" Worth looking at whether one agrees or not
Ghiglieri, Michael P. _The Dark Side of Man: Tracing the Origins of Male
Violence_ Perseus.
I haven't read it. He does good chimp work.
Tiger, Lionel. The Decline of Males Golden Books.
Again I have not read it.
Wrangham, Richard and Dale Peterson. _Demonic Males: Apes and the Origins
of Human Violence_. Boston and New York: Houghton Mifflin, 1996.
I reallly liked this. It is very good on chimp violence, and the trade-offs
between inter-troop warfare and within-troop male bonding. It argues that
we are like chimps, not in a simplistic "it is all inherited" way, but
because our ancestors had the ecology which would have led us to live in
fission-fusion groups, like chimps. That means that sometimes a man alone
would be caught by a larger band of males from another troop, and thus
vulnerable--much like tribal raiding today, not organized warfare.
They also consider bonobos, which with their female dominance seem to be
much more peaceful, as showing that lineges adapt genetic tendencies to
ecology. Bonobos diverged from common chimps after their joint ancestor
diverged from the human ancestor. If we are more like common chimps than
bonobos, it is because we shared an ecology and social system with the
chimps, while the bonobos evolved away on their own.
I'm not at all certain that this type of work is considered "respectable"
by other biologists. My suspicion is that they are at least sympathetic
but I'm just not sure.
Yes we are sympathetic, even though cautious. What we are good at is
discussing species-wide tendencies, not so much individual or population
differences. So if you get a species wide tendency, eg men are more violent
than women, or individuals with higher testosterone are both more
behaviorally violent and better muscled, we say, ok, this is an evolved
trait or correlation. What bothers us is when this turns into a
prescription about what teenage Americans should study along with the rules
of the road for their drivers' licenses.
___________________________________________________________________
Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 10:26:35 -0500
From: David Nicholas Harley <David.N.Harley.4@nd.edu>
Subject: Re: Partial-birth abortion: link in "evolution?"
Lesley Hall wrote:
>I think this question has to be seen in much longer terms around obstetric
practices
>- see e.g. Adrian Wilson's work on early modern midwifery - when if a labour
>went on too long or the woman's life was endangered it was often the case
that
>the child was killed in order to extract it. This issue - killing the child
>to save the mother's life vs saving the child but letting the mother die -
went
>on being a medical ethical issue.
David Harley comments:
I agree with Lesley, and would draw attention to the Paris versus
Manchester debate circa 1800 about caesarian section.
David Harley,
Dept. of History,
University of Notre Dame,
Notre Dame, Indiana 46556
tel.: 219-631-7789
___________________________________________________________________
Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 09:48:04 -0700 (MST)
From: Tim Hodgdon <Tim.Hodgdon@asu.edu>
Subject: Re: sociobiology and the politics of rape
Because of the complexity of the issues raised, I'll insert
my response between segments of the original message(s)
Tim Hodgdon
Ph.D. candidate
Department of History
Arizona State University
Tim.Hodgdon@asu.edu
On Mon, 17 Apr 2000, Margaretta Jolly wrote:
> I asked my mother, who is a sociobiologist, what she thought of this
> discussion on the listserve. Responses, then from a sociobiologist:
> > "There has been a great hoo-haw about the Randy Thorndike new book on rape--I
> suspect he has a good agent who was quick to stir up controversy. I did
> read a short article which they brought out in The Sciences, out of which I
> got the following points: Rape is about sex, not just violence. They claim
> that Susan Brownmiller claims it is only about violence, not about sex.
> My reaction: somebody is setting up straw men--surely if rape is defined as
> violent sex, it is about both.
"They" (perhaps Randy Thorndike and a collaborator?) are
superficially correct in the sense that Brownmiller, in
1974, did argue -- in effect -- that biology is destiny: men
rape because women are physiologically "rapeable." While I
do hear this line repeated often enough, even today, some
more thoughtful feminist activists on issues of sexual
violence have since repudiated Brownmiller's argument.
What's important to remember about Brownmiller is that she
was arguing in a very different social context: at the time,
received wisdom was that rape was about *sex,* and therefore
not about *violence,* and that rape was therefore not a
particularly serious injury to women if they were already
sexually active. Reversing the terms of the argument to
"violence, not sex," seemed, at the time, the best way to
change the terms of political debate, since it avoided
implicating sexual pleasure in male dominance. Feminists
were, and still are, accused of hating men or of "anti-sex"
politics when they argue(d) that pleasure that refies gender
enforces gender hierarchy. So, if some sociobiologists are
reducing Brownmiller's 1974 argument to "THE feminist
position on rape," they are guilty not of a "straw man"
(sic) argument, but of reductionism.
> Second, [Thorndike (et al.?) argue] that rape is an
> evolved trai[t--]t--that is, it has benefited rapists to
> the extent of leaving offspring often enough to be a potential behavior in a
> large number of men. This again seems likely, if you take out-species
> comparisons. Like orang-utans, rape is fairly common in humans. In a few
> other primates, notably baboons and chimpanzees, a male may beat an oestrus
> female if she tries to resist or run away. In most primates, indeed most
> other animals, males do not bother with unwilling females, presumably
> because they have vanishingly small chance of offspring in this situation.
Ah, yes, the "selfish gene" theory, which serves as the
biologistic equivalent of Freud's sex "drives," ignoring the
most salient fact about human adaptation to life on earth:
that the human adaptation is CULTURAL, not instinctual.
Nancy Tanner's brillian *On Becoming Human* does a far
better job of fitting the puzzle pieces together, arguing
that the relative LACK of pronounced sexual dimorphism in
humans came about as a result of the sexual selection
practices of proto-human females, who preferred mates well
socialized to a life of constant contact with juveniles
and females. From Tanner, I'd argue that rape, like
genocide, is simply one dimension of the very broad range of
potential human behavior, and that we find it prevalent
among humans at present because we organize our culture
around gender hierarchy -- and rape does a wonderful job of
reifying masculinity.
> However, of course this does not mean that rape is inevitable for most men,
> or that rape is inevitable even given triggering circumstances (notably
> being in a conquering army), or even that it has a particular instinctive
> m"modu apart from general male aggression and lust.
So, Hollywood's cave man was a case of science imitating
art?
> The third point in their article is that if women dress and act
> provocatively, they are more likely to be raped, and that women should be
> aware of this. There may be a few women so naive they don't know, but THIS
> is Thorndike's proposed solution: a government administered rape education
> course given at the time teenagers apply for their first driver's license!
> Oh, dear.
Well, garbage in, garbage out. Women who "dress and act
provocatively?" The self-serving politics of this
proposition hardly requires comment. If men are so
dangerous to women *by nature,* then can women only expect
to enjoy human dignity in men's absence? Or are
sociobiologists telling us that being the object of "general
male aggression and lust" *IS* women's claim to human
dignity?
> On books:
> > > Bob wrote:
> > I'm curious about the arguments/claims of "sociobiologists." As this
> is far from my field, could someone provide some bibliography of
> these (essential) sociobiologists?
> > > [Another list member responded:]
> A good start on the alleged biologic link (based on Darwinian thinking)
> between men and violence includes:
> > [Sorry, I don't have all the exact dates of pub, etc with me]
> > Daly, Martin and Margo Wilson. Homicide. New York: Aldine de Gruyter,
> 1988.
> > This is the basic study of stepfather infanticide, et al, by two pioneers in
> "Evolutionary Psychology" Worth looking at whether one agrees or not
> > > Ghiglieri, Michael P. _The Dark Side of Man: Tracing the Origins of Male
> Violence_ Perseus.
> > I haven't read it. He does good chimp work.
> > > Tiger, Lionel. The Decline of Males Golden Books.
> > Again I have not read it.
> > > Wrangham, Richard and Dale Peterson. _Demonic Males: Apes and the Origins
> of Human Violence_. Boston and New York: Houghton Mifflin, 1996.
> > I reallly liked this. It is very good
> on chimp violence, and the trade-offs
> between inter-troop warfare and within-troop male bonding. It argues that
> we are like chimps, not in a simplistic[, i]"it is all
> inherited [w]" way, but
> because our ancestors had the ecology which would have led us to live in
> fission-fusion groups, like chimps.
> That means that sometimes a man alone
> would be caught by a larger band of males from another troop, and thus
> vulnerable [m]--much like tribal raiding today, not
> organized warfare.
> They also consider bonobos, which with their female dominance seem to be
> much more peaceful, as showing that lineges adapt genetic tendencies to
> ecology. Bonobos diverged from common chimps after their joint ancestor
> diverged from the human ancestor. If we are more like common chimps than
> bonobos, it is because we shared an ecology and social system with the
> chimps, while the bonobos evolved away on their own.
> > > I [am] not at all certain that this type of work is
> considered "respectable"
> by other biologists. My suspicion is that they are at least sympathetic
> but I'm just not sure.
>
[Jolly's response:]
> Yes we are sympathetic, even though cautious. What we are good at is
> discussing species-wide tendencies, not so much individual or population
> differences. So if you get a species wide tendency, eg men are more violent
> than women, or individuals with higher testosterone are both more
> behaviorally violent and better muscled,
Why "better," not "different"?
> we say, ok, this is an evolved
> trait or correlation. What bothers us is when this turns into a
> prescription about what teenage Americans should study along with the rules
> of the road for their drivers l' li[ses].
Of course, students of human culture face a crucial
limitation: there is no way to control for the influence of
culture on human behavior; thus, while the presumption that
species-wide traits are evolved traits is one possible
interpretation, it's equally possible that the "evolution"
involved is cultural, not biological, and that selfish
egoes, not selfish genes, are an equally plausible
explanation for sexual behavior.
Tim Hodgdon
Ph.D. candidate
Department of History
Arizona State University
tim.hodgdon@asu.edu
___________________________________________________________________
Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 10:00:24 -0700
From: chris dummitt <cdummitt@sfu.ca>
Subject: Re: "rape free" cultures - one last thought
I'm not sure if you're mother will read my response but I'll take the
opportunity to write back regadless.
>>I asked my mother, who is a sociobiologist, what she thought of this
>discussion on the listserve. Responses, then from a sociobiologist:
>>"There has been a great hoo-haw about the Randy Thorndike new book on rape--I
>suspect he has a good agent who was quick to stir up controversy. I did
>read a short article which they brought out in The Sciences, out of which I
>got the following points: Rape is about sex, not just violence. They claim
>that Susan Brownmiller claims it is only about violence, not about sex.
>My reaction: somebody is setting up straw men--surely if rape is defined as
>violent sex, it is about both.
And this seems reasonable. But, of course, the feminist emphasis on
violence came about precisely because the previous social discourse focused
exclusively on sex in a way which depoliticized the very socially political
act of rape.
>Second, that rape is an evolved trait--that is, it has benefited rapists to
>the extent of leaving offspring often enough to be a potential behavior in a
>large number of men. This again seems likely, if you take out-species
>comparisons. Like orang-utans, rape is fairly common in humans. In a few
other primates, notably baboons and chimpanzees, a male may beat an oestrus
>female if she tries to resist or run away. In most primates, indeed most
>other animals, males do not bother with unwilling females, presumably
>because they have vanishingly small chance of offspring in this situation.
>However, of course this does not mean that rape is inevitable for most men,
>or that rape is inevitable even given triggering circumstances (notably
>being in a conquering army), or even that it has a particular instinctive
>"module", appart from general male aggression and lust.
These are the kinds of socio-biological arguments that I find most
disturbing and illogical. This argument takes the effect of rape (more
chances of children being born to the rapist) and assumes that it must be a
cause. It assumes that the desire for children (on some species level) is
driving a rapist. But there is absolutely no proof for such arguments
socially. Should the rapist be aware that he wants children? That he
wants to propogate? Or, is this some kind of Darwinian false-consciousness
in which it doesn't matter what the rapist may be conscious of, the
scientist really knows what he's thinking?
>The third point in their article is that if women dress and act
>provocatively, they are more likely to be raped, and that women should be
>aware of this. There may be a few women so naive they don't know, but THIS
>is Thorndike's proposed solution: a government administered rape education
>course given at the time teenagers apply for their first driver's license!
>Oh, dear.
>On books:
ANd this may also be logical. But my argument would be that this is a
mitigating factor and only operates within a larger and more important
cultural framework that makes rape possible. I'm not sure if these three
points are simply three controversial areas or his main arguments. If they
were the three main arguments, I would say that they leave out a great
deal, especially historical and cultural variation.
>>>Bob wrote:
>>I'm curious about the arguments/claims of "sociobiologists." As this
>is far from my field, could someone provide some bibliography of
>these (essential) sociobiologists?
>>>>A good start on the alleged biologic link (based on Darwinian thinking)
>between men and violence includes:
>>[Sorry, I don't have all the exact dates of pub, etc with me]
>>Daly, Martin and Margo Wilson. Homicide. New York: Aldine de Gruyter,
>1988.
>>This is the basic study of stepfather infanticide, et al, by two pioneers in
>"Evolutionary Psychology" Worth looking at whether one agrees or not
>>>Ghiglieri, Michael P. _The Dark Side of Man: Tracing the Origins of Male
>Violence_ Perseus.
>>I haven't read it. He does good chimp work.
>>>Tiger, Lionel. The Decline of Males Golden Books.
>>Again I have not read it.
>>>Wrangham, Richard and Dale Peterson. _Demonic Males: Apes and the Origins
>of Human Violence_. Boston and New York: Houghton Mifflin, 1996.
>>I reallly liked this. It is very good on chimp violence, and the trade-offs
>between inter-troop warfare and within-troop male bonding. It argues that
>we are like chimps, not in a simplistic "it is all inherited" way, but
>because our ancestors had the ecology which would have led us to live in
>fission-fusion groups, like chimps. That means that sometimes a man alone
>would be caught by a larger band of males from another troop, and thus
>vulnerable--much like tribal raiding today, not organized warfare.
>They also consider bonobos, which with their female dominance seem to be
>much more peaceful, as showing that lineges adapt genetic tendencies to
>ecology. Bonobos diverged from common chimps after their joint ancestor
>diverged from the human ancestor. If we are more like common chimps than
>bonobos, it is because we shared an ecology and social system with the
>chimps, while the bonobos evolved away on their own.
>>>I'm not at all certain that this type of work is considered "respectable"
>by other biologists. My suspicion is that they are at least sympathetic
>but I'm just not sure.
>>Yes we are sympathetic, even though cautious. What we are good at is
>discussing species-wide tendencies, not so much individual or population
>differences. So if you get a species wide tendency, eg men are more violent
>than women, or individuals with higher testosterone are both more
>behaviorally violent and better muscled, we say, ok, this is an evolved
>trait or correlation. What bothers us is when this turns into a
>prescription about what teenage Americans should study along with the rules
>of the road for their drivers' licenses.
>>
My rather brass suggestion for biologists sympathetic to these evolutionary
arguments would be to educate themselves on gender history - on how notions
of masculinity and femininity have changed over time. I say this after
having a conversation with a socio-biologist who visited my university (I
wish I could remember his name but it was a few years ago). He gave a
rather general talk on the promises of socio-biology and then answered
questions. I asked if he had considered this question about historical
change in masculinity and femininity that occurred over such a short time
to make an evolutionary answer illogical. His only response was that he
had worked with Anna Freud in Paris and was familiar with the work of
Freud. I can't say I was surprised but I was disappointed. Freud may have
had a lot to offer but we've come along way since then especially in
understanding historical change.
_______________________
Chris Dummitt
Doctoral Candidate
Department of History
Simon Fraser University
_______________________
___________________________________________________________________
Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 10:30:15 -0700 (MST)
From: Tim Hodgdon <Tim.Hodgdon@asu.edu>
Subject: Re: sociobiology and the politics of rape--An apology
List members, and particularly Ms. Jolly:
I'm having second thoughts about the message I just sent to
the list -- not the argument I make, but the way I made it.
I could have, and therefore should have made the points I
wanted to make in a far less abrasive fashion. I'd like to
apologize for the harm this causes to the free flow of ideas
here on the list.
Sincerely,
Tim Hodgdon
Ph.D. candidate
Department of History
Arizona State University
Tim.Hodgdon@asu.edu
___________________________________________________________________
From: Kazetnik@aol.com
Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 14:01:48 EDT
Subject: Re: sociobiology and the politics of rape
Hi all,
A couple of points.
Tim, you didn't strike me as having been at all abrasive. Forthright, maybe.
But that's only to the good.
Second, given this discussion some time back was looking at the broadening
definition of what constitutes the act of rape, what research, if any, has
been done on the incidence of female rapists, of men or women, of which there
are apparently apocryphal tales/urban myths in the former case, and claims of
the latter in a military or prison environment? And if it is possible to
locate such a phenomenon as a female rapist, what impact does this have on
theories of 'natural' male/masculine violence? And might it strengthen the
cultural conditioning claims, over and above any biological element, where
masculine behaviour is rewarded in certain spheres in women? Or is there
inevitably a recourse to the apparent driving power of hormones?
>From an inveterate cultural materialist/social constructionist.
Chris White
(PS It's nice to be able to put faces to some names on the list after the
Amsterdam conference!)
___________________________________________________________________
Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2000 23:37:10 -0500
From: Bob <suannschafer@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: "rape free" cultures - one last thought
>I would go one step further to add yet another complicating
>factor: the problematical nature of the concept of sexual
>consent. The meaning of "yes," and the meaning of desire,
>depend entirely on a culture's sexual politics, as enacted
>by the individuals involved.
As does the meaning of "no" -- whose meaning, like the meanings of
"yes" and desire, is not necessarily historically stable over time
even within one particular culture ....
>And we historians'
>interpretations depend very much on our own sexual politics.
As well as the many other factors that constitute "we" -- yet I'm not
so easily eager to slide the slippery slope into the morass of the
interpreter's relativism ....
___________________________________________________________________
Date: Sun, 09 Apr 2000 20:17:33 -0700 (MST)
From: Tim Hodgdon <Tim.Hodgdon@asu.edu>
Subject: Re: "rape free" cultures - one last thought
Colleagues: Before this thread fades from memory, I would
like to follow up on Sheila McManus's argument that sexual
coercion is a phenomenon much broader than male-supremacist
legal systems' definitions of rape. I concur with her, and
also with the other member of the list who made the
important point that the presence of an outside observer
does affect the behavior of those whom one observes. Thus,
the "absence of doors" noted by Sr. Levis does not make the
observation of sexual coercion in face-to-face societies any
simpler than in complex cultures.
I would go one step further to add yet another complicating
factor: the problematical nature of the concept of sexual
consent. The meaning of "yes," and the meaning of desire,
depend entirely on a culture's sexual politics, as enacted
by the individuals involved. And we historians'
interpretations depend very much on our own sexual politics.
Tim Hodgdon
Ph.D. candidate
Department of History
Arizona State University
Tim.Hodgdon@asu.edu
___________________________________________________________________
From: "Lesley Hall" <lesleyah@primex.co.uk>
Subject: Re: "rape free" cultures - one last thought
Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 19:47:48 +0100
A couple of points
>These are the kinds of socio-biological arguments that I find most
>disturbing and illogical. This argument takes the effect of rape (more
>chances of children being born to the rapist) and assumes that it must be a
>cause.
Also, I believe that the chances of pregnancy occurring from a single act of
intercourse, as opposed to several acts over a period of time, are fairly
minimal in the human (presumably the rapist has no way of knowing whether
the woman is ovulating - or do sociobiologists invoke some kind of pheromone
effect??)
>to make an evolutionary answer illogical. His only response was that he
>had worked with Anna Freud in Paris
I would mistrust this person utterly! After the years in Vienna, Anna Freud
was based in London (Hampstead, to be precise), where her clinic is still is
existence.
Lesley Hall
lesleyah@primex.co.uk
website http://homepages.primex.co.uk/~lesleyah
___________________________________________________________________
Date: Sun, 9 Apr 2000 13:14:46 +0100
From: Ianthe <ianthe@duende.demon.co.uk>
Subject: 'The Secret Room' - Naples, Italy: opens April 10th
** The Secret Room opens on April 10 at the National
Archaeological Museum, Naples, [Italy, Europe]. **
It has been locked away for nearly 200 years, supposedly
because it was too lewd to be seen by anyone except those
possessed of that very rare combination of great age and
extremely strict morals. But next week, and despite
vociferous protests from the Roman Catholic Church, the
"secret room" of the National Archaeological Museum in
Naples is finally opening its doors to the public.
The room houses a collection of erotic objects from
Pompeii and Herculaneum, the two Roman cities obliterated
when Vesuvius erupted in AD79.
Ash buried the cities, and when excavations of the sites
began in the 18th century, streets, houses and shops were
found in near-perfect preservation - providing a snapshot
of life in the pagan Roman Empire.
Early archaeologists were surprised to discover just how
drenched in sexual imagery that life was: statues,
paintings, mosaics, amulets, bracelets, necklaces, images
on shop fronts, in dining rooms, bedrooms and gardens - not
to mention the pictures in brothels.
The material was initially displayed openly, first in the
private collection of the Bourbon kings and then in the
Naples museum. But in 1819, Francis, heir to the Neapolitan
throne, was shocked by what he saw. He ordered the offending
material to be taken out of the public collection and placed
in a locked room. There it has remained ever since, expanding
inexorably as further excavations have added ever more
erotic objects to it.
[...]
One of the most remarkable aspects of the exhibition is
the extraordinarily fine quality of most of the erotic
work. Modern pornography is notable for its extreme
ugliness. Ancient porn artists strived after, and
occasionally achieved, beauty.
Many of the most distinguished artists of antiquity
painted explicitly erotic pictures. Tiberius had a picture
by the great artist Parrhasius, showing Atlanta performing
fellatio on Meleager. All of Parrhasius's work has
disappeared, but similar scenes are on display in this
show, almost certainly modelled on famous works by artists
like him. There appears to have been no anxiety about the
images. No one seems to have worried about their effect on
children, for instance.
Christianity put a stop to all that. Early Christians had
extreme - and, to pagans, unintelligible - views about sex.
Adultery was "worse than many murders", according to
Clement of Alexander, who, along with most of the Church
Fathers, was convinced that a life of total chastity was
best.
Christians were so hostile to sex that some even castrated
themselves. They believed that sex was radically evil and
the cause of almost all the ills of the world - however it
was performed.
That idea was unknown to pagans. It may explain why - as
this exhibition demonstrates - it was possible for them to
produce images of sex that are graphic without being ugly
or offensive.
** The Secret Room opens on April 10 at the National
Archaeological Museum, Naples, [Italy, Europe]. **
===fwd ends===
--
Ianthe Duende
___________________________________________________________________
Date: Mon, 10 Apr 2000 09:27:32 -0700
From: chris dummitt <cdummitt@sfu.ca>
Subject: Re: "rape free" cultures - one last thought
Tim,
I wonder if you could explain why you say this:
At 08:17 PM 09/04/00 -0700, Tim Hodgdon wrote:
>Colleagues: Before this thread fades from memory, I would
>like to follow up on Sheila McManus's argument that sexual
>coercion is a phenomenon much broader than male-supremacist
>legal systems' definitions of rape. n sexual politics.
>
Do you mean that sexual coercion goes beyond the law itself? If so, I
entirely agree. Do you mean that sexual coercion goes beyond
"male-supremacist" systems/thinking generally? If so, I would like you to
explain a bit more.
My primary research is on the relationship between men/masculinity and
violence including but not limited to sexual violence. And I am
increasingly wary of transhistorical arguments about this connection. Even
if - as the sociobiologists argue - the cause of men's aggression is
hormonal/biological, the meaning and target of this aggression changes
dramatically over time and culture.
thanks,
christopher dummitt
_______________________
Chris Dummitt
Doctoral Candidate
Department of History
Simon Fraser University
_______________________
___________________________________________________________________
Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 15:06:03 -0700
From: Melissa Korte <mk0005@drake.edu>
Subject: pornography
Hello.
My name is Melissa Korte and I am looking for any insight members of the list can lend into the topic of pornography--its history, how pornography arrived at its current state in our western culture, how this is different from other cultures, and how the human form was viewed in general in past cultures
Any books or magazine articles you could recommend would be welcome as well. Thank you very much for your time and help in my endeavor.
Melissa Korte
-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*
"I am delighted to add another unplayable work to the repertoire. I want the concerto to be difficult and I want the little finger to become longer. I can wait."
--Arnold Schoenberg, about his Violin Concerto
-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*
Melissa Korte
Drake University
Des Moines, IA
melismak@yahoo.com
___________________________________________________________________
Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 14:33:17 -0700 (MST)
From: Tim Hodgdon <Tim.Hodgdon@asu.edu>
Subject: Re: pornography
Hello, Melissa:
Members on this list will inundate you with recommendations.
I'm guilty of the same tendency, but I hope that these
titles will stand out in your memory if I tell you that no
one else on the list will recommend them to you -- they're
unique.
Catharine A. MacKinnon, "Does Sexuality Have a History?"
Michigan Quarterly Review 30, no. 1 (Winter 1991): 1-11.
John Stoltenberg, *What Makes Pornography "Sexy"?
Minneapolis: Milkweed Editions, 1994.
Andrea Dworkin, *Pornography: Men Possessing Women* repr.
ed., New York: Plume, 1989.
The MacKinnon article is crucial--if you don't look at the
others, look at that one.
Good luck!
Tim Hodgdon
Ph.D. candidate
Department of History
Arizona State University
Tim.Hodgdon@asu.edu
___________________________________________________________________Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 16:45:07 -0700
Subject: Re: pornography
From: "David Robinson" <dmrobins@U.Arizona.EDU>
There's a great collection called _Caught Looking_, put together by
pro-pornography feminists.
David Robinson
___________________________________________________________________
From: MillerJimE@aol.com
Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 20:44:08 EDT
Subject: Re: Partial-birth abortion: link in "evolution?"
In a message dated 04/17/2000 3:37:14 AM Central Daylight Time,
pilar338@hotmail.com writes:
<< So, if I
could pick your brain a little, I'd love to read your response(s). >>
Well, you may have slim pickings, because my area is more on the
questions of ethics rather than medical technology. I can tell you more
about what ancient Romans thought about abortion than the specifics of their
medical practice. Personally, I would also be interested in learning more
about the modern development of partial-birth abortion -- how recent is the
practice, and how frequently is it really performed?
I do think that if you are studying the development of medical
technology, you should include a study of technologies to correct fetal
defects or help premature births to survive. The advances in technology in
these areas are frequently cited in arguments against abortion, and indeed
these technologies may be in competition with partial-birth abortion. At
least some cases of partial-birth abortion cite fetal deformity or inability
to carry the fetus to term. Insofar as these are correctable, other
technologies could displace partial-birth abortion.
Jim Miller
___________________________________________________________________
Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 18:13:53 -0700
From: chris dummitt <cdummitt@sfu.ca>
Subject: Re: pornography
You might want to look at Linda Williams, _Hard Core: Power, Pleasure and
the Frenzy of the Visible_. I also recall a piece on this subject in
academia in the New Yorker sometime last year which focused on Williams and
Judith Butler.
best,
christopher d
Chris Dummitt
Doctoral Candidate
Department of History
Simon Fraser University
_______________________
___________________________________________________________________
Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 21:40:04 -0500
From: "M.E. Buszek" <buszekme@chickmail.com>
Subject: Re: pornography
For Melissa (and anyone else interested in the subject)...
I'm passing along some of the more useful bits from my dissertation's bibliography (on the
feminist use of the pin-up). Although I admit the material is (like the artworks my diss deals
with) slanted toward pro-sex feminist literature on pornography, it at the very least provides a
good cross-section of the various perspectives *within* that diverse group of feminist thinkers.
Hope you find it useful!
Maria Buszek
Ph.D. Candidate
Kress Foundation Department of Art History
The University of Kansas
-------------------------------------------
BIBLIOGRAPHY
Assiter, Alison. Pornography, Feminism, and the Individual. Winchester: Pluto Press, 1983.
----- and Avedon Carol (eds.). Bad Girls and Dirty Pictures: The challenge to reclaim
feminism. Boulder: Pluto Press, 1993.
Bright, Susie. Sexwise. San Francisco: Cleis Press, 1995.
-----. Sexual Reality: A Virtual Sex World Reader. San Francisco: Cleis Press, 1992.
-----. Sexual State of the Union. New York: Simon and Schuster, 1997.
Burston, Paul and Colin Richardson (eds.). A Queer Romance: Lesbians, Gay Men and Popular
Culture. New York: Routledge, 1995.
Califia, Pat. Public Sex: The Culture of Radical Sex. San Francisco: Cleis Press, 1994.
Carol, Avedon. Nudes, Prudes, and Attitudes: Pornography and censorship. New Clarion
Press, 1994.
Caught Looking: Feminism, Pornography, and Censorship. New York: Linco Printing, Inc.
1986.
Cossman, Brenda, Shannon Bell, Lise Gotell, and Becki L. Ross. Bad Attitude/s on Trial:
Pornography, feminism, and the Butler Decision. Toronto: University of Toronto Press, 1997.
Day, Gary and Clive Bloom. Perspectives on Pornography: Sexuality in Film and Literature.
New York: St. Martin's Press, 1988.
D'Emilio, John and Estelle B. Freeman. Intimate Matters: A History of Sexuality in America.
New York: Harper and Row, 1988.
Fraser, Laura. "Nasty Girls." Mother Jones (February/March 1990):32-35.
Frueh, Joanna. "The Erotic as Social Security." Art Journal 53, no.1 (Spring, 1993):66-72.
-----. Erotic Faculties. Berkeley: University of California Press, 1997.
Gamman, Lorraine and Marja Makinen. Female Fetishism. New York: New York University
Press, 1995.
----- and Margaret Marshment. The Female Gaze: Women as Viewers of Popular Culture.
Seattle: Real Comet Press, 1989.
Gibson, Pamela Church and Roma Gibson. Dirty Looks: Women, Pornography, Power.
London: British Film Institute, 1993.
Jackson, Stevi and Sue Scott (eds.). Feminism and Sexuality: A Reader. New York: Columbia
University Press, 1996.
Kaite, Berkeley. Pornography and Difference. Bloomington: Indiana University Press, 1995.
Kendrick, Walter. The Secret Museum: Pornography in Modern Culture. New York: Viking
Press, 1987.
Kipnis, Laura. Bound and Gagged: Pornography and the Politics of Fantasy in America. New
York: Grove Press, 1996.
-----. Ecstasy Unlimited: On Sex, Capital, Gender and Aesthetics. Minneapolis and London:
University of Minnesota Press, 1993.
Lord, M.G. "Pornutopia: How Feminist Scholars Learned to Love Dirty Pictures." Lingua
Franca 7, no.4 (April/May 1997):40-48.
Mason-John, Valerie. "The Bitter Debate." Feminist Art News 3, no.8 (1991):19-21.
McDonough, Yona Zeldis. "Confessions of a Female Pornographer." Women Artist's News 11,
no.5 (Winter 1986/87):16-17+
McNair, Brian. Mediated Sex: Pornography and Postmodern Culture. London: Arnold, 1996.
McQuiston, Liz. Suffragettes to She-Devils: The Graphics of Women's Liberation and Beyond.
San Francisco: Phaidon Press, 1997.
Meyerowitz, Joanne. "Women, Cheesecake, and Borderline Material: Responses to Girlie
Pictures in Mid-Twentieth Century U.S." Journal of Women's History 8, no.3 (Fall, 1996):9-35.
Nead, Lynda. The Female Nude: Art, Obscenity and Sexuality. London: Routledge, 1992.
Needham, Gerald. "Manet, Olympia, and Pornographic Photography." Art News Annual, no.38
(1972):81-89.
O'Brien, Glenn. "Pink Thoughts." Aperture 122 (Winter 1991):62-79.
Perkins Witt, Whitney. "Taking Back Pornography, Taking Back Sexuality: A case for feminist
pornography." Bachelor's thesis (Law/Women's Studies), Hampshire College, 1993.
Salaman, Naomi. "Why have there been no great pornographers?" In New Feminist Art
Criticism and Critical Strategies, edited by Katy Deepwell, 119-125. Manchester: Manchester
University Press, 1995.
Schneider, Jane Alison. "Slippery Subjects: Representing Feminist Sexuality in Film, Video and
Live Performance, 1972-1992." M.A. Thesis, University of California, San Diego, 1994.
Schneider, Rebecca. The Explicit Body in Performance. New York: Routledge, 1997.
Segal, Lynne and Mary McIntosh (eds.). Sex Exposed: Sexuality and the Pornography Debate.
New Brunswick: Rutgers University Press, 1993.
Sontag, Susan. "The Pornographic Imagination." A Susan Sontag Reader. New York: Farrar,
Straws, Giroux, 1982.
Sprinkle, Annie [Ellen F. Steinberg]. Post Porn Modernist. Amsterdam: Art Unlimited, 1991.
Vance, Carole S. "Feminist Fundamentalism-Women against images," Art in America 81, pt.9
(September 1993):35-37.
----- (ed.). Pleasure and Danger: Exploring Female Sexuality. London: Routledge, 1984.
Williams, Linda. Hard Core: Power, Pleasure, and the "Frenzy of the Visible." Berkeley:
University of California Press, 1989.
___________________________________________________________________
Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 15:26:45 +1000
From: Hera Cook <hera.cook@history.usyd.edu.au>
Subject: Re: pornography
Hi,
I would recommend
"Hard core: power, pleasure and the "Frenzy of the visible" by Linda Williams 1990.
I would also suggest that improvements in print and film technology during this century are of
major importance in understanding the vast expansion in availability and consumption of
pornography in this society. For example, here are some comments on Britain.
In the 1950s, British hard core pornography was often produced on gestetners, primitive copiers, and consisted of a few sheets stapled together. Some French material was imported at considerable expense but according to Martin Tomkinson, ("The Pornbrokers: The rise of the Soho sex barons," Tomkinson,Martin,
1982) the market was not big enough for profit to be made by catering to minority tastes such as child pornography. Following improvements in print technology; changes in Danish laws on pornography in 1967 and 1969; and as a result of massive police corruption in the West End of London, relatively large
quantities of more explicit sexual material became available in the late 1960s.
'In 1960, 5,600 books and magazines were impounded [by customs and excise authorities]; in 1968, about one and a half million.... A spokesman said that the trade had undoubtedly grown as a consequence of the free availability of pornography in Scandinavia.' Members of the Longford Committee Investigating
Pornography, Pornography: The Longford Report.1972 pp.306-7.
For a rather sweet discussion of English rubber fetishists in the 1960s see 'The undergrowth of
literature', 1969. Gillian Freeman.
The point of all this being that the expansion in wide availability of pornography is really very new. This is one of many reasons that I am uncomfortable with the importance Dworkin and McKinnon etc give to pornography. Unlike Tim, I would not have recommended Dworkin or McKinnon except as essential
primary sources. I think they provide essential insights as to why many people now think about pornography in the way they do but I find their arguments about why and how people (men) actually read, view or make pornography fundamentally unconvincing.
I also feel that if we start thinking seriously about violence and learnt expectations of control over women, instead of focusing on sex as the central issue then much unacceptable male behaviour becomes easier analyse and to address. Although it is not about pornography and it is not history, I found the
following book very helpful in terms of understanding male behaviour.
Adam Edward Jukes. Men who batter women, London:Routledge, 1999.
(And I also did not feel Tim was being at all abrasive - I found his response on socio-biology
very informative.)
Regards,
Hera
--
Hera Cook
History Department
MacCallum Building A17
University of Sydney
NSW 2006
Australia
Phone 61 2 9351 2862, Fax 61 2 9351 3918
___________________________________________________________________From: "Rictor Norton" <norton@rictor.freeserve.co.uk>
Subject: Re: sociobiology and the politics of rape
Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 08:42:30 +0100
To suggest that men are culturally conditioned (rather than biologically
conditioned) to commit rape would have to ignore the overwhelming evidence
that among mammals and primates, aggressive violence is a significant factor
in male sexuality rather than female sexuality. Since the rape-like patterns
of sexual behaviour that male mammals and primates practise are instinctual
rather than culturally learned, it's hard to see why cultural conditioning
would be the overriding factor for the virtually identical kind of behaviour
in human males (and not present to a significant degree in human females).
To say that men are brutes by nature may be to overstate the case, but there
really is no scientific doubt that sexually dimorphic factors such as
hormones play an important role in sexuality as well as sex/gender, and that
hormones are biologically inherited, not socially constructed.
Of course to say, as this recent book has, that men are biologically
programmed to commit rape, is not the final word on the subject, because the
evolutionary biology perspective cannot be used to say that men are
programmed to commit *crimes*. Crimes are socially constructed/defined,
and society presumably has the right to penalize those who violate its
cultural/political rules. So of course you can have a valid political
discussion about rape. The problem is, if you consider rape to be solely a
political issue, you risk wasting time and energy on proposing solutions
that simply won't work because they don't take account of the biological
factors. But that's a question for a social policies discussion list.
To bring the discussion back to the field of history, I don't think
there is any evidence that women in England have ever committed rapes to any
significant degree. I don't think this is because the victims of female
rapists are conditioned not to complain. If, for example, children around
the age of 10-11 are damaged by sexual force (which is one definition of
rape), even if their private parts are only blistered or bruised, their
cases do in fact come to the attention of the courts, and I don't think that
any such cases have involved a female rapist (at least not during the 18th
century, where I've read most of the trial summaries). The newspapers during
the 1720s regularly report a high number of male rapes and also a high
number of women murdering men and killing their bastard babies and creating
aggressive street disturbances. There are plenty of trials for females
committing murder or grievous bodily harm, but the sexual element is
missing. There are a fair number of cases during the 18th century when
prostitutes have solicited men and then assaulted them, almost always with
another male
partner who then appears on the scene and proceeds to rob the victim.
Aggressive female sex workers are a fairly common phenomenon, in the 18th
century as well as today in some city centres, but their actions hardly ever
(or never) occur in the context of them wanting to exert their sexual will,
or rape.
The case of Catharine Margaretha Linck, tried in Prussia in 1721, is very
interesting. She identified herself as a man and had sexual relations with
several women. She appears to have been a regular wife-beater. In one
instance she raped her wife (who at this stage knew she was a woman) and
forced her wife to perform oral intercourse on her stuffed leather dildo.
This of course is highly symbolic (and therefore "cultural"), but before you
can say that it supports the constructionist model rather than the
biological model, you need to consider the fact that Linck was an aggressive
tomboy from childhood: i.e. she had a lot of masculine characteristics.
Another lesbian, Anne Lister, in the 1820s dreamt of possessing a penis and
"having her will" with an unwilling female partner, and Anne Lister also had
masculine physical characteristics (e.g. big bone structure etc.; she was
sometimes mistaken for a man by her contemporaries). The current biological
model, based on findings of some dozen studies during the past few years, is
that lesbians are biologically differentiated from other women, and that
these differences are often due to the presence of testosterone in the womb
(some other studies also show that genetics are a factor; I am
oversimplifying the findings) and demonstrate that lesbians have masculine
biological characteristics (of which male pattern finger length is the
latest example). In female prisons, where female rape exists, there is a
significantly large population of pretty tough cookies who are notably
masculine even before they enter the prison situation and engage in male
role play. So if you find evidence of women committing rape, if these women
are either (a) lesbian or (b) have noted masculine characteristics aside
from the commission of rape, then this evidence will actually support the
biological model rather than the constructionist model. The constructionist
model would need to find significant evidence of heterosexual rape by
feminine women.
--
Rictor Norton
mailto:norton@rictor.freeserve.co.uk
http://www.infopt.demon.co.uk/rcnorton.htm
___________________________________________________________________
Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 10:25:27 +0200
From: Gert Hekma <hekma@pscw.uva.nl>
Subject: Re: pornography
Dear friends,
Surprised no one mentions Lynn Hunt (ed) The Invention of Pornography, NY
Zone books (1993) several editions; or Dorelies Kraakman, "Pornography in
Western Culture", in: Eder, Hall, Hekma (eds), Sexual Cultures in Europe 2:
Themes in Sexuality, Manachester MUP, 1999.
Gert Hekma
___________________________________________________________________
Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 12:22:32 -0700 (MST)
From: Tim Hodgdon <Tim.Hodgdon@asu.edu>
Subject: Re: pornography: Hera's discussion of modern pornography
Hera writes, in summation:
> The point of all this being that the expansion in wide availability of
> pornography is really very new. This is one of many reasons
> that I am uncomfortable with the importance Dworkin and
> M[a]cKinnon etc give to pornography.
Hera--Ironically, one of the reasons I find their argument
convincing is that they make precisely this argument about
the newness of wide availability, especially the new
capacities of video technology. To me, this suggests a
particular periodization of the history of sexuality, in
which the so-called "sexual revolution" can clearly be seen
as yet another stage in the development of liberalism. The
long liberal "revolution" has proceeded, in my view, not by
guaranteeing individual liberty through the communization of
power and resources, but rather by generalizing the feudal
prerogatives of the sovereign to the bourgeois individual;
and while stating formal equality in universal terms, has
practiced a substantive equality available to men based on
status: gender, race, class. Through modern pornography,
men get the once princely right to gaze upon the masses of
women -- though, of course, in a form, and with a
historically specific content and metalanguage that would
have been unimaginable to the feudal prince.
In my reading of MacKinnon's and Dworkin's work, it is
sexual objectification and the gendering of penetration in
the institution of intercourse that provide the historical
continuity between periods, not pornography per se, which
was not, as you point out, widely available until recent
times. For authority on this, note the word choice in the
key sentences of MacKinnon's 1982 article, "Feminism,
Marxism, Method, and the State: An Agenda for Theory":
"Sexual objectification is the primary process of the
subjection of women. It [not porn, per se] unites act with
word, construction with expression, perception with
enforcement, myth with reality. Man fucks woman; subject
verb object" (Signs 7, no. 3: 541).
Hera goes on to say:
> Unlike Tim, I would
> not have recommended Dworkin or McKinnon except as
> essential
> primary sources. I think they provide essential insights as to
> why many people now think about pornography in the way
> they
> do but I find their arguments about why and how people
> (men) actually read, view or make pornography
> fundamentally unconvincing.
On a similarly personal note (at that place where one's
scholarship stands rooted in subjective experience), all I
can say is this: I happened to be working at the U. of
Minnesota Law School when the McK/D seminar on pornography
and the law was held there. I was profoundly unhappy about
and uncomfortable with what they had to say about my
sexuality, particularly my enjoyment of pornography. But I
found that I couldn't just dismiss their argument because
they had my number. And, judging from the vitriolic
response (b.t.w., I'm not counting your message as one among
these) of men, and many women, of all political persuasions,
I surmised that it wasn't just my number that they had.
> I also feel that if we start thinking seriously about violence
> and learnt expectations of control over women, instead of
> focusing on sex as the central issue then much
> unacceptable
> male behaviour becomes easier analyse and to address.
As the quotation above from MacKinnon suggests, I find it
not such a simple matter to separate violence and sex --
hence my comments yesterday on Brownmiller's "sex, not
violence" construction of rape.
> Although it is not about pornography and it is not
> history, I found the
> following book very helpful in terms of understanding male behaviour.
> > Adam Edward Jukes. Men who batter women, London:Routledge, 1999.
I'll be interested to see if our library has that title--I'd
like to see what you mean.
> > (And I also did not feel Tim was being at all abrasive - I
> found his response on socio-biology very informative.)
Thanks. I've been battling insomnia for a couple of weeks,
and it's been warping my judgment on a number of levels.
Much more my usual self today.
Regards,
Tim Hodgdon
Ph.D. candidate
Department of History
Arizona State University
Tim.Hodgdon@asu.edu
___________________________________________________________________
From: Kazetnik@aol.com
Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 11:45:14 EDT
Subject: Re: sociobiology and the politics of rape
That last was way too intemperate and over-excited. I apologise for not
restricting myself to attacking the ideas described, rather than attributing
them to the author in so simple minded and assinine a fashion. Sorry. CW
___________________________________________________________________
From: Kazetnik@aol.com
Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 11:34:29 EDT
Subject: Re: sociobiology and the politics of rape
Hmmmm.
<< There are plenty of trials for females
committing murder or grievous bodily harm, but the sexual element is
missing. >>
Given that rape until the 1990s was a penis put without consent into a
vagina, no woman by definition could be guilty of rape. Also, given that
crime generally, and rape specifically, are culturally defined phenomena, and
that the same is true of male and female sexuality, the act will be
understood, labelled or conceptualised different across time and geography.
What we might now say about those women could be radically different from
what could have been said then.
<<Since the rape-like patterns
of sexual behaviour that male mammals and primates practise are instinctual
rather than culturally learned, it's hard to see why cultural conditioning
would be the overriding factor for the virtually identical kind of behaviour
in human males (and not present to a significant degree in human females).
To say that men are brutes by nature may be to overstate the case, but there
really is no scientific doubt that sexually dimorphic factors such as
hormones play an important role in sexuality as well as sex/gender, and that
hormones are biologically inherited, not socially constructed.>>
So do we all give up and go home now? If men are 'naturally' (hormonally,
whatever) rapists, what justification is there for not killing them all,
keeping their sperm, and annihilating all male progeny? There may be no
scientific doubt, but that was equally true of humeral theory, the sun
orbiting round the sun etc etc. To what extent do scientists (and every other
breed of student) only find the answers to the questions they (can) ask?
As to Linck and Lister, I would see this as much more akin to females
adopting the kinds of normative masculine behaviour that society values and
rewards. Can you, in cultural terms which determine women to be either
asexual or less sexual than men, be sexually active towards other women
unless you are something of a man? And what differences are there between the
17th and 18th centuries, where in the former the common belief was that women
were the more lascivious and insatiable sex, while in the latter women were
naturally less sexed, or just plain deviant (in which I include being working
class and a woman of colour)?
<<So if you find evidence of women committing rape, if these women
are either (a) lesbian or (b) have noted masculine characteristics aside
from the commission of rape, then this evidence will actually support the
biological model rather than the constructionist model.>>
I beg your pardon? Lesbians are biologically predestined to be sexually
aggressive? Of course there is much evidence of domestic and sexual violence
in lesbian relationships, but what you imply here is chilling. Are gay men
then less likely to be rapists than heterosexual men? This really needs some
serious justification!
Have we really not got beyond 'biology is destiny' yet? Or is this part of
the 'backlash'? All men are NOT rapists, but the logic of your argument is
that, given enough testosterone, it's an equal opportunity crime. Which
completely erases the changes across history to definition and understanding.
And which depresses the hell out of me as a passive shrug in the direction of
social change.
Chris White
___________________________________________________________________
Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 11:50:55 -0700
From: Heather Lee Miller <miller.1438@osu.edu>
Subject: Re: pornography
Melissa,
Having just written a chapter of my dissertation that attempts to argue
that pornography may be used as a valid historical source, I have quite a
list for you! Many of these are more theoretical than historical, but
given the serious lack of any work on pornography (other than more
contemporary theoretical works, such as those Tim mentioned), you've got
to use what you can! There are also important differences between
written pornography and visual pornography. Good luck and I hope this
helps.
Heather Miller
~~~~~~~~~~~
Dennis Allen, <italic>Sexuality in Victorian Fiction </italic>(Norman:
University of Oklahoma Press, 1993). (Mostly a discourse analysis of 4
major Victorian works [Pride and Prejudice, Cranford, Bleak House, and
the Picture of Dorian Gray]).
Anthony Comstock, <italic>Tips for the Young</italic>, ed. Robert Bremner
(Cambridge, Mass.: Belknap Press of Harvard University Press, 1967.
(Basic overview of Comstock's fight against obscenity in introduction
along with Comstock's own book.)
Celia R. Daileader, "The Uses of Ambivalence: Pornography and Female
Heterosexual Identity," <italic>Women's Studies </italic>26, no. 1
(1997): 73-88.
Murray S. Davis, <italic>Smut: Erotic Reality/Obscene Ideology
</italic>(Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 1983).
Carolyn Dean, "The Great War, Pornography, and the Transformation of
Modern Male Subjectivity<italic>," Modernism/Modernity </italic>3, no. 2
(1996): 59-72.
Luke Ford, <italic>A History of X: 100 Years of Sex in Film</italic>.
New York: Prometheus, 1999.
Timothy J. Gilfoyle, "Prostitutes in History: From Parables of
Pornography to Metaphors of Modernity," <italic>American Historical
Review </italic>104, no. 1 (1999): 117-41.
Ralph Ginzburg, <italic>An Unhurried View of Erotica </italic>(New York:
Helmsman Press, 1958. (very anecdotal and much of Hyde, below, is almost
verbatim from this book, which predated it by twenty years.)
Gordon Grimley, <italic>Wicked Victorians: An Anthology of Clandestine
Literature of the Nineteenth Century </italic>(London: Odyssey Press,
1970).
Simon Hardy, <italic>The Reader, the Author, His Woman, and Her Lover:
Soft-Core Pornography and Heterosexual Men </italic>(London: Cassell,
1998).
David Holbrook, ed., <italic>The Case against Pornography </italic>(La
Salle, Ill.: Library Press, 1973. (Mostly diatribes against porn and its
harmful effects on society and indivuduals.)
John Huer, <italic>Art, Beauty, and Pornography: A Journey through
American Culture </italic>(Buffalo, N.Y.: Prometheus, 1987).
Douglas A. Hughes, ed., <italic>Perspectives on Pornography </italic>(New
York: St. Martin's Press, 1970).
Lynn Hunt, ed., <italic>The Invention of Pornography: Obscenity and the
Origins of Modernity, 1500-1800 </italic>(New York: Zone Books, 1993).
Ian Hunter, David Saunders, and Dugald Williamson, eds., <italic>On
Pornography: Literature, Sexuality, and Obscenity Law </italic>(New York:
St. Martin's Press, 1993).
H. Montogomery Hyde, <italic>A History of Pornography </italic>(London:
Heinemann, 1964).
Walter Kendrick, <italic>The Secret Museum: Pornography in Modern Culture
</italic>(New York: Viking, 1987).
Kevin Kopelson, <italic>Love's Litany: The Writing of Modern Homoerotics
</italic>(Stanford, Calif.: Stanford University Press, 1994).
Dorelies Kraakman, "Reading Pornography Anew: A Critical History of
Sexual Knowledge for Girls in French Erotic Fiction, 1750-1840,"
<italic>Journal of the History of Sexuality </italic>4, no. 4 (1994):
517-48.
Eberhard Kronhausen and Phyllis Kronhausen, <italic>Pornography and the
Law: The Psychology of Erotic Realism and Pornography </italic>(New York:
Ballantine, 1959).
Larry L. Langford, <italic>Fiction and the Social Contract: Genocide,
Pornography, and the Deconstruction of History (</italic>New York: Peter
Lang, 1998).
Coral Lansbury, "Gynaecology, Pornography, and the Antivivisection
Movement," <italic>Victorian Studies </italic>28, no. 3 (1985): 413-37.
Neil M. Malamuth, "Sexually Explicit Media, Gender Differences, and
Evolutionary Theory," <italic>Journal of Communication </italic>46
(summer 1996): 8-31.
Richard Manton, ed., <italic>The Victorian Imagination, A Sampler:
Tastings from Forbidden Books </italic>(New York: Grove Press,1984).
(English porn, especially the literature that Charles Carrington, famed
pornographer published after 1880.)
Stephen Marcus, <italic>The Other Victorians: A Study of Sexuality and
Pornography in Mid-Nineteenth-Century England </italic>(New York: Basic
Books, 1966).
Iain McCalman, "Unrespectable Radicalism: Infidels and Pornography in
Early Nineteenth-Century London," <italic>Past & Present </italic>104
(1984): 74-110.
Brian McNair, <italic>Mediated Sex: Pornography and Postmodern Culture
</italic>(London: Arnold, 1996).
Joanne Meyerowitz, "Women, Cheesecake, and Borderline Material: Responses
to Girlie Pictures in the Mid-Twentieth-Century U.S.," <italic>Journal of
Women's History </italic>8 (Fall 1996): 9-35.
Peter Michelson, <italic>Speaking the Unspeakable: A Poetics of Obscenity
</italic>(Albany: State University of New York Press, 1993).
Peter Michelson, <italic>The Aesthetics of Pornography </italic>(New
York: Herder and Herder, 1971). (This was the first edition of Speaking
the Unspeakable.)
Ian Frederick Moulton, "Before Pornography: Explicitly Erotic Writing in
Early Modern England" (PhD. diss., Columbia University, 1995).
Melissa Mowry, "Dressing Up and Dressing Down: Prostitution, Pornography,
and the Seventeenth-Century English Textile Industry," <italic>Journal of
Women's History </italic>11, no. 3 (autumn 1999): 78-103.
Michael Perkins, <italic>The Secret Record: Modern Erotic Literature
</italic>(New York: William Morrow, 1976).
Ken Plummer, <italic>Telling Sexual Stories: Power, Change, and Social
Worlds </italic>(London: Routledge, 1995).
Margaret Reynolds, ed., <italic>Erotica Women's Writing from Sappho to
Margaret Atwood (</italic>New York: Fawcett Columbine, 1990).
C. H. Rolph, <italic>Does Pornography Matter? </italic>(London: Routledge
& Kegan Paul, 1961).
Vernon A. Rosario, <italic>The Erotic Imagination: French Histories of
Perversity </italic>(New York: Oxford University Press, 1997).
Lisa Z. Sigel, "Sexual Imaginings: The Cultural Economy of British
Pornography, 1800-1914" (PhD. diss., Carnegie Mellon University, 1996).
Joseph W. Slade, "Violence in the Hard-Core Pornographic Film: A
Historical Survey," <italic>Journal of Communication </italic>34, no. 3
(1984): 148-63.
Roger Thompson, <italic>Unfit for Modest Ears: A Study of Pornographic,
Obscene, and Bawdy Works Written or Published in England in the Second
Half of the Seventeenth Century </italic>(London: Macmillan, 1979).
Carol Thurston, <italic>The Romance Revolution: Erotic Novels for Women
and the Quest for a New Sexual Identity </italic>(Urbana: University of
Illinois Press, 1987.
Peter Wagner, "Review Essay: Researching the Taboo: Sexuality and
Eighteenth-Century English Erotica," <italic>Eighteenth-Century Life
</italic>8, no. 3 (1983): 108-15.
Wayland Young, <italic>Eros Denied: Sex in Western Society </italic>(New
York: Grove Press, 1964). (Anecdotal stories of pornography in Western
civilization, but mostly European and mostly pre-eighteenth century.)
___________________________________________________________________
Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 09:32:42 -0700
From: chris dummitt <cdummitt@sfu.ca>
Subject: Re: sociobiology and the politics of rape
Tim wrote:
>To suggest that men are culturally conditioned (rather than biologically
>conditioned) to commit rape would have to ignore the overwhelming evidence
>that among mammals and primates, aggressive violence is a significant factor
>in male sexuality rather than female sexuality.
I can't claim to be an expert on mammal and primate behaviour but it is
interesting to note that when the socio-biologist wrote in to comment on
this discussion, she claimed that rape is in fact rare among most primates.
Since the rape-like patterns
>of sexual behaviour that male mammals and primates practise are instinctual
>rather than culturally learned, it's hard to see why cultural conditioning
>would be the overriding factor for the virtually identical kind of behaviour
>in human males (and not present to a significant degree in human females).
>To say that men are brutes by nature may be to overstate the case, but there
>really is no scientific doubt that sexually dimorphic factors such as
>hormones play an important role in sexuality as well as sex/gender, and that
>hormones are biologically inherited, not socially constructed.
I think the problem here is one of too easily falling into the old
nature/nurture or biology/culture debate. We cannot so easily divide
between instinct and culture as you want to do. Hormones may cause
aggression but such hormones are released by external stimuli - they
interact with and are inseparable from culture. The meaning and enactment
of aggression takes its cue from this interaction.
>Of course to say, as this recent book has, that men are biologically
>programmed to commit rape, is not the final word on the subject, because the
>evolutionary biology perspective cannot be used to say that men are
>programmed to commit *crimes*. Crimes are socially constructed/defined,
>and society presumably has the right to penalize those who violate its
>cultural/political rules.
I think you are on the right track when you note the social/legal
construction of crime. But, again, you can't separate this from the
physical response. An awareness of this criminal/social context informs
the enactment of agression.
A good historical example is Norbert Elias' discussion of the
transformation of knightly behaviour from the Middle Ages to the early
modern and modern period. Here, the same kinds of slights and insults lead
to dramatically differing results. The hormones released might have been
the same but the action differed considerably.
best,
_______________________
Chris Dummitt
Doctoral Candidate
Department of History
Simon Fraser University
_______________________
___________________________________________________________________
From: Kazetnik@aol.com
Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 14:55:15 EDT
Subject: Subj: Re: sociobiology and the politics of rape
That last was way too intemperate and over-excited. I apologise for not
restricting myself to attacking the ideas described, rather than attributing
them to the author in so simple minded and assinine a fashion. Sorry. CW
___________________________________________________________________
Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 20:49:17 -0700 (MST)
From: Tim Hodgdon <Tim.Hodgdon@asu.edu>
Subject: A minor correction
On Tue, 18 Apr 2000, chris dummitt wrote:
> Tim wrote:
Oops--actually, the quote below didn't come from me, but
from someone commenting on a previous post by me.
Tim Hodgdon
Ph.D. candidate
Department of History
Arizona State University
Tim.Hodgdon@asu.edu
___________________________________________________________________
Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2000 11:01:44 -0500
From: Dar Weyenberg <dweyenbe@students.wisc.edu>
Subject: Re: sociobiology and the politics of rape
Histsex:For historians of sexuality - http://homepages.primex.co.uk/~lesleyah
Hello Tim
I am curvious how you are using "sex/gender" in the your statement (below).
In other words, a slash gender implies the same or interchangability in the
commonsenical use of the words. Or in other words, (in your usage of the
term), is the sexed body the same as the gendered body? If this is so? why
duplicate?
Thanks
dar
At 09:32 AM 4/18/00 -0700, you wrote:
>Histsex:For historians of sexuality - http://homepages.primex.co.uk/~lesleyah
>>>Tim wrote:
>.....
........
> Since the rape-like patterns
>>of sexual behaviour that male mammals and primates practise are instinctual
>>rather than culturally learned, it's hard to see why cultural conditioning
>>would be the overriding factor for the virtually identical kind of behaviour
>>in human males (and not present to a significant degree in human females).
>>To say that men are brutes by nature may be to overstate the case, but there
>>really is no scientific doubt that sexually dimorphic factors such as
>>hormones play an important role in sexuality as well as sex/gender, and that
>>hormones are biologically inherited, not socially constructed.
>..........
___________________________________________________________________
From: "Margaretta Jolly" <jolly@moa.u-net.com>
Subject: Fw: sociobiology and the politics of rape
Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 23:17:53 +0100
I have been following the responses to the snippet I posted from my mother's
views as a sociobiologist with interest. Thank you all for your varying
thoughts. I have argued the cultural case with her for years (!) (for
example, I find it hard to accept that 'lesbians are biologically
differentiated from other women' as suggested below, given the history of
lesbian feminism amongst much else), but have found myself lately wanting to
find a way to integrate biological influences. My hope is that
sociobiologists and biologists in general, are also becoming much less
'one-way' about understanding behaviour, viewing complex phenomenon such as
sexuality as multiply determined.
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