HISTSEX ARCHIVES: August 2000
© Lesley Hall and list contributors
Date: Tue, 01 Aug 2000 19:50:20 +1000
From: Hera Cook <hera.cook@history.usyd.edu.au>
Subject: Re: prison experience autobiographies
Hi,
The following book has a whole chapter on the author's sexual experiences in
prison.
Walls have mouths: a record of ten years penal servitude by Macartney,W.F.R.
Victor Gollancz 1936
Hera
Alyson Brown wrote:
> Histsex:For historians of sexuality - http://homepages.primex.co.uk/~lesleyah
>
> Dear list members
>
> I am under taking some work on the nature of prison cultures in the
> past in Britain. An aspect of this is how inmates coped with their
> sexuality and sexual desires in this kind of single sex environment,
> how this was expressed, or repressed, and the form this took
> within any prison subcultures. I have, thus far, been primarilly
> looking at prison autobiographies as well as writings on the
> sociology of the prison. Can anyone recommend any material on
> the nature of autobiographical material in revealing, and/or selecting
> past sexual emotion and/or experience?
>
> Thank you
>
> Alyson Brown
>
___________________________________________________________________
Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2000 16:33:22 +0100
From: "Sam Pryke" <PRYKES@HOPE.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: prison experience autobiographies
2 Books on prison worth looking at: Cohen and Talylor, Psychological Surivival and (much
better, in fact a brilliant book though it is some years since I read it) Victor Serge, Men in Prison.
Latter about author's time in a French gaol pre-1914 has a very powerful passage and fantasy and
degradation.
DR SAM PRYKE
___________________________________________________________________Subject: Depictions of charioteers
Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2000 17:12:43 -0800
From: "andrei-f" <andrei-f@goplay.com>
Hello,
A while ago we discussed the relationship between the charioteer
(driver) and the owner of the chariot (fighter). There is a wonderful
depiction of manned chariots on the Standard of Ur, from the British
Museum, currently on loan to the Morgan Library in New York. However,
this being a martial work, the amorous relationship between the two
warriors is in no way alluded to. Is anyone aware of any ancient
depictions of fighting pairs with affectionate or erotic overtones?
Thanks,
Andrei Foldes
___________________________________________________________________Subject: E. Carpenter?
Date: Sun, 13 Aug 2000 20:08:05 -0800
From: "andrei-f" <andrei-f@goplay.com>
H. I. Marrou, in his <i>A History of Education in Antiquity</i> cites
a study by a certain E. Carpenter, on the topic of pederasty as
magical initiation, "Beziehungen zwischen Homosexualitat und
Prophetentum", in <i>Jahrbuch fur sexuelle Zwischenstufen unter
besonderer Berucksichtung der Homosexualitat, Suppl.,</i> 1911. [My
apologies for the omission of the diacritical marks, which I have no
idea how to generate.]
Is anyone here familiar with this work or with its author? Has it
been translated into any other language?
Thanks for any help,
Andrei
___________________________________________________________________From: "Lesley Hall" <lesleyah@primex.co.uk>
Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2000 08:44:56 gmt
Subject: Re: E. Carpenter?
>H. I. Marrou, in his <i>A History of Education in Antiquity</i> cites
>a study by a certain E. Carpenter, on the topic of pederasty as
>magical initiation, "Beziehungen zwischen Homosexualitat und
>Prophetentum", in <i>Jahrbuch fur sexuelle Zwischenstufen unter
>besonderer Berucksichtung der Homosexualitat, Suppl.,</i> 1911.
This has to be a German translation of an article by the very well-known British
homophile Edward Carpenter. There are a number of studies of EC and his works
though nothing very recent (he is a topic I would commend to anyone on the list
looking for a research subject) and many of them more from the point of view
of his involvement with the British socialist movement, the suffrage movement,
pacificism, animal rights, eco-politics etc. I imagine that the subject of the
article cited would be treated in his _Intermediate Types among Primitive Folk:
a study of social evolution_ (1914). His most well-known works are _Love's Coming
of Age_ and _The Intermediate Sex_
Lesley Hall
lesleyah@primex.co.uk
homepage: http://homepages.primex.co.uk/~lesleyah
___________________________________________________________________
Date: Mon, 14 Aug 2000 04:34:10 -0700 (PDT)
From: Haiduk Press
Subject: Re: E. Carpenter?
Thank you, Leslie. I should have known, but I am so immersed in my book project that nothing else has filtered in from all the stuff I've been exposed to.
Cheers,
Andrei
___________________________________________________________________
Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2000 13:32:33 -0400 (EDT)
From: Mary-Jo Povisil <lefty@wam.umd.edu>
Subject: FEMINIST STUDIES 26.2 (fwd)
---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2000 13:16:09 -0400 (EDT)
From: Mary-Jo Povisil <lefty@wam.umd.edu>
Subject: FEMINIST STUDIES 26.2
The Summer Issue of FEMINIST STUDIES (26.2) is in the mail: FEMINIST
STUDIES 26.2 is a SPECIAL ISSUE. The topic is WOMEN AND HEALTH
The Table of Content follows:
Mary Lowenthal Felstiner, Casing My Joints: A Private and Public Story of
Arthritis
Saundra Murray Nettles, You Are Different Now
Jessica Rosenberg, Snapshot
Mae Scoby, The Way We Hold Our Bodies
Leslie J. Reagan, Crossing the Border for Abortions: California
Activists,Mexican Clinics, and the Creation of a Feminist Health Agency in
the 1960s
Johanna Schoen, Reconceiving Abortion: Medical Practice, Women's
Access, and Feminist Politics before and after Roe v. Wade (Review Essay)
Regina Morantz-Sanchez, Negotiating Power at the Bedside : Historical
Perspectives on Nineteenth-Century Patients and Their Gyneocologists
Janelle S. Taylor, Of Sonograms and Baby Prams: Prenatal Diagnosis,
Pregnancy, and Consumption
Sonalde Desai, Maternal Education and Child Health: A Feminist Dilemma
Jane Gerhard, Revisiting "The Myth of the Vaginal Orgasm": The Female
Orgasm in American Sexual Thought and Second Wave Feminism
Evelyn Torton Beck and Susan (Shanee) Stepakoff, Lesbians in
Psychoanalytic Theory and Practice (Review Essay)
Creative Work by Anne Halsey, Faulkner Fox, Nancy Roberts and
Riva Lehrer.
For more information: check out our website: www.inform.umd.edud/femstud
or email us at femstud@umail.umd.edu.
___________________________________________________________________Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2000 18:25:51 -0700 (MST)
From: Tim Hodgdon <Tim.Hodgdon@asu.edu>
Subject: QU: Lesbian history 1920-70 (fwd) (CROSS-POST FROM H-WOMEN)
Apologies for any duplication. If you reply, please be sure
to use the Reply-To address below. Thanks
Tim Hodgdon
Ph.D. candidate
Department of History
Arizona State University
Tim.Hodgdon@asu.edu
---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2000 07:00:30 -0500
From: Steven Reschly <sdr@truman.edu>
Reply-To: H-NET List for Women's History <H-WOMEN@H-NET.MSU.EDU>
To: H-WOMEN@H-NET.MSU.EDU
Subject: QU: Lesbian history 1920-70
From: Mara Dodge <mdodge@wisdom.wsc.ma.edu>
Hi -
I'm looking for general sources re attitudes towards lesbianism 1920-70 in
the U.S.
Or, to be more specific, responses/ attitudes towards lesbianism in women's
prisons. I'm aware of Estelle Freedman's article "The Prison Lesbian" in
Feminist Studies 22 (1996), 397-424. Does anyone know of any other analyses?
Thanks,
Mara Dodge
mdodge@wisdom.wsc.ma.edu
Westfield State College
westfield, MA 01080
___________________________________________________________________
From: Frances Bernstein <fbernste@drew.edu>
Subject: sexual revolution
Can anyone suggest some articles suitable for undergraduates on the
"sexual revolution" of the 60s and 70s?
Thanks,
Fran Bernstein
Dept. of History
Drew University
Madison, NJ 07940
___________________________________________________________________
From: JNKATZ1@aol.com
Date: Tue, 22 Aug 2000 11:53:41 EDT
Subject: Physical Impairment as Metaphor?
Does anyone know of a literary or other source that uses physical impairment
(a missing eye, or whatever) as a metaphor symbolizing a participant in
irregular sex, or, even better, specifically male-male sexual desire or
activity?
I'd very much appreciate any leads or citations.
Jonathan Ned Katz (jnkatz1@aol.com)
___________________________________________________________________
Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2000 11:20:49 -0700 (MST)
From: Tim Hodgdon <Tim.Hodgdon@asu.edu>
Subject: Re: sexual revolution
Prof. Bernstein: Are you searching for primary, secondary,
or a blend of readings? For primary sources, you might want
to take a look at Michele Clark, "Women's Liberation and the
Sexual Revolution," _Everywoman_ (Venice, Calif.), 12
January 1971, 13; and Roxanne Dunbar, "'Sexual Liberation':
More of the Same Thing," No More Fun and Games: A Journal of
Female Liberation, no.3, November 1969 (available,
respectivel, in the _Underground Newspaper Collection_
[microfilm] and _Herstory_ [microfilm]). For secondary
literature: Beth Bailey's "Sexual Revolution(s)," in _The
Sixties: From Memory to History,_ ed. David Farber (Chapel
Hill: UNC Press, 1994), 235-262, is convenient; so is a
section from D'Emilio and Freedman's _Intimate Matters._ I
find neither interpretation satisfying, however.
Tim Hodgdon
Ph.D. candidate
Department of History
Arizona State University
Tim.Hodgdon@asu.edu
On Fri, 1 Jan 1904, Frances Bernstein wrote:
> Histsex:For historians of sexuality - http://homepages.primex.co.uk/~lesleyah
>
> Can anyone suggest some articles suitable for undergraduates on the
> "sexual revolution" of the 60s and 70s?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Fran Bernstein
> Dept. of History
> Drew University
> Madison, NJ 07940
>
___________________________________________________________________
Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2000 15:03:26 -0400
From: Frances Bernstein <fbernste@drew.edu>
Subject: Re: sexual revolution
Dear Tim,
Thanks for your suggestions. I am looking for secondary literature. If
you can think of anything else, please let me know.
Thanks again,
Fran Bernstein
From: mimorris@netspace.net.au (Miranda E Morris)
Subject: Re: Physical Impairment as Metaphor?
Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2000 17:32:15 +1000 (EST)
There's a blind gay man in the 1961 film Victim (prod Michael Relph,dir
Basil Dearde, starring Dirk Bogarde). It seems to me that his blindness,
and his partner being the seeing eye, allows their bodies to legitimately
merge on a metaphorical level, and their physical intimacy to be acceptable
in the public arena.
Miranda Morris
mimorris@netspace.net.au
___________________________________________________________________
From: "Rictor Norton" <norton@rictor.freeserve.co.uk>
To: "Histsex:For historians of sexuality" <histsex@listbot.com>
Subject: Re: Physical Impairment as Metaphor?
There are two classic examples in American literature:
In Melville's _Billy Budd_ , Billy suffers from a stutter.
In Carson McCullers' _The Heart is a Lonely Hunger_, the symbolically named
character Singer is a deaf mute, which symbolizes his homoerotic love for
his friend Antonapoulos.
Physical disease, notably consumption (tuberculosis), is also a common trope
for homosexuality in late 19th-century and early 20th-century European
literature, e.g. Andre Gide's _The Immoralist_. On the surface the narrator
is spitting up blood, but on the symbolic level he is discovering his inner
homosexual identity. I have a lengthy analysis of this at
<http://www.infopt.demon.co.uk/gide.htm>. Late 19th-/early 20th-century
paintings often depict consumptive figures, often women, which is meant to
suggest either "sin" or repressed (hetero)sexuality, so maybe it's not
accurate to say it suggests homosexuality specifically. But the situation is
complex: e.g. in Mann's _The Magic Mountain_ the central character's
consumption represents his hopeless love for a woman who reminds him of a
boy at school from whom he once borrowed a pencil, a catalytic event that no
doubt possesses phallic symbolism. The beloved woman does not really possess
an existence independent from the boy, for whom she is a substitute, or,
more accurately, she is the container for repressed homosexual desire.
Some writers enjoy the paradox of this metaphor. In the first instance,
physical impairment is the result of homosexual repression, i.e. reflects
the damage caused by distorting one's real nature. But in the second
instance, physical impairment is the result of the "return of the
repressed", i.e. the conventional/normative self is further damaged by the
coming-to-the-surface of the alternative/deviant self. For example, Billy's
stutter gets worse as what he wants to say becomes more important, and
something similar happens in McCullers' novel, which is unbearably poignant
because of the inability to speak the love that dare not speak its name. And
in Thomas Mann's _Death in Venice_ we can see that Aschenbach willingly
succumbs to the plague (= Tadzio as Dionysus) and thereby kills himself, but
in the closing scene he is transfigured by affirming his real self (= Tadzio
as Apollo). Melville, McCullers and Gide develop their theme using obvious
Christian symbols (e.g. crucifixion is followed by resurrection), and Mann
uses obvious pagan symbols (descent into the underworld followed by
rebirth).
--
Rictor Norton, London
mailto:norton@rictor.freeserve.co.uk
http://www.infopt.demon.co.uk
___________________________________________________________________
Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2000 10:40:41 -0700
From: bonni <bonni@darkwing.uoregon.edu>
Subject: Anthology
Hi all,
I have been lurking around on this list for about six months now so it is
probably time to introduce myself. My name is Bonni Cermak and I am a Ph.D.
candidate at the University of Oregon. I am currently writing a dissertation
on the narratives of sexuality employed in sexual assault trials between
1920-1960 in the Los Angeles court system (I am focusing, in particularly, on
inter-racial and same sex cases). So, now that my introduction is out of the
way, what I really wanted to tell the list is that there is a new anthology
edited by Lizzie Reis (and published by Blackwell) on the history of sexuality
in the United States coming out very. I used the pre-publicatin version of
this work in the History of Sexuality course I taught this summer and the
students responded very well to the material (both articles and accompanying
primary documents). For more information see:
http://www.blakcwellpublishers.co.uk/asp/book.asp?ref=0631220801
Best,
Bonni Cermak
Department of History
University of Oregon
__________________________________________________________________
Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2000 15:02:09 -0700 (PDT)
From: Haiduk Press <haidukpress@yahoo.com>
Subject: The myth of Pelops and Poseidon
Since this seems to be a quiet time on the list I am
posting one of the Greek myths I have reconstructed
from a host of secondary sources (unfortunately but
inevitably), in the hope it will prove useful. Of all
the Greek homoerotic myths it is the one I find most
interesting, both in its depth as well as its
ramifications. Enjoy.
THE TALE OF PELOPS AND POSEIDON
Tantalus, the king of Sipylus, the oldest and holiest
city in Lydia, was a man wealthy beyond measure. He
was one of the sons of Zeus, and his dear friend as
well. The king of the gods confided many secrets in
him, and often invited him at banquet time to Mount
Olympus, where no mortal is to set foot, to partake of
the divine nectar and ambrosia. Tantalus, however,
swollen with pride, betrayed Zeus' trust, spilling his
secrets and smuggling out Olympian food for his mortal
friends to taste. Even greater than this was his other
offence: having invited the gods to a feast, he
devised a trick to test their wisdom. He had his son,
Pelops, "Muddy Face," cut into pieces and boiled in
the stew. The wary gods saw through his ruse and left
their food untouched, all except for Demeter, to whom
had fallen the shoulder, the portion of honor. She was
still so distracted by her daughter Persephone's
disappearance that she ate the flesh set before her.
For these crimes Tantalus' kingdom was laid waste, and
Zeus flung him down to Tartarus, where he was
condemned to eternal torment. Every time he bent to
drink the cool water in which he stood chin-deep, it
drained away leaving only dry sand for his lips to
taste. And when he grasped for the fruit-laden
branches overhead, a gust of wind would blow them out
of reach, every time.
Having thus punished the father, Zeus set about
restoring the son to life. He ordered Hermes to gather
the bones and flesh and return them to the cauldron,
upon which he then laid a spell. They were set to boil
again, and the fate Klotho, the spinner, joined them
back together. Demeter replaced the shoulder she had
eaten with one made of solid ivory, and Rhea, the
mother of all the gods, breathed new life into him,
while the god Pan danced a joyful dance.
The magic done, Klotho lifted Pelops whole from the
pure cauldron. Never one to be thought handsome, his
beauty was now beyond compare. As soon as Poseidon,
the god of the seas, laid eyes upon the radiant boy he
was struck with overwhelming love for him. His heart
broken by desire, he chased after the lad, lifted him
into his chariot, and flew with him to Mount Olympus.
In vain Dione, Pelops' despairing mother, sent
servants throughout Sipylus to look for him. Search as
they might, they found no trace of her son. In the end
the scullions revealed to her he had been boiled and
served to the gods, who seemed to have eaten every
last morsel. Meanwhile, on Mount Olympus, Poseidon
appointed Pelops his cup-bearer and lover. He fed the
youth on ambrosia, taught him to drive the golden
horses that drew his magic chariot and would have kept
him there forever, but the other gods, still smarting
over the experience with the boy's father, sent the
son back to the fleeting destiny of the human race.
Poseidon reluctantly parted from his friend, but not
before heaping great treasure upon him.
Later, when the first beard began to darken his
cheeks, Pelops went a-wooing the lovely Hippodameia,
daughter of king Oenomaus of Pisa, in the country of
Elis, and she fell for him. Her father, however, had
been warned by an oracle that he would meet his death
at the hands of the man who married his daughter.
Therefore he had decreed that whoever wanted to win
her hand had to beat him in a chariot race from Pisa
all the way to the altar of Poseidon on the Isthmus of
Corinth, a race in which the loser must die. He knew
well what he was doing, for he was a horseman without
peer, and his father, Ares, the god of war, had given
him two divine mares which were by far the best in all
of Greece. Thirteen brave young men had already come
as suitors, only to perish one by one in mid-race
under his lance, their heads now nailed to the side of
his house. Though Pelops was no mean driver of horses
himself, having learned the skill from a god, he had
his doubts, and decided to take no chances. He went
down to the sea shore, offered a sacrifice and called
on his old teacher and lover for assistance:
Look you, Poseidon! If you have had any joy of my
love and Aphrodite's sweet gifts, block the brazen
spear of Oenomaus, grant me the fleeter chariot by
Elis' river, and clothe me about in strength. Great
danger never descends upon a man without strength; but
if we are destined to die, why should one sit to no
purpose in darkness and find a nameless old age,
without any part of glory his own? My way lies this
hazard, yours to accomplish the goal.
The god, glad to be of help, gave him a golden chariot
that could roll over the ocean waves without wetting
its axles, drawn by a team of winged horses, tireless
and immortal. The grateful hero traveled home to Mt
Sypilus to give thanks to Aphrodite, dedicating to her
an image made of green myrtle-wood, and then decided
to really try out the chariot and see what it could
do. He and Cillus, his charioteer, set off across the
Aegean, and hardly had they time to look around before
they found themselves on the island of Lesbos. Pelops
was unharmed, but Cillus fell dead to the floorboards
of the chariot for the swiftness of the flight. That
night on Lesbos the ghost of Cillus came to Pelops in
a dream, and pleaded for the honors due to him. At
dawn, upon awakening, he burned the youth's body,
built a barrow over the ashes, and erected the temple
of Cillaean Apollo nearby. Then he set out across the
sea by himself, back to Elis.
After reaching Pisa he began to prepare for the race,
but on seeing the heads of the suitors nailed to the
house his doubts again began to grow within his
breast. Wanting to make sure all would go in his
favor, he bribed the king's charioteer, Myrtilus,
promising him half the kingdom and the first night
with Hippodameia if he won.
On the day of the race it fell to Pelops, as the
challenger, to be the first to start, and he sped off
as an arrow shot from a bow, with Hippodameia standing
besides him. After offering his customary sacrifice,
king Oenomaus took off after them, and caught up as
they were reaching the Isthmus. However, just as he
was about to spear Pelops in the back, the wheels of
his chariot flew off. Their bronze lynch pins had been
replaced by Myrtilus with fake ones made of bees' wax.
The chariot shattered into a thousand pieces and,
tangled in the reins, he was dragged to death by his
own horses, cursing his charioteer to die by Pelops'
hand. Thus Pelops was able to reach his lover's temple
in Corinth, and won Hippodameia's hand, and with it
the throne of Pisa.
As he was not about to keep his word to Myrtilus, he
shoved the young man out of the chariot while crossing
from one island to another, sending him to his death.
He and Hippodameia rode off, but unbeknownst to them
the drowning charioteer laid a curse upon him and his
house for his betrayal. This curse was to haunt the
son of Tantalus the rest of his life, and lay behind
the many troubles that befell him and his children.
Pelops and his wife had six sons, and he fathered yet
a seventh with the nymph Astyoche, a beautiful boy
named Chrysippus. He ruled well and wisely, and at his
death was buried at the ford of the Alpheios River. A
great tomb was erected over his grave, visited by
many, and all of western Greece was named after him.
Even today we call that land the "Island of Pelops," Peloponnesus
___________________________________________________________________
Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2000 00:27:31 -0700 (PDT)
From: katie mcgill <data@AnAustralian.com>
Subject: Sexuality Research
Hi-
My name is Katie McGill and I'm studying psychology (Honours) at the University of Newcastle.
Basically I'm doing a thesis on female sexual development and trialling a new form of
recruitment. Namely, a questionnaire on the internet. What I'm looking at is how female sexual
experience is influenced by sexual knowledge or understanding. Essentially if a female knows
where her clitoris, or G spot, or whatever is, does she orgasm more? Or alternatively, if a female
is orgasmic, how does she understand or explain her experiences (what is her theory of female
sexuality?)?
It's assumed that if a guy doesn't orgasm then something has gone "wrong", whereas if a girl
orgasms, then something has gone "right". This latent dichotomy underlies much of our
understanding of human sexuality. It's almost like the male orgasm is "natural" but the female
orgasm is an added "bonus". To what degree then is this orgasm gap due to the social theories of
why and how females orgasm?
Simulataneously, theories of female sexuality have been overturned again and again over the past 100 years. We've gone from the Victorian asexual image of the female to the Freudian debate concerning the "mature vaginal" vs "immature clitoral" orgasm to Masters and Johnson asserting that all female orgasms are essentially clitoral in nature to Perry and Whipple's emphasis on the G spot and female ejaculation (i.e. vaginal orgasms). So which theories are most representative of what women are experiencing and how are women reframing their experiences in terms of these theories?
The questionnaire itself takes about 1/2 an hour to complete and all answers are anonymous and
confidential. Participants need to be over the age of eighteen (as the questions are of a personal
nature) and have some form of sexual awareness (although do not need to have necessarily have
had intercourse) and while initially I was only going to ask females to respond, if I get enough
guys I will do a gender comparison of data at the end.
If anyone has the time to fill it out I would greatly appreciate it as I need at least 200 participants
for the results to be meaningful. The address is
http://psychology.newcastle.edu.au/research/sexual_development/Katie/infoform.html
Even, if people don't have the time to fill out the questionnaire I'd love to hear people's opinions
on the subject. Basically, how much of an influence do social explanations or attitudes have on
sexual experience? How often has it been found that simply by being told what to do and how to
do it, that people become orgasmic? If this is the case then we obviously need to get these
theories of female sexuality right, because it basically means that we can teach all women to
orgasm. If anyone has any suggestions as to essential references I can't write the thesis without
that would be appreciated too.
Thanks for your time and any comments- Katie (University of Newcastle).
data@AnAustralian.com
___________________________________________________________________Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2000 09:04:13 -0700 (PDT)
From: "=?iso-8859-1?q?Michael=20O'Rourke?=" <tranquilised_icon@yahoo.com>
Subject: Abraham Lincoln
Dear list,
I saw a brief but tantalizing reference in a newly
published article by G.S. Rousseau, "Foucault and the
Fortunes of Queer Theory", to a recent queering of
Abraham Lincoln. Does anyone know where this evidence
appeared?
Thanks in advance,
Michael O'Rourke,
PhD student,
University College Dublin.
___________________________________________________________________Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2000 14:10:11 -0400 (EDT)
From: Gregory {Greg} Downing <gd2@is2.nyu.edu>
Subject: Re: Abraham Lincoln
I have only a vague recollection of this and can't give refs (it's not my
area of research), but here is what I recall. At some point in the last two
or three years a youngish (?) scholar claimed to have some unpublished
written material of AL's that supposedly demonstrates that AL had homosexual
feelings. Others have expressed skepticism and have asserted that the
scholar in question is suspiciously keeping the evidence unpublished and
unavailable to others. I have the impression that most of the discussion has
taken place in nonspecialist periodicals and the popular press.
I cannot give assurances as to the complete accuracy of any of the
recollections, claims, and counterclaims contained in the prior para., but
if the issue interests you I would bet that there's a good deal of material
available concerning this topic both on and off the web.
Best, Greg Downing
Greg Downing, at greg.downing@nyu.edu or gd2@is2.nyu.edu
___________________________________________________________________
Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2000 13:28:02 -0700 (PDT)
From: Lisa Diguardi <diguardi@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Abraham Lincoln
I believe you are talking about Larry Kramer. To the best of my
knowledge, he is not a historian but an activist and playwright.
I, too, was very skeptical about his claims.
-Lisa Diguardi
___________________________________________________________________Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2000 08:13:08 +0200
From: Jens =?iso-8859-1?Q?Rydstr=F6m?= <jens.rydstrom@historia.su.se>
Subject: Re: Abraham Lincoln
Leila Rupp writes in her "A Desired Past" (U of Chicago Press 1999), p 48:
"The revelation that Abraham Lincoln shared a double bed (and his most
private thoughts) with general store proprietor Joshua Speed as he started
out on his illustrious career in Springfield, Illinois, has attracted a
great deal of attention, leding on the one hand to claims that this means
he was "gay" and on the other to attempts to use this piece of history to
raise awareness of the different ways that male intimacy could be expressed
in the past." And in the note she refers to
David Herbert Donald, Lincoln (New York, Simon and Schuster 1995)
and
George Chauncey, "The Ridicule of Gay and Lesbian Studies Threatens All
Academic Inquiry." Chronicle of Higher Education 44, no. 43:A40 (1998).
I remember that the thing was discussed in New York Times in connection
with a conference on Gay and Lesbian History in New York, October 7-8th
1995. George Chauncey was interviewed and made the point that the question
whether Lincoln was homosexual or heterosexual was not possible to answer.
Chauncey claimed that he was neither, meaning that these concepts were not
invented at that time. The article should be in NYT sometimes during the
first week of October, 1995.
Jens
Jens Rydström tel: +46-8-84 50 60 (h)
Dept of History tel: +46-8-674 71 05 (w)
Stockholm University fax: +46-8-16 75 48 (w)
S-106 91 Stockholm
Sweden
jens.rydstrom@historia.su.se
http://www.historia.su.se/safari/artiklar/rydstrom.htm
___________________________________________________________________From: "Rictor Norton" <norton@rictor.freeserve.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Abraham Lincoln
Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2000 12:16:25 +0100
Although there are "recent" references to the relationship between Abraham
Lincoln and Joshua Fry Speed, I think they derive from the article by
Charley Shively "Big Buck & Big Lick: Lincoln & Whitman" which was published
in his book _Drum Beats: Walt Whitman's Civil War Boy Lovers_ published by
Gay Sunshine Press in 1989. The article may have been published earlier in
another source.
For a period of four years the two men slept together in the same bed, which
Speed offered to share with Lincoln because Lincoln could not afford to live
anywhere else at the time. Their friendship was very close for those four
years. They separated when Speed had to go off to deal with matters arising
from the death of his father; at that time Speed's family seems to have
coerced him into getting married; Lincoln then seems to have had a nervous
breakdown, and he also got married, perhaps in a manner analogous to an "on
the rebound" situation. Lincoln was a big rough uneducated man and Speed was
a small delicate artistocratic type man; the men alluded to the way they
made a "match", which does fit a masculine/feminine bonding pattern that is
not uncommon. Contemporary biographers apparently agree that Speed was
Lincoln's only intimate friend, and that there were problems about lack of
easy intimacy in Lincoln's relations with his wife and women in general.
After marriage, Lincoln as a travelling circuit lawyer frequently slept with
other men, and apparently did not arrange things so he could be home with
his wife as often as other circuit lawyers tried to arrange their circuits.
Lincoln had a coarse sense of humour, which has embarrassed his biographers,
and several commentators have pointed out that much of it centres on the
arsehole and he also frequently joked about the supposed superior endowment
of black men.
Shively covers the topic quite well, but the evidence that the two men had a
genital relationship is hardly conclusive. Nevertheless, I cannot appreciate
how two bachelor companions can sleep together for four years in the same
bed without (even though it was a double bed) sharing some experience of
morning erections, which perhaps led to embraces and "relief". Morning
erections is a biological phenomenon that has been discussed only in recent
times (I think), but presumably it must have been as common then as it is
today. Did they just turn their backs on one another -- for four years?
--
Rictor Norton, London
mailto:norton@rictor.freeserve.co.uk
http://www.infopt.demon.co.uk
___________________________________________________________________
From: "Lesley Hall" <lesleyah@primex.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Physical Impairment as Metaphor?
Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2000 19:15:13 +0100
Two examples of lameness as metaphor for homoerotic desires:
Philip in Maugham's _Of Human Bondage_ has I think a birth-injured leg (? or
infantile paralysis) and the novel is I think usually read as fairly
strongly autobiographical (although the character becomes erotically
enslaved to Mildred, a Cockney waitress - Bette Davis in the film version
In Mary Renault's _The Charioteer_, the central character Laurie Odell is in
a military hospital with a wounded leg during the Second World War; Ralph,
formerly a prefect at his school and the object of his schoolboy emotions,
is invalided from the Navy with missing fingers; a subsidiary character,
Alec, a doctor, mentions a stutter, which psychoanalysis cured although this
did nothing to stop his being 'queer'; a number of other characters are
depicted as defective or damaged in various ways, in many cases plausibly
given that the novel is set during the war.
Lesley Hall
lesleyah@primex.co.uk
website http://homepages.primex.co.uk/~lesleyah
___________________________________________________________________Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2000 12:56:51 -0700 (PDT)
From: Lisa Diguardi <diguardi@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Abraham Lincoln
--- Rictor Norton <norton@rictor.freeserve.co.uk> wrote:
>
> Although there are "recent" references to the relationship
> between Abraham
> Lincoln and Joshua Fry Speed, I think they derive from the
> article by
> Charley Shively "Big Buck & Big Lick: Lincoln & Whitman" which
> was published
> in his book _Drum Beats: Walt Whitman's Civil War Boy Lovers_
> published by
> Gay Sunshine Press in 1989. The article may have been
> published earlier in
> another source.
>
Charley Shively also wrote another article for Gay Sunshine
Press called "George Washington's Gay Mess: Was the 'Father of
Our Country' a Queen?" I don't have a copy of the book, just a
copy I made of the article. But if I remember correctly Rictor,
one of your articles on the history of homophobia was in the
same book.
What made me suspicious of the conclusions about George
Washington is that the author didn't include footnotes or
sources. It was addressed at the end of the article: "most
authors use such paraphernalia to intimidate and belittle the
reader," and then went on to belittle anyone who wanted to see
the sources by saying they should be obvious. (Anyone who did
want a list of sources could get it by mailing $10 directly to
the author.) I don't consider sources to be belittling to the
reader, I consider them an author's way of saying "I have enough
confidence in my conclusions that I don't mind if you check my
sources. I find it difficult to just accept on faith what a
historian says if s/he wants to make it as difficult as possible
for someone check sources.
Other than this article I really don't know much about Charley
Shively, but obviously this one didn't leave me with a high
opinion.
-Lisa Diguardi
___________________________________________________________________From: Swamp1800@aol.com
Date: Sat, 26 Aug 2000 20:24:50 EDT
Subject: Re: Abraham Lincoln
Thanks to the care with which our Founding Fathers saved their papers, and
the devotion with which we Americans collect every shred of rumor and gossip
concering our elected monarch, the president, while British history can
present us with the intimate life of a Lord Byron, American history is rich
in source material about the lives of generals and lawyers. While I have
spent a few years in George Washington's papers, I've not studied Lincoln.
Yet there is easy access to his "intimate letters" to Speed. I found several
in the readily available Library of America two volume edition of his
writings. There is a great deal about Speed's courting and Lincoln's courting
- both courting women. Mary Todd had broken off her engagement with Lincoln
and Lincoln was trying to talk Speed through his engagement with Fanny and
seemed genuinely happy when they married and soon after he and Mary reengaged
and then married. Judging from Lincoln's solicitude for Speed's nerves, Speed
seems more likely the homosexual distressed about sexual matters. Old Abe,
young as he was, comes across like Old Abe. (Perhaps you have to be an
American to get that sentence.) The American school child is taught that
Lincoln was a self taught, wry, genial, witty, concise, GREAT MAN. So
biographers set about righting that and giving us the tortured Abe, hating
blacks all along, seeing his own dead self in the mirror trying to avoid his
nagging wife who was seeing her dead son in her mirror, both friendless. Oh
the misery of the highest office of this happy land. Good for gay historians
to jump at the opportunity bad history offers by making a little bad, but
provocative, history of their own to claim Lincoln. As for morning erections,
aren't they a luxury of the leisure class? I assume Abe and Speed had work to
do.
If Washington had a gay mess, those boys certainly spent a good bit of time
talking and writing among themselves about young ladies. Here again, the boys
around Washington all became lawyers, and generals and diplomats. After
reading 36 volumes of Washington's papers, you can move on and read 24
volumes of Alexander Hamilton's correspondence, and sure enough find a few
pages of queer goings on. Jonathan Katz has done well to bring Hamilton's
correspondence with John Laurens to wider attention. On my web page I have an
essay, based on primary sources, on Washington's relationship with David
Humphreys, who I think comes closest of all the aides of being a closet
homosexual; see http://members.aol.com/Swamp1800/numps.html. All his military
aides (except for Hamilton who was a force unto himself) were accomplished
ass-kissers. The chief was not oblivious to the pleasures of that. But George
Washington was simply head over heels in love with women, and who can blame
him given all the heels he had to deal with as General and President, not the
least of whom were his inordinately ambitious aides.
I've spent the summer trying to get up to speed on the history of sexuality.
In my readings the brutal court records of England have come alive, and I've
been entertained by the proceedings of those great writers who made the mould
that broke the mould. It seems to me that what we are studying is simply
literature. The sexual act is simply too difficult to bag and put out to dry.
So when we try to give Lincoln a morning erection, we don't accomplish much.
The love that Speed and Lincoln may have had for each doesn't come across in
those letters as interesting literature. What's the point in reading more
into them that simply isn't there? Lord Byron's morning erections may be of
some importance, so much of poetry is nothing but a morning erection.
Lincoln's erections are not the stuff of history. He had more important
matters to attend to. Washington's military aides mused about writing an epic
poem about their adventures during the Glorious War. I think a kind of Greek
Brotherhood was in the back of their minds - oh to be young with a band of
brothers fighting a noble cause, and all that - but their damn chief liked
the domestic amenities. He was not a Frederick the Great. General von
Steuben, who knew Frederick and would have loved to emulate him, was too
genial, too much the bonvivant, surrounded himself with young men but grew
fat and did not add a Manual of Manly Love to his highly regarded Manual of
Arms. I think he inadvertently aided and abetted one homosexual tragedy and
you can see my argument at http://members.aol.com/Swamp1800/adams.html and I
continue trying to figure out Pierre L'Enfant, designer of Washington, D.C..
Much of my argument is based not on a love letter but a bitchy diatribe
L'Enfant wrote when he parted ways with the Swedish consul to the US, Richard
Soderstrom. You can see that at http://members.aol.com/Swamp1800/pierre.html
I pursue the subject because the history of early Washington is my thing and
I think L'Enfant's sexuality played a part in the troubled development of the
city, which, of course, is extremely difficult to prove.
Bob Arnebeck
Wellesley Island, NY
___________________________________________________________________Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2000 11:32:32 -0500
From: "Lisa Johnson" <ljohnson@westga.edu>
Subject: intoduction
Hi - I've just joined the list and will introduce myself as the list's
message invites me to do. I am very happy to have discovered this
e-community as I am at the beginning of a career as a literary critic
who focuses on representations of sexuality, and as a feminist theorist
of women's sexuality and alternative heterosexualities. The list's
purpose of alleviating the isolation of scholars on sexuality resonated
strongly with me. I often feel sort of aberrant when I scan my cv and
think about going on the job market this fall. I wonder how much of a
negative effect will come of things like my conference paper titled
"Fucking with _The Scarlet Letter_ in Ntozake Shange's _Lilian:
Resurrection of the Daughter_." I'm looking forward to being part of the
scholarly community here.
Lisa Johnson
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Visiting Assistant Professor
Dept. of English & Philosophy
State University of West Georgia
Carrollton, GA 30118
In a Station at the Metro
The apparition of these faces in the crowd;
Petals on a wet, black bough.
___________________________________________________________________
From: p.lincoln@att.net
Subject: Re: intoduction
Date: Sun, 27 Aug 2000 18:19:28 +0000
I have never responded before, and I'm not quite sure why
I write now; but, fucking is really what Hawthorne writes
about- the liminal wilderness of sexuality in old
"tight-ass" Massachusetts. For a recent interpretation,
see, Demi Does Dimsdale(the most recent "Scarlet," on the
"edge," fucking magic show), or perhaps, an investigation
of Celtic myth and "sex magic." Fucking for freedom and
spirituality is so real, but so pagan, and let's face it,
Hawthorne had his "issues," like the "liminal" experience
with Melville, the liminal homo-social wilderness of
early Protestantism and the war against Nature as a
formidable force. I only offer discourse with the hope
for further thought.
P. Lincoln
___________________________________________________________________From: "Rictor Norton" <norton@rictor.freeserve.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Abraham Lincoln
Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2000 11:58:32 +0100
I quite agree that Shively's rationalization for not having footnotes is
specious, but, whatever reservations you may have about his method and
conclusions, I wouldn't feel dubious specifically because of the lack of
footnotes. Much of the work comes from an oral presentation, which doesn't
lend itself to footnotes, and in any case he does give a brief list of
sources and is careful to cite dates of letters which can easily be checked
in the standard editions, as I don't think he used archival sources. His
article on Washington rambles all over the place; his discussion therein
about Hamilton and Steuben seem to be in accord with independently-reached
conclusions by Jonathan Katz and Bob Arnebeck, but I wouldn't care to defend
the essay as a whole. His essay on Lincoln is much more clearly focused,
though it, also, ultimately fails to convince. His work on Whitman is very
good, and in that instance I have checked some of the sources he used and
can find no instances of misquotation or falsification. I can't judge if he
sometimes commits selective omission, which Arnebeck seems to suggest.
Shively is Professor of American Studies at the University of Massachusetts,
Boston. He has published in the academic press as well as the gay press. The
final version of the Washington essay was published in _Gay Roots, Vol. 2_
(Gay Sunshine Press, 1999) (in which I also published a final version of my
"The Historical Roots of Homophobia". Shively is (or has been) a member of
this list.
--
Rictor Norton, London
mailto:norton@rictor.freeserve.co.uk
http://www.infopt.demon.co.uk
___________________________________________________________________
Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2000 12:57:00 -0700 (PDT)
From: "=?iso-8859-1?q?Michael=20O'Rourke?=" <tranquilised_icon@yahoo.com>
Subject: Thanks
I would like to thank Gregory Downing, Lisa Diguardi,
Jens Rydstrom, Bob Arnebeck and Rictor Norton for
their stimulating and thought-provoking responses to
my query about Abraham Lincoln. I shall now sift the
evidence and make up my own mind.
Michael O'Rourke,
PhD student,
University College Dublin.
___________________________________________________________________Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2000 19:40:03 -0500
From: David Nicholas Harley <David.N.Harley.4@nd.edu>
Subject: Re: NYC Film Screening: Live Nude Girls UNITE!
>A documentary about the historic union drive at San Francisco's Lusty Lady
>Theater; written and directed by Julia Query and Vicky Funari; produced by
>Julia Query and John Montoya; distributed by First Run Features
Does anyone know if this institution is connected to the Seattle Lusty
Lady, famous for its art shows and for employing as a dancer the
photographer Erika Langley?
I just wondered,
David Harley
___________________________________________________________________From: "Rictor Norton" <norton@rictor.freeserve.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Abraham Lincoln
Date: Tue, 29 Aug 2000 10:00:41 +0100
If you use the Google search engine on the words "Abraham Lincoln gay Larry
Kramer" you will be treated to about a hundred webpages about this topic.
Apparently Larry Kramer knows of a recently discovered diary by Speed which
makes their sexual relationship clear (at least from Speed's point of view),
and Kramer was planning to write an article on this late last year (but I
haven't seen a reference to it). It will be in a book he's writing which may
not be published for five years yet. He's quoted from some of the diary
about hugging and kissing and the article from the New York Post is online.
C.A. Tripp (rather more scholarly than Kramer) also claims to have
previously unpublished primary material that proves that Lincoln had a
series of homoerotic relationships, and he is writing a book about it due in
a year or two. Anyway, the batch of web pages shows that a second Civil War
has broken out over this matter! Perhaps it's best to wait and see, rather
than to speculate further!
--
Rictor Norton, London
mailto:norton@rictor.freeserve.co.uk
http://www.infopt.demon.co.uk
___________________________________________________________________Date: Mon, 28 Aug 2000 18:56:53 -0400
Subject: NYC Film Screening: Live Nude Girls UNITE!
From: "Jane H. Rothstein" <jane_rothstein@mindspring.com>
Live Nude Girls Unite!
A documentary about the historic union drive at San Francisco's Lusty Lady
Theater; written and directed by Julia Query and Vicky Funari; produced by
Julia Query and John Montoya; distributed by First Run Features
Benefit Screening for Local 3882-AFT, Clerical Workers at NYU
Friday, Sept. 15, 2000, 6:30 p.m.
Cantor Film Center, New York University
36 E. 8th Street (between University Place and Greene Street)
**Seating on first-come, first-served basis
**Donations suggested
Discussion with Julia Query, Joyce Wallace, Siobhan Brooks and Andrew Ross
Reports from the field by NYU Graduate Student Organizing Committee
(GSOC-UAW), AFT-Local 3882, United Students Against Sweatshops, Pride at
Work, MoMA campaign
Sponsored by the NYU American Studies Program; co-sponsored by NYU Center
for the Study of Gender and Sexuality; NYU Cinema Studies program; NYU
Program in the History of Women and Gender; GSOC-UAW; Pride at Work; The
Womyn's Center at NYU; NYU Center for Media, Culture, and History
For further information: jane_rothstein@mindspring.com
Jane Rothstein,
Ph.D. Candidate
Department of History and
Skirball Department of Hebrew and Judaic Studies
New York University
jr231@is5.nyu.edu
jane_rothstein@mindspring.com
"Racing between mysticism and revolution..."
-- Phil Ochs
___________________________________________________________________
Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2000 21:37:56 -0700 (PDT)
From: Lynn Romer <lynnromer@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: Physical Impairment as Metaphor
I recall reading a fictional book about a shoemaker, or maybe a carpenter, who had a portwine
stain covering his entire face. This blemish was symbolic of pedophilia, which I found
disgusting. I'm sorry I can't recall the title, but I found the book using a key word search of
"birthmark."
Lynn
___________________________________________________________________
Date: Wed, 30 Aug 2000 21:43:13 -0700 (PDT)
From: Lynn Romer <lynnromer@yahoo.com>
Subject: Postscript-- Physical Impairment as Metaphor
I forgot to add that, in the story, the man with the birthmark, after building up the trust of a young
boy who befriended him, tried to seduce the young boy, to the boy's horror. Having a facial
portwine stain myself, albeit a small one, I was totally turned off by the story. However, I think
the point the author was trying to make was that all too often homely people (i.e., the grossly
disfigured) are rejected socially, and the resuls of such looksism can have disastrous
consequences for both the individual and society.
___________________________________________________________________
Date: Thu, 31 Aug 2000 12:11:22 +0100 (BST)
From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Noreen=20Giffney?= <stheno_gorgon@yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: Introduction: Queering the Medieval Apocalypse
Hi,
I am currently finishing off a PhD dissertation in
medieval history at University College Dublin ('"A
Host of Shedders of Christian Blood": Western
Reactions to the Mongol Invasion of Eastern Europe,
1236-56'). After submission, I intend to look for
evidence of queer lives primarily, but not
exclusively, in historical documents relating to the
medieval apocalypse.
I have been unable to find anything written about this
subject. Thus, I would be grateful if people would
e-mail me with any information - names of people whom
I could contact, literary or historical sources,
theses, articles, books, websites ...
I look forward to hearing from someone.
Noreen Giffney
University College Dublin
E-mail: stheno_gorgon@yahoo.co.uk
Back to Archives List