HISTSEX ARCHIVES: October 2000

© Lesley Hall and list contributors

Date: 2 Oct 2000 18:59:46 -0000

From: "Histsex:For historians of sexuality" <histsex-owner@listbot.com>

Subject: [histsex] Welcome to all new members

There seems to have been quite an influx of new members in the last few

weeks (or maybe simply old subscribers resubscribing after the summer

break?). This is my periodic message to invite new subscribers to the list

to introduce themselves and their interests in the history of sexuality,

or indeed, old members to reintroduce themselves &/or talk about their

current interests.

I also remind list members of the History of Sexuality research register:

if you would like to be entered on this,

http://homepages.primex.co.uk/~lesleyah/hofsresr.htm, please contact me at

lesleyah@primex.co.uk with your details - contact e-mail (and snailmail if

you like), affiliation if any, and your research interests, preferably in

terms that other people might search under.

Best to all

Lesley Hall

histsex-owner@listbot.com

lesleyah@primex.co.uk



___________________________________________________________________Date: Mon, 2 Oct 2000 19:15:51 -0400 (EDT)

From: Elise R Chenier <3erc3@qlink.queensu.ca>

Subject: [histsex] Wolfenden Report and Introduction

Greetings,

My name is Elise Chenier, I am a graduate student in the history

department at Queen's University in Kingston, Ontario, Canada. My doctoral

thesis seeks to show how psychiatric ideas became part of our popular

cultural understanding of human sexuality. I locate the popularizarion of

psychiatric and psychoanalytic interpretations in the post-WWII sex crime

panic, and examine the introduction of treatment programs for sex

offenders, track the changing meanings of homosexuality and manage to fit

in some women's history to boot.

I am currently planning a post-doc research trip to London to look at the

period between the Wolfenden Report and the 1967 Sexual Offences Act. I

am hoping that list members might help me identify

currently ongoing (ie not yet published) or published work on the Reports,

and on sex, the law and psychiatry in Britain in the period in general.

Personal queries and data base searches have thus far yeilded Antony

Grey's _Quest for Justice: towards homosexual emancipation_ and Patrick

Higgins' _Heterosexual Dictatorship_. Any help list members can offer would be

greatly appreciated.

Regards, Elise Chenier



___________________________________________________________________

Date: Tue, 3 Oct 2000 09:07:23 -0700 (PDT)

From: JJ Pionke <deepforestowl@yahoo.com>

Subject: [histsex] Introduction



Hello all! I am an undergrad at Truman State

University in Missouri. I am working on a paper for a

grad class I am taking. The paper is called Gays and

Lesbians in World War II. I have had an ongoing

interest in GLBT issues during the WWII period and

have written a paper on Nazi Policy and Gay and

Lesbians. I hope to go on to grad school in english

and do my thesis on lesbian writers from this period.

I am having a lot of fun researching this paper, as

much as I did the last one. I find History of

Sexuality to be fascinating and a lot of fun. My

professor, Steven Reschly, told me that histsex was an

invaluable tool and a lot of fun to boot. So here I

am! JJ Pionke



___________________________________________________________________Date: Tue, 03 Oct 2000 13:03:47 -0400

From: "Roberto C. Ferrari" <rferrari@fau.edu>

Subject: [histsex] Welcome to all new members

Hi, everyone. Per the request, I thought I'd introduce myself to the list.

My sexual history research focuses mostly on gay male studies of the late

Victorian period to early modern period (ca. Bloomsbury) in Britain. Our

early concepts of homosexuality as a lifestyle, rather than physical act,

were first written down and believed by individuals starting sometime

around the 1860s. Even more important, however, is the proliferation of a

gay subculture which flourished in England at this time. Certainly one had

flourished earlier than this, but with the rise of the middle class and

more interaction between classes, homosexuality as a lifestyle started to

bridge the gap between the extreme classes. Consider, for instance, the

stories of the Cleveland Street Affair of 1889, the stories of John Saul

the male prostitute, and of course Oscar Wilde's trials of 1895.

I have focused my research mostly on the work and world of Simeon Solomon

(1840-1905). Solomon was a Jewish artist who early in his career was

influenced by the Pre-Raphaelites, eventually befriending Dante Gabriel

Rossetti, Algernon Charles Swinburne and Edward Burne-Jones (all of whom

had their own interesting sexual predilections). Solomon was arrested in

1873 for public indecency when he was discovered having sexual relations

with another man in a public urinal in London. He was declared an outcast

by his colleagues and attempts by certain individuals to "rescue" him were

unsuccessful. Over the past 25 years, there has been a gradual resurgence

of interest in him and his work. His post-1873 paintings often reflect a

dreamlike quality and reveal the androgynes typical of the Aesthetic and

Symbolist movements, most of which borders on homoeroticism and lesbianism.

I have recently made live on the Internet the Simeon Solomon Research

Archive, which is a repository of bibliographic information written about

him since approximately 1860. Eventually the site will have digital images

and more full-text added to it. If you're interested in looking at it, go

to http://www.fau.edu/solomon/.



==================================================

Roberto C. Ferrari

Head of Access Services

Arts & Humanities Librarian

Wimberly Library

Florida Atlantic University

777 Glades Rd., Boca Raton, FL 33431

PHONE: 561-297-3575

FAX: 561-338-3863

EMAIL: rferrari@fau.edu

WEB: http://www.fau.edu/library/people/rferrari.htm

==================================================



___________________________________________________________________From: JNKATZ1@aol.com

Date: Tue, 3 Oct 2000 15:12:10 EDT

Subject: [histsex] Seeking email of Gillian Rodger



I'm seeking the current email address of Gillian Rodger who was on this list

in March. Thanks



___________________________________________________________________

Date: Thu, 5 Oct 2000 11:20:00 +0100 (BST)

From: M Houlbrook <mhoulb@essex.ac.uk>

Subject: Re: [histsex] Wolfenden Report and Introduction



Dear Elise

There's a lot of work that's either being done or is ongoing in the area

you're talking about. Chris Waters is currently working on a book going

under the name Queer Treatments, focusing on the development of

psychiatric conceptions of the homosexual and therapeutic responses. At

the moment he's focusing upon Edward Glover and the Institute for the

Scientific Treatment of Delinquency between the 1930s and 1960s. Chris has

also published on Peter Wildeblood and Wolfenden, 'Disorders of the Mind,

Disorders of the Body Social: Peter Wildeblood and the Making ofthe Modern

Homosexual', in Waters, Frank Mort and Becky Conekin (eds.), Moments of

Modernity, (Rivers Oram, 1999).

For other discussions of Wolfenden etc see

Frank Mort, 'Mapping Sexual London' (? not entirely sure on the title),

New Formations 37 1999.

Leslie Moran, The Homosexual(ity) of Law.

Jeffrey Weeks, Coming Out: Homosexual POlitics in GB, (first work in the

field 1977).

Stephen Jeffrey-Poulter, Peers, Queers and Commons.

I done a lot of work on Wolfenden myself, particualrly on the remapping

of the queer in the 1950s and 1960s. My thesis has a section on middle

class queer politics in the post war era and a forthcoming piece on

cottaging deals with Wolfenden to a large extent.

At any rate, hope this is of use. I'd be interested in hearing more about

your work. Feel free to email me (mhoulb@hotmail.com) when you're in the

UK. I'm based in Oxford.

Best

Matt Houlbrook

___________________________________________________________________

From: "James Paterson" <jimjamtwo@hotmail.com>

Subject: [histsex] Italy's sexual notoriety in 16th century England

Date: Fri, 06 Oct 2000 01:08:22 GMT

All,

I'm a research student at the University of Sydney in the final phase of

putting together a dissertation on English travellers in Italy between 1540

and 1612. I'd be most interested in hearing from anyone who knows something

about the sexual dimension of Italy's reputation in Tudor and Jacobean

England. I can't say that I've uncovered as many sources shedding light on

the this subject as I had hoped, apart from Roger Ascham's The Scholemaster.

Can I solicit suggestions for primary sources of a non-travel nature (I've

covered these extensively already) that would shed light on the process by

which Italy became associated with sexual immorality? Presumably, Italian

vice was a fundamental aspect of anti-catholic polemic in the period, but I

haven't turned up anything useful as yet. Any suggestions anyone?

James Paterson,

Department of History,

University of Sydney.

___________________________________________________________________Date: Fri, 06 Oct 2000 00:17:11 -0400

From: Ellen Moody <Ellen2@JimandEllen.org>

Subject: [histsex] Italy's sexual notoriety in 16th century England



I hope my reply is not otiose (too obvious). Although it is not

the original source which lies in cultural readings of religious

attitudes (among other real life phenomena), nor is it the

first literary rendering which goes to the large books of

lurid tales so popular in the Renaissance (e.g., Bandello),

but the English drama was certainly the most influential.

The strongest dramas came a bit late for your interests,

but read _The Spanish Tragedy_, Marston, Middleton,

Ford, Webster, Tourneur (to whom _The Avenger's

Tragedy_ used to be attributed).

Cheers to all,

Ellen Moody



___________________________________________________________________From: "Hubert" <hubert.gieschen@users.breworld.net>

Subject: [histsex] Introduction; history of London pubs with striptease; Erotic art on churches

Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2000 09:27:03 +0100



Hi everyone,

1) My name is Hubert Gieschen. I know I should have introduced myself a =

long time ago. I must have been too much in awe of all your academic =

achievements. I hold an MA in the History of Wales from the University =

of Wales, Aberyswyth College. Everyone who wants to know about the topic =

of my non-history of sexuality-related dissertation subject (Welsh =

devolution, especially the Labour Party and the 1979 referendum) is =

welcome to look at my web site www.madasafish.com/~hubertgieschen=20

(any feedback on whether the red dragon on the home page gets displayed =

by your browsers would be most appreciated).

2) My interest in the history of sexuality stems primarily from a desire =

to find out more about my adopted city of residence, London, and its =

social history. No other place seems to have a phenomenom to the extent =

London has: the strip pub as opposed to the upmarket American-style =

table dancing establishments.

3) Pubs with striptease in London appear to have originated in the East =

End, but can now be found everywhere in the capital and the suburbs. Any =

hints on how it oiginated from the music hall tradition is most =

appreciated. Whilst certain London boroughs, especially Hackney in the =

traditional East End seem to be intent on closing down as many venues as =

possible, the further away from the origins the official attituude =

appears more tolerant. I am most interested in changes of public =

attitudes and why. Perhaps it might even lead to a publication.

4) Another topic of interest is erotic art on churches. I know there are =

publications around, however, a recent visit to the tiny hamlet of Abson =

near Bristol in the W of England struck me as very depressing. A desire =

by the church to eradicate memories of paganism must have left local =

inhabitants seemingly completely ignorant as to the treasures displayed =

on their medieval church. How did this happen?

Enough said

Regards to everyone

Hubert

___________________________________________________________________

From: "Deeno" <deenoadkins@yahoo.com>

Subject: [histsex] Treasties on Man, Woman and Sex

Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2000 09:58:41 -0700



We are well accustomed to the ideas of the prudish, sexually repressed

Victorians, who cautiously guarded themselves against any temptation, no

matter how slight. Critics and reader have largely and successfully

questioned this conception and proven it inaccurate. For during this period,

even in seeking any man or woman's ultimate goal in achieving the apparently

conservative happy ending of marriage, Victorians were inevitably led to the

consummation of their love and the creation one's own home and family. Sex

and sexuality, then, were unavoidable issues for the Victorians.

What exactly differentiated men from women and why the species evolved into

the two sexes, then, unsurprisingly confounded Victorian theorists such as

Herbert Spencer and Patrick Geddes. Thus, they and other specialists

constructed a stereotypical dyadic model. Other than the different sex

organs and physical differences, men were considered the active agents, who

expended energy while women were sedentary, storing and conserving energy.

Victorian theories of evolution believed that these feminine and masculine

attributes traced back to the lowest forms of life. A dichotomy of

temperaments defined feminine and masculine: an anabolic nature, which

nurtured versus a katabolic nature, which released energy respectively.

Such beliefs laid the groundwork for, or rather arose from, the separation

of spheres for men and women. According to the model, since men only

concerned themselves with fertilization, they could also spend energies in

other arenas, allowing as Spencer says:

"The male capacity for abstract reason... along with an attachment to the

idea of abstract justice...[which] was a sign of highly-evolved life."

On the other hand, woman's heavy role in pregnancy, menstruation (considered

a time of illness, debilitation, and temporary insanity), and child-rearing

left very little energy left for other pursuits. As a result, women's

position in society came from biological evolution -- she had to stay at

home in order to conserve her energy, while the man could and needed to go

out and hunt or forage.

Moreover, this evolutionary reasoning provided justification for the

emotional and mental differences between men and women. Geddes was led to

believe that:

"Male intelligence was greater than female, men had greater independence and

courage than women, and men were able to expend energy in sustained bursts

of physical or cerebral activity... Women on the other hand... were superior

to men in constancy of affection and sympathetic imagination... [they had]

'greater patience, more open-mindedness, greater appreciation of subtle

details, and consequently what we call more rapid intuition.'"

The roles of men and women understood as thus, the Victorians still had to

deal with the actual sexual act, wherein the bipolar model still held.

Earlier on in the century, women were considered the weaker, more innocent

sex. She had little to no sexual appetite, often capturing all the sympathy

and none of the blame over indiscretions. Men represented the fallen,

sinful, and lustful creatures, wrongfully taking advantage of the fragility

of women. However, this situation switched in the later half of the period;

women had to be held accountable, while the men, slaves to their katabolic

purposes and sexual appetites, could not really be blamed. Therefore, women

were portrayed either frigid or else insatiable. A young lady was only worth

as much as her chastity and appearance of complete innocence, for women were

time bombs just waiting to be set off. Once led astray, she was the fallen

woman, and nothing could reconcile that till she died.

Many artists and writers of the period did not accept such strict roles for

men and women in either their sexualities or their contributions to sexual

intercourse. The dyadic model set up for men and women permeated the age,

but only served to try to encourage an ideal. In real situations and in

fictional agendas, Victorians could recognize the complexities and areas of

gray.

Figures such as the Marquis de Sade and Casanova saturate our literary

history. Sexual innuendos inserted by authors of all sorts of statuses run

rampant throughout novels, pamphlets, discourseseven religious texts. Retif

de-la-Bretone (1776), a contemporary of the Marquis de Sade, and derided as

the "Rousseau of the Gutter", wrote volumes about the "peasant" class and

the subject of "vice", from incest to prostitution.

Michael Mason says in "The Making of Victorian Sexuality" that widespread

sexual repression in the Victorian era is a myth, with between a third and a

half of women pregnant at marriage, middle class couples kissing and

cuddling in public and "unbridled sexual intercourse" in working-class dance

halls. Another study of a Dorset village found eight out of ten births were

illegitimate between 1770 and 1790. There is no evidence that this was

typical of the whole country but does suggest our view of all Victorians as

morally strict is incorrect. Mason also claims the Victorians were fully

aware of female sexuality. Dr William Acton's famous quote that most women

are "not troubled by sexual feeling of any kind" was written to help young

men afraid of impotence. Victorian doctors knew about female orgasm as seen

in their writings and teaching. And so did the people.

Sex can overcome class barriers. It is speculated that Elizabeth I had an

affair with a manshead, or stable master. To give an idea, the diary of a

female member of the notorious French sex club the Aphrodites, lists nearly

5,000 amorous encounters over a period of twenty years. By the breakdown of

profession:

"272 princes and prelates, 929 officers, 93 rabbis, 342 financiers, 439

monks, 420 society men, 288 commoners, 117 valets, 2 uncles, 12 cousins,

119 musicians, 47 Negroes, and 1,614 foreigners (during an enforced absence

to London, probably during the Revolution)"

To have a lover was fashionable; to have them by the droves, without regard

to station or publicity, was scandalous. For the average well to do person,

who craved a little excitement, attending a masque proved admirably

effective. Masquerading in magnificent costumes and dominoes, they were

borne to the party in sedan chairs on the shoulders of servants or

hirelings. After each person preformed his "party piece" and was applauded,

the guests turned to more "unstructured" play.

The behavior was quite opposite to that of the conventional social fair, and

introductions were often discouraged. Whispers, suggestive remarks,

squeezes, kisses, and petting were the norm. There were rooms to retire and

unmask, or to bed a masked stranger. Usually it was only the man to unmask.

A letter from a Mr. Temple to James Boswell summed up the philosophy of the

day:

"A little occasional amorous dalliance, it is to be hoped, all of us may

innocently enough allow ourselves; but then such intercourse ought to be

occasional, when nature will not be defined; and the desire being satisfied,

the object should be thought of no more. Perhaps this reasoning may shock

your delicacy (it once shocked mine), but unhappily in our present

circumstances it is but common sense and common prudence."

Mr. Temple was none other than Reverend William Johnson Temple, noted clergy

and essayist. Prudish? It was an era of discovery at all levels of science,

many just coming into reality. Constitutionalism and capitalism was

developing. It was a time of celebration and enlightenment. Why then would

then not explore and express themselves sexually as well as intellectually.





___________________________________________________________________

From: <lesleyah@primexplus.com>

Subject: Re: [histsex] Treasties on Man, Woman and Sex

Date: Mon, 9 Oct 2000 09:30:39 GMT

Ummm ... if anyone is interested in this subject might

I allude to my own essay, 'The Other in the Mirror:

Sex Victorians and Historians',

http://homepages.primex.co.uk/~lesleyah/sexvict.htm?

Lesley Hall

lesleyah@primex.co.uk

___________________________________________________________________From: "Jenneke Quast" <jqu@iisg.nl>

Date: Mon, 9 Oct 2000 17:34:35 +0200

Subject: [histsex] Introduction of new subscriber

Dear Histsex subscribers,

I am a new subsciber to the list. My name is Jenneke Quast, I work in

the Digital Projects department of the International Institute of

Social History, Amsterdam, The Netherlands. My tasks include the

compilation of ViVa, an online bibliography of women's and gender

history (http://www.iisg.nl/~womhist/vivahome.html), and the

maintenance of the World Wide Web Virtual Library of Women's History

(http://www.iisg.nl/~womhist/vivalink.html). I was one of the

organizers of the recently held workshop on "Free Love and the Labour

Movement", Amsterdam, 6-7 October

(http://www.iisg.nl/~womhist/freelove.html). I have joined the list

because the history of sexuality, naturally, has much ground in

common with women's and gender history.



Jenneke Quast

Internationaal Instituut voor Sociale Geschiedenis

Cruquiusweg 31

NL-1019 AT Amsterdam

jqu@iisg.nl

http://www.iisg.nl/~womhist/

http://www.iisg.nl/occasio/



___________________________________________________________________From: "Dalley-Crozier ,Dr Ivan" <i.dalley-crozier@wellcome.ac.uk>

Subject: [histsex] bibliographical help

Date: Mon, 9 Oct 2000 16:43:15 +0100

Does anyone out there have full bibliographical citations fo rthe following

articles? They might be of use to some of you anyway. This includes first

initials of the authors, as well as page numbers, etc.

Cheerio, Ivan

xxx Sadger, "Zur Aetiology der konträren Sexualempfindung," Medizinische

Klinik, 2 (1909), pp.xxx-xxx

xxx Jekels, "Eininge Bemerken zur trieblehre," Internationale Zeitschrift

für Aerztliche Psychoanalyse, (Sept., 1913), pp.xxx-xxx

xxx Ortvay, in Internationale Zeitschrift für Aerztliche Psychoanalyse,

(Jan., 1914)., pp. xxx-xxx

H. Ellis, A note on hypogfagogic pramnesia' in Mind, ns, 1897, pp. xxx-xxx

============================================

Ivan Dalley Crozier,

i.dalley-crozier@wellcome.ac.uk

"An entertaining essay might perhaps be

written on the sexlessness of historians;

but it would be entertaining and nothing

more: we do not know enough either about

the historians or sex."

--Lytton Strachey, 1931

============================================



___________________________________________________________________Date: Mon, 9 Oct 2000 12:16:49 -0400 (EDT)

From: Leslie Ambedian <ambedian@yorku.ca>

Subject: [histsex] introduction



Greetings, all. I recently joined histsex, and thought I ought to join the

round of introductions. I am a doctoral student in the English programme

at York University in Toronto. My research (which is still in its infancy,

if not pre-natal) is concerned with sadomasochism as a model of power

exchange in Victorian literature, particularly in women's writing.

Although most of my work is fairly removed from the sexual aspects of s&m,

I am also interested in power dynamics as expressed in Victorian

erotica. I've been doing some work recently on the propagation of cultural

stereotypes through historical fiction, particularly with regard to

Victorian sexuality (and of course, discovered this mailing list *after*

that particular paper went in...)

-Leslie

***

Leslie Ambedian "Soylent Green... ...is not people.

ambedian@wiznet.ca Soylent Green is kittens. We apologise

or ambedian@yorku.ca for the error."

http://www.wiznet.ca/~ambedian



___________________________________________________________________Date: Mon, 9 Oct 2000 11:41:23 -0700 (PDT)

From: "=?iso-8859-1?q?Michael=20O'Rourke?=" <tranquilised_icon@yahoo.com>

Subject: [histsex] Addresses query

Dear list,

I wonder if anyone can help me with the following

e-mail addresses which I am seeking:

-Jonathan Dollimore

-Alan Bray

-Jeffrey Weeks

-Randolph Trumbach.

Many thanks in advance,

Michael O'Rourke,

PhD student,

university College Dublin.

___________________________________________________________________Date: Mon, 09 Oct 2000 13:59:01 -0700

From: JILL SHEARER <JAZZ32@GTE.NET>

Subject: Re: [histsex] introduction

So, what have you learned??

Jill :-)

Leslie Ambedian wrote:

> Histsex:For historians of sexuality - http://homepages.primex.co.uk/~lesleyah

>

> Greetings, all. I recently joined histsex, and thought I ought to join the

> round of introductions. I am a doctoral student in the English programme

> at York University in Toronto. My research (which is still in its infancy,

> if not pre-natal) is concerned with sadomasochism as a model of power

> exchange in Victorian literature, particularly in women's writing.

> Although most of my work is fairly removed from the sexual aspects of s&m,

> I am also interested in power dynamics as expressed in Victorian

> erotica. I've been doing some work recently on the propagation of cultural

> stereotypes through historical fiction, particularly with regard to

> Victorian sexuality (and of course, discovered this mailing list *after*

> that particular paper went in...)

>

> -Leslie

>

> ***

> Leslie Ambedian "Soylent Green... ...is not people.

> ambedian@wiznet.ca Soylent Green is kittens. We apologise

> or ambedian@yorku.ca for the error."

> http://www.wiznet.ca/~ambedian

___________________________________________________________________

Date: Mon, 9 Oct 2000 17:44:33 -0500

From: "Lisa Johnson" <ljohnson@westga.edu>

Subject: [histsex] normal



I thought I'd mention how much i'm enjoying a new book of queer theory

that's very accessibly written and redirects the glbt movement in

important ways (argues we should stop trying to be recognized as

"normal" and start questioning the concept of normal as a conservative

policing tool). It's called THE TROUBLE WITH NORMAL, by Michael Warner.

So much queer theory is written in highly technical jargon. I got pretty

skilled at reading that style while in grad school; now that I'm

through, I choose to read/support accessible academic writing on

sexuality and social criticism instead.

Lisa Johnson

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Visiting Assistant Professor

Dept. of English & Philosophy

State University of West Georgia

Carrollton, GA 30118

"And watching Monte ride off through the long grains, I thought about

the way we invent ourselves through our stories, and in a similar way,

how the stories we tell put walls around our lives. And I think that

may be true about cowboys. That there really isn't much truth in my

saying cowboys are my weakness; maybe, after all this time, it's just

something I've learned to say."

*Pamela Houston, "Cowboys Are



___________________________________________________________________Date: Mon, 9 Oct 2000 17:50:09 -0400 (EDT)

From: Leslie Ambedian <ambedian@yorku.ca>

Subject: Re: [histsex] introduction

Ask me in about 3 years -- I still have field exams to get through before

this really gets underway...

Actually, I've learned that you get some really funny looks when you tell

people you're interested in sadomasochism and the Victorians. My favourite

response so far: "Oooh, a rich field to mine!" :)

-Leslie

On Mon, 9 Oct 2000, JILL SHEARER wrote:

> Histsex:For historians of sexuality - http://homepages.primex.co.uk/~lesleyah

>

> So, what have you learned??

> Jill :-)

>

Leslie Ambedian "Soylent Green... ...is not people.

ambedian@wiznet.ca Soylent Green is kittens. We apologise

or ambedian@yorku.ca for the error."

http://www.wiznet.ca/~ambedian



___________________________________________________________________From: "Julie Cox" <jmcjls@earthlink.net>

Subject: [histsex] my introduction

Date: Mon, 9 Oct 2000 15:48:49 -0700

hi all

I'm a second year PhD student in the Literature Dept. of the University of

California at Santa Cruz. The literature I'm most interested is in American

Lit. from 1890-1945. So what's a nice girl like me doing on a list like

this, you ask? My approach is/will be the scientific discourse of sex,

sexuality and gender, and the ways in which these are infused into literary

characters.

Julie M. Cox

jmcjls@earthlink.net



___________________________________________________________________

Date: Mon, 09 Oct 2000 16:20:03 -0700 (MST)

From: Tim Hodgdon <Tim.Hodgdon@asu.edu>

Subject: [histsex] Two web sites of interest

List members:

I've recently found two web sites that may be of interest to historians of

sexuality:

Captive Daughters http://www.captive.org/

"Captive Daughters is a non-profit organization dedicated to ending the

sex trafficking of children, with special emphasis on the girl child."

Commercial Sexual Exploitation Resource Institute

"The Commercial Sexual Exploitation Resource Institute is a non-profit

organization established in 1996 to answer the need for a coordinated

community response to the expanding sex industry in Minnesota. The

Resource Institute maintains a periodical library on the causes and

effects of commercial sexual exploitation; publishes original research;

distributes original prevention and intervention materials; provides

professional training and consulting services; develops organizing

strategies to fight commercial sexual exploitation, advocates for the

civil rights of prostituted individuals and provides direct services to

survivors."

http://www.captive.org/Resources/Otherorganizations/CSERI.htm

Tim Hodgdon

Ph.D. candidate

Department of History

Arizona State University

Tim.Hodgdon@asu.edu



___________________________________________________________________Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 09:04:13 -0400

From: "Roberto C. Ferrari" <rferrari@fau.edu>

Subject: [histsex] Victorian homosexual crimes

I'm wondering if someone can help clarify something for me re: the laws

regulating homosexuality in 19th-century Britain.

In my research on Simeon Solomon and turn-of-the-century homosexuality,

I've read a lot of information discussing the Labouchere Amendment and the

transformation of the subculture. I understand the laws relating to

buggery/sodomy, but what I'm confused about are the laws regulating public

indecency or indecent exposure at the time.

In Wendell Stacy Johnson's "Living in Sin" (1979), he cites (from a

photocopied source, not the original) the transcript of Simeon Solomon's

and George Roberts's conviction in 1873 for homosexual activity in a public

urinal. The charges denote that the two revealed their private parts for

more than 15 minutes and were about to procure the act of sodomy.

(Obviously someone must have been spying on them!) Based on the notion

that they were about to partake in sodomy, it is my understanding that at

that time, they should have received the minimum sentence of about a year

or so and the maximum of 10 years in prison. But Solomon was out in a

couple of weeks.

Any guesses why? I can't help but wonder if it's related to one of two

things: (a) his family's connection; (b) the charges were dropped because

of lack of evidence and/or modified to public indecency. If the charges

were modified, than what was the normal penalty for public

indecency/indecent exposure? Or was it simply that his family/friends

managed to get him off the hook? (George Roberts apparently served more

time than Solomon, by the way.) I have not seen the original court

records, so maybe the answer lies there.

-- Roberto



==================================================

Roberto C. Ferrari

Head of Access Services

Arts & Humanities Librarian

Wimberly Library

Florida Atlantic University

777 Glades Rd., Boca Raton, FL 33431

PHONE: 561-297-3575

FAX: 561-338-3863

EMAIL: rferrari@fau.edu

WEB: http://www.fau.edu/library/people/rferrari.htm

==================================================



___________________________________________________________________

Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 13:22:49 +0100

From: "Peter Bartlett" <Peter.Bartlett@nottingham.ac.uk>

Subject: Re: [histsex] Victorian homosexual crimes

In response to Roberto's question, I do not claim to have particular knowledge of this case, but "being about to" commit sodomy is no more sodomy than "being about to" kill someone is murder: if the act was not done, the full crime is not committed.

One of the legal things that, to my knowledge, no one has done any work on in a sexual context for the nineteenth century are the crimes of attempt to commit a felony (sodomy, in this case), or conspiracy to do so.

In the eighteenth century, attempt sodomy convictions were used routinely for what we would later label indecent acts. The court does not seem overly concerned that there be proof that conduct which would have lead to the full act of sodomy was interrupted with the individuals in flagrante. I suspect, consistent with the nineteenth-century rationalisation of law, that this would have changed by the 1870s, and that evidence would have had to be lead in the circumstances Roberto describes that sodomy would have occurred but for the intervention and arrest of the participants, but I may be wrong about that. In any case, this much better matches the facts as Roberto describes them, and it would be worth checking whether Solomon was charged with either attempt or conspiracy, since that would not carry the full penalty of the sodomy felony.

peter

(Dr.) Peter Bartlett

School of Law

University of Nottingham

Nottingham, NG7 2RD

0115 951-5709

___________________________________________________________________

Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 07:52:40 -0700 (PDT)

From: "A. G. McLaren" <amclaren@UVic.CA>

Subject: Re: [histsex] Victorian homosexual crimes

Roberto's question appears to relate to exhibitionism. In The Trials of

Masculinity (1997), pp.192-195 I noted the way in which English courts

treated such cases in the 19th century.

Angus McLaren

___________________________________________________________________

From: "Lesley Hall" <lesleyah@primex.co.uk>

Subject: Re: [histsex] Victorian homosexual crimes

Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2000 18:21:08 +0100

>One of the legal things that, to my knowledge, no one has done any work on

in a sexual context for the nineteenth century are the crimes of attempt to

commit a felony (sodomy, in this case), or conspiracy to do so.

>

I have a tantalising reference to a thesis in progress as at 1997 or 8 at

the University of Manchester on the policing of homosexuality

pre-Labouchere, a footnote in D Vincent's book on Secrecy (which I don't

have to hand) - by this time the author may have finished and published

something but I haven't come across anything.

Lesley Hall

lesleyah@primex.co.uk

website http://homepages.primex.co.uk/~lesleyah



___________________________________________________________________Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2000 09:59:37 -0400

From: Cristina Nelson <crn@alum.mit.edu>

Subject: [histsex] funny looks and research

>

>Actually, I've learned that you get some really funny looks when you tell

>people you're interested in sadomasochism and the Victorians. My favourite

>response so far: "Oooh, a rich field to mine!" :)

>

>-Leslie

>

I, too, get funny looks and wide smiles when I tell people who ask about my

(U.S. history) dissertation that it is on (U.S.) women's underwear,

1940-70."Is that history?" they ask...and men usually ask if they can be my

research assistants. *My* favorite responses include comments like "I

wonder if you can get financial support from manufacturers" and "Are you

in your cups?" Ain't academia grand?

Cristina Nelson

UNC-Chapel Hill



___________________________________________________________________From: "Hall ,Dr Lesley" <l.hall@wellcome.ac.uk>

Subject: [histsex] Ref for thesis on Victorian sodomy

Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2000 16:44:12 +0100

I mentioned a vague recollection of this in a recent posting. The details

are (from footnote, p 129 of David Vincent, The Culture of Secrecy (1998)

Harry Cocks, 'Abominable Crimes: Sodomy, Law and Society, 1830-1885' ,

forthcoming PhD with Manchester University.

Does anyone know anything more about this &/or Cocks's work (name sounds

familiar?)

Lesley Hall

lesleyah@primex.co.uk



___________________________________________________________________Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2000 15:16:13 -0400

From: "Roberto C. Ferrari" <rferrari@fau.edu>

Subject: Re: [histsex] Ref for thesis on Victorian sodomy



Thanks to everyone for their contributions on this topic, and for this

information on Dr. Cocks's dissertation and the followup with his email

address. I intend to contact him to see if he can provide any more insight

into my original Solomon inquiry.

-- Roberto



==================================================

Roberto C. Ferrari

Head of Access Services

Arts & Humanities Librarian

Wimberly Library

Florida Atlantic University

777 Glades Rd., Boca Raton, FL 33431

PHONE: 561-297-3575

FAX: 561-338-3863

EMAIL: rferrari@fau.edu

WEB: http://www.fau.edu/library/people/rferrari.htm

==================================================

___________________________________________________________________

Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2000 18:35:11 +0100 (BST)

From: M Houlbrook <mhoulb@essex.ac.uk>

Subject: Re: [histsex] Ref for thesis on Victorian sodomy

Dear Lesley

Harry Cocks finished his PhD fairly recently. He's now a post-doc fellow

at Manchester. Email h.cocks@man.ac.uk

Best

Matt Houlbrook

On Wed, 11 Oct 2000, Hall ,Dr Lesley wrote:

> Histsex:For historians of sexuality - http://homepages.primex.co.uk/~lesleyah

>

> I mentioned a vague recollection of this in a recent posting. The details

> are (from footnote, p 129 of David Vincent, The Culture of Secrecy (1998)

> Harry Cocks, 'Abominable Crimes: Sodomy, Law and Society, 1830-1885' ,

> forthcoming PhD with Manchester University.

> Does anyone know anything more about this &/or Cocks's work (name sounds

> familiar?)

> Lesley Hall

> lesleyah@primex.co.uk

___________________________________________________________________

Date: Thu, 12 Oct 2000 17:04:29 +0930

From: Leigh Summers <leigh.summers@adelaide.edu.au>

Subject: Re: [histsex] funny looks and research

Hi Chrisitna, dont worry about the wry remarks. My phd was in corsetry

1850-1900, so I understand the bemusement you inevitably experience when

researching a topic like this. However, I am sure you will find that women in

particular are fascinated by yr material and offer insightful anecdotal

material. Good Luck, remember you are making a serious contribution to women's

history and the history of sexuality, so dont be rattled by negative remarks.

Best Wishes

Leigh summers

Cristina Nelson wrote:

___________________________________________________________________Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2000 14:28:28 -0700 (PDT)

From: <dheath@socrates.Berkeley.EDU>

Subject: Re: [histsex] introduction

Since many other lurkers have been coming forth and introducing

themselves to the list, I thought I'd take a shot at it. I'm currently in

the write-up stage of a dissertation entitled "Creating the Moral Colonial

Subject: Censorship in Australia and India, 1880 to 1939," which examines

the censorship of obscene publications in these two former colonies during

the above period (one chapter also explores Britain's role as moral censor

in the empire). My work is therefore on the peripheries of the history of

sexuality, although one of my chapters explores how censorship in

Australia was quite literally designed to promote the production of

Australian bodies (and hence put a stop to the declining birth rate and

prevent Australia from being overrun by the ever-freared 'Asiatic hordes.'

While I know that I will shortly have some questions that I'd like to pose

to the list, in the mean time if anyone out there is working on anything

remotely similar I'd be glad to hear from you.

Deana Heath

Ph.D. Candidate in History

U.C. Berkeley



___________________________________________________________________From: "N Hiley" <N.P.Hiley@ukc.ac.uk>

Subject: Re: 'Sploshing'?

Date: Fri, 16 Jun 2000 15:57:44 +0100

Well, according to the definition at

<http://www.deviantdesires.com/map/messy.html> it involves getting messy

with food or paint. To quote the expert - "Bill Shipton, publisher of

Splosh! Magazine (the UK's premiere messy fun mag) devides the messy crowd

into three main subgroups: wetlook (water) mudlarking (mud and clay) and

sploshing (food and paint, etc.). As a general rule, messy fans require that

mess be thrown on people wearing clothes, and some folks have a very

particular clothing they want to see doused. One Splosh! reader likes the

rain scenes in Indian films -- wet saris get him going. Interestingly

enough, rain is often a euphemism for sex anyway, sort of like the

waves-crashing-on-beach scene in From Here to Eternity."

Yours in silent amazement,

Nick Hiley.

----- Original Message -----

From: Hall ,Dr Lesley <l.hall@wellcome.ac.uk>

To: <histsex@listbot.com>

Sent: Friday, June 16, 2000 3:20 PM

Subject: 'Sploshing'?



> Histsex:For historians of sexuality -

http://homepages.primex.co.uk/~lesleyah

>

> A colleague of mine who is building up a research collection of

'tart-cards'

> as found in London phone-boxes, has recently come across one advertising

> 'sploshing services'. He and I have various surmises about what this might

> mean, but I thought I would run it past the collective wisdom of Histsex

to

> see if anyone has a more definite definition.

> Thanks

> Lesley

> lesleyah@primex.co.uk

> http://homepages.primex.co.uk/~lesleyah

>

>

> ___________________________________________________________________

___________________________________________________________________Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2000 16:19:55 -0700 (PDT)

From: Haiduk Press <haidukpress@yahoo.com>

Subject: [histsex] Don Leon

I wonder whether anyone is familar with the history of

the poem with the above title. It is apparently by

Byron, but some claim it is a forgery. Why is that? Is

the original on view anywhere?

For those unfamiliar with it, it is an outspoken

defense of male love, making reference to many events

and individuals in Byron's life.

Andrei Foldes

___________________________________________________________________From: "Lesley Hall" <lesleyah@primex.co.uk>

Subject: [histsex] Reviews of interest

Date: Fri, 13 Oct 2000 21:00:48 +0100

Lois Shawver. And the Flag Was Still There: Straight People, Gay People, =

and Sexuality in the U.S. Military. Haworth Gay and Lesbian Series. New =

York: Haworth Press, 1996. xiv + 262 pp. Notes, bibliography, index. =

$39.95 (cloth), ISBN 1-560-24909-9; $19.95 (paper), ISBN 1-560-23851-8. =

Reviewed by Miriam Ben-Shalom, Independent Scholar.

http://www2.h-net.msu.edu/reviews/showrev.cgi?path=3D28826896467875

William H. McMichael. The Mother of All Hooks: The Story of the U.S. =

Navy's Tailhook Scandal. Foreword by Charles C. Moskos. New Brunswick, =

N.J. and London: Transaction Publishers, 1997. xvi + 377 pp. List of =

interviews, notes, and index. $32.95 (cloth), ISBN 1-56000-293-X. =

Reviewed by Francine D'Amico, independent scholar.

http://www2.h-net.msu.edu/reviews/showrev.cgi?path=3D219899242205

Office of the OSD Inspector General. The Tailhook Report: The Official =

Inquiry Into The Events Of Tailhook '91. N.Y.: St. Martin's Press, 1993. =

250 pp. Bibliographical references. $10.95 (paper), ISBN 0-312-10392-8. =

Reviewed by J. Michael Brower, Georgetown University.

http://www2.h-net.msu.edu/reviews/showrev.cgi?path=3D30071869153511



All reviews posted to H-MINERVA, the H-Net discussion network devoted to =

the study of women and war and women in the military, worldwide and in =

all historical areas, which includes a number of other reviews which may =

be of interest to members of histsex -

http://www2.h-net.msu.edu/reviews/showlist.cgi?lists=3DH-Minerva

Lesley Hall

lesleyah@primex.co.uk

website http://homepages.primex.co.uk/~lesleyah





___________________________________________________________________

___________________________________________________________________

From: "Philip Stokes" <philip.stokes@btinternet.com>

Subject: Re: [histsex] Don Leon

Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2000 23:53:57 +0100

My interest in Byron is extensive, but can't be said to amount to expertise.

Thus when I tell you I've not found Don Leon or a reference to him, it's

much more an indication that the poem's spurious than an authoritative

declaration on the subject.

I shall however ask around. Meantime, if you discover anything, I would be

most grateful if you would share it with me.

Regards,

P.

___________________________________________________________________

Date: Sat, 14 Oct 2000 16:39:39 -0700 (PDT)

From: Haiduk Press <haidukpress@yahoo.com>

Subject: Re: [histsex] Don Leon

Hi,

The only thing of note that I think bears mention is

that it is clear to me that the final three couplets

are spurious. If anything they might have been culled

from the text by the author, or written but never

used. Also, looking at it I have found an obvious typo

or two, fault of the original transcriber, no doubt.

That is why I wanted to have a look at the manuscript.

Regards,

Andrei

___________________________________________________________________

Date: Sun, 15 Oct 2000 21:59:34 -0700 (PDT)

From: Angela Diaz <amdiaz86@yahoo.com>

I am a student from Florida International University

and I have to make a research about partial birth

abortion. I will appreciate any information you can

reach about it.

Angela



___________________________________________________________________From: Lesley Hall <lesleyah@primex.co.uk>

Subject: Re: [histsex] partial birth abortion

Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2000 08:53:14 GMT

There was some discussion of this on the list in

mid-April this year. Unfortunately it is not easy to

search the archives for a specific topic, but the

message numbers are in the early 1300s and upward, so

it should be possible to locate them.

> Histsex:For historians of sexuality -

http://homepages.primex.co.uk/~lesleyah

>

> I am a student from Florida International University

> and I have to make a research about partial birth

> abortion. I will appreciate any information you can

> reach about it.

>

> Angela

Lesley Hall

lesleyah@primex.co.uk

web site

http://homepages.primex.co.uk/~lesleyah



___________________________________________________________________Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2000 11:53:05 +0100

From: Diane Mason <d.mason@bathspa.ac.uk>

Subject: Re: [histsex] funny looks and research



Hi Leigh, Christina and everyone else researching the slightly off-beam aspects of

sexuality in Victorian culture. I get both funny looks and laughs when I tell

people my PhD is on the topic of 'Masturbation in Victorian Fiction and Medical

Culture' - the favoured comment of many is 'Oh, it must be a very hands-on project'

- I use it myself now before anybody else gets there! Anyway, all the best with

your research, it sounds fascinating, and never let anybody put you off.

With very best wishes,

Diane

___________________________________________________________________

Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2000 07:47:44 -0700

From: JILL SHEARER <JAZZ32@GTE.NET>

Subject: Re: [histsex] funny looks and research



Can you share a few tidbits from the literature end of your research?

Thanks,

Jill Shearer

Jazz32@gte.net



___________________________________________________________________

Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2000 11:20:25 -0700 (PDT)

From: Angela Diaz <amdiaz86@yahoo.com>



Since what time the medicine is practicing partial

birth abortion in United States?

Angela Diaz



___________________________________________________________________

From: "Dalley-Crozier ,Dr Ivan" <i.dalley-crozier@wellcome.ac.uk>

Subject: [histsex] help? Haire and Ellis

Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 11:57:25 +0100



Dear All,

I am currently going over some notes I made at the Norman Haire papers in

the Fisher Library at Sydney University, and I came across the following

curious note:

***HE==>NH, 11/9/26(Fisher): Ellis is unable to go to the Congress being

planned by Moll in London, at which Haire spoke.***

Now, does anyone out there know what this Congress in LONDON could possibly

be, or, alternatively, have I conflated the 1929 WLSR Congress: although

going by the date, and the organiser, this seems wrong. Perhaps it was not

in London at all?

I know that Ellis did not go to the 1929 conf in London planned by

Hirschfeld... and I know that Haire had weird problems with Moll after a

falling out between the latter and Hirschfeld, and that Haire was adament

about not inviting Moll to the 1929 conf. But what is the deal here?

ANY information on this would be greatfully accepted: I am usually

interested in later Victorian stuff, and this is for my first research into

the 1920s medicalisation of sex and its organisation.

Cheerio, Ivan

============================================

Ivan Dalley Crozier,

i.dalley-crozier@wellcome.ac.uk

"An entertaining essay might perhaps be

written on the sexlessness of historians;

but it would be entertaining and nothing

more: we do not know enough either about

the historians or sex."

--Lytton Strachey, 1931

============================================



___________________________________________________________________From: Dean706@aol.com

Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2000 22:42:49 EDT

Subject: [histsex] We want to buy your literary criticism



Tudor Rose Book Shop is an independent online bookseller, in business for

over three years. We are also an Amazon ZShop, but are in no way part of a

megalomaniacal corporate behemoth. Our behemoth is modest and quite

well-intentioned. We specialize in English and American Literature.

We are writing you because we want to expand our offerings of literary

criticism. Since it is academics and students who make up most of the market

for litcrit, it is to you that we are turning in order to replenish our stock.

If you have used or new volumes of literary criticism you want to sell, then

we want to hear about it. Just drop us a line in response to this email with

some idea of what you have, and whether it is hardcover or paperback, used or

new. We'll get back in touch with you.

Dean Niles

Tudor Rose Book Shop

www.abebooks.com/home/tudor_rose



___________________________________________________________________From: Lesley Hall <lesleyah@primex.co.uk>

Subject: Re: [histsex] Partial birth abortion

Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 09:06:47 GMT

A very quick and superficial web search indicates that

this term came into use approximately 1995 in the USA

to describe the pre-existing operation of dilatation

and extraction used in late abortions. The search also

indicates that the meaning of this term is somewhat

'fuzzy' and it is not (at least in origin) a term the

medical profession used to describe the operation.



Lesley Hall

lesleyah@primex.co.uk

web site

http://homepages.primex.co.uk/~lesleyah



___________________________________________________________________From: p.lincoln@att.net

Subject: Re: [histsex] your mail

Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 02:41:44 +0000

Hi Angela: My area of "expertise" is associated with

gender issues and sexuality as it exists in literature,

past and present. The Hist.sx forum provides references,

texts... that are of value to me ; but, I'm not at all

knowledgeable enough to help with this type of survey.

Consider a women's studies list? Or perhaps the

psychology of partial birth abortion?

Sorry

P.A.L.

> Histsex:For historians of sexuality - http://homepages.primex.co.uk/~lesleyah

>

> I am a student from Florida International University

> and I have to make a research about partial birth

> abortion. I will appreciate any information you can

> reach about it.

>

> Angela

___________________________________________________________________Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 19:39:05 -0700 (MST)

From: Tim Hodgdon <Tim.Hodgdon@asu.edu>

Subject: [histsex] X-Post H-Asia:The Women's International War Crimes Tribunal on Japan's

Military (fwd)

My apologies for any duplication of coverage.

Tim Hodgdon

Ph.D. candidate

Department of History

Arizona State University

Tim.Hodgdon@asu.edu

---------- Forwarded message ----------

Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 21:01:21 -0500

From: Paula C. Barnes <drbarnes@bellsouth.net>

Reply-To: H-NET List for Women's History <H-WOMEN@H-NET.MSU.EDU>

To: H-WOMEN@H-NET.MSU.EDU

Subject: X-Post H-Asia:The Women's International War Crimes Tribunal on

Japan's Military

Norman G. Owen "If you want to make God laugh, tell her your plans."

ngowen@hku.hk Anne Lamott, _Bird by Bird_



---------- Forwarded message ----------

Date: Mon, 16 Oct 2000 23:08:22 -0400

From: Steven Leibo <leibo@nycap.rr.com>

Reply-To: H-Net list for Asian History and Culture <H-ASIA@H-NET.MSU.EDU>

To: H-ASIA@H-NET.MSU.EDU

Subject: H-ASIA: The Women's International War Crimes Tribunal on Japan's

Military

H-ASIA

**********************************************

Colleagues: I am sending the following post out again because I have reason

to believe that it got garbled when I sent it out a few days ago.

Leibo

**********************************************************

From: mark selden <ms44@cornell.edu>

Subject: confusion?

The Women's International War Crimes Tribunal on Japan's Military

Sexual Slavery 2000 will convene in Tokyo on December 7-12.

This is a long post, appropriate, I believe, to the importance of the

issues.

The conference is the culmination of more than a decade of efforts by

the Asian victims of Japan's wartime sexual slavery system (the

"Comfort Women") with the support of Asian feminists and human rights

activists to tell their story and seek justice, and by international

movements centered on the United Nations Human Rights Commission to

recognize their grievances. It represents an extraordinary effort by

Asian women's movements to overcome barriers of language, the Cold

War legacy, and "national interest" to pose issues not only of

Japan's military sexual slavery but of contemporary military violence

against women internationally.

The Japanese government, after decades of denying responsibility for

the treatment of the comfort women, was forced by public testimony of

the comfort women to obliquely recognize its responsibility through

supporting the establishment of a 'private' fund to compensate

comfort women victims, while publicly evading its responsibilities

for apology and restitution. At present nine cases filed by former

comfort women pending in Japanese courts.

I am forwarding information about the conference from the organizers,

including a briefing on the issues and information about registration

and international support. Further information about participation

and donations to support the event is available from:

vaww-net-japan@jca.apc.org

mark selden

Binghamton and Cornell Universities

ms44@cornell.edu

A PRIMER ON THE WOMEN's INTERNATIONAL WAR CRIMES TRIBUNAL

and Public Hearing on Current War Crimes

Tokyo, Japan

December 8 - 12, 2000

The Women's International War Crimes Tribunal on Japan's Military

Sexual Slavery

The WOMEN'S INTERNATIONAL WAR-CRIMES TRIBUNAL ON JAPAN'S

MILITARY SEXUAL SLAVERY (or the Tokyo Tribunal) is a people's

tribunal organized by Asian women and human rights organizations and

supported by the international NGOs, to hear the cases of sexual

slavery and other crimes involving sexual violence committed against

the women by Japan. Historically, hundreds of thousands of young

women in the Asia Pacific region were raped or either deceived or

abducted to become comfort women for the Japanese Imperial Army

during the Second World War. The women were held prisoners for

periods ranging from one week to more than four years.

After the Second World War, sexual violence committed by the

Japanese Imperial Army was hardly prosecuted by the International

Military Tribunal for the Far East (The Far East Tribunal) as set-up

by the Allied Forces. An exception was the Batavia (Indonesia) Trial

where the case of 35 Dutch women who had been victimized in

Indonesia, brought their case against 12 Japanese Army officers at

the Batavia court. Charges were made on the grounds of having

committed war crimes and in defiance of the laws and customs of war,

in the Dutch East Indies in 1944. One of the accused was condemned

to death and others were sentenced to imprisonment ranging from two

to 15 years. That was the only trial in history that gave justice to

the comfort women. Today most of the comfort women are still denied

such justice.

At present, the Japanese government continues to deny any

legal responsibility for the war crimes and crimes against humanity

committed against the women during the Second World War. Currently

there are 8 court cases filed by comfort women of various countries

such as South Korea, China, North Korea, Taiwan and the Philippines

at the Tokyo and other District Courts, including the High Court, yet

a number of this cases have been denied by the District Court,

especially the case of the Filipino and Dutch comfort women.

The Women's International War Crimes Tribunal will take place

in Tokyo, Japan on December 8-12, 2000. The venue of the Tribunal

will be at the: Kudan Kaikan, 1-6-5 Kudan-minami, Chiyoda-ku, Tokyo,

Japan 102-0074, Telephone No. 03-3261-5521.



The participating victimized countries:

There were many countries victimized by the war of aggression and

colonization waged by Japan in the Asia Pacific region during the

1930s to the 1940s. They crossed the continent from the Pacific to

East and Southeast Asia. Today the victimized countries participating

in the Tokyo Tribunal includes South & North Korea, China, Taiwan,

Philippines, Indonesia, Malaysia, Guam, Burma, among others.

Historical records showed that Japanese Imperial Army systematically

set up comfort stations and facilities for sexual slavery, in all the

occupied and colonized countries, coerced and abducted women to

become sex slaves for the purpose of providing sexual gratification

to the officers and soldiers of the Imperial Army.

It was in 1991 when Kim Hak Soon, the first Korean comfort woman

came out to tell her story publicly. Soon after, former comfort women

from other countries - North Korea, Philippines, Indonesia, Taiwan,

China, Malaysia, and the Dutch women who were held captive in

Indonesia - broke their fifty years of silence to tell their stories.

Today around 600 former comfort women from the victimized countries

have come out to tell their stories.

And a new page of history has been written.

Women's organizations, non-government organizations and civil society

took on the advocacy to demand justice for the former comfort women

and seek legal recognition of rape and sexual slavery as war crime,

crimes against humanity and genocide. The government of Taiwan, South

Korea, North Korea, the Philippines and China had on separate

occasions demanded from the Japan government to answer for their

wartime responsibility. Because of the comfort women's actions,

having brought their cases to court, they had challenged state

accountability to the war crimes perpetrated against them. And they

have inspired numerous other women victims of current war crimes in

different parts of the world.

No other movement has ever brought to the attention of the

international community the magnitude of gross human rights

violations perpetrated against the women fifty years ago, such as

that of the comfort women of Asia.

No other human rights movement has demanded an end to the cycle of

impunity of wartime sexual violence against women, such as that of

the comfort women.

No other human rights movement has brought together peoples from

different ideological, political, and social movements to unite on

common grounds - such as the impact of these movements to unite and

reconcile South and North Korea.

No other movement has demanded accountability from a perpetrator

country for the grave breaches of human rights violations done to

women that happened fifty years ago such as that of the comfort women.

No other movement has decided to look at the war crimes and crimes

against humanity violations under international law and humanitarian

law on the issue of sexual slavery, sexual violence such as that of

the comfort women.



The Organizers of the Tribunal

The victimized countries are represented by the following organizations:

. North Korea Committee on Measures for Compensation to the Former

Comfort Women for Japanese Army and Pacific War Victims (COCOPA)

. South Korea Korean Council for the Women Drafted for Military

Sexual Slavery by Japan

. China Shanghai Research Center on Comfort Woman

. Taiwan Taipei Women's Rescue Foundation

. Philippines Asian Centre for Women's Human Rights (ASCENT)

. Indonesia Indonesian Women's Coalition

. Malaysia. Support Network for Malaysian Comfort Women

. Netherlands Support Network for Dutch Comfort Women

. Burma Support Network for Burmese Comfort Women

Supporting the initiatives of the victimized countries from Japan is

the Violence Against Women in War-Network Japan. (VAWW-NET Japan)

These organizations comprise the members of the International

Organizing Committee (IOC) and the Convenors are:

. Ms. Yun Chung Ok of the Korean Council,

. Ms. Yayori Matsui of VAWW-NET Japan

. Ms. Indai Sajor of ASCENT

An International Advisory Committee has also been set up to provide

support and advise to the organizers. These are composed of

internationally known human rights advocates, feminists, in the area

of peace and development. These are:

. Edna Aquino, Amnesty International

. Ariane Brunet, International Center for Human Rights and Democratic

Development

. Charlotte Bunch, Center for Women's Global Leadership

. Florence Butegwa, Associates for Change

. Eugenia Piza Lopez, International Alert

. Alda Facio, ILANUD

. Marieme Helie Lucas, Women Living Under Muslim Laws

. Lepa Mladjenovic, Autonomous Women's Center Against Sexual Violence

. Vahida Nainar, Women's Caucus for Gender Justice

. Julie Shaw, Urgent Action Fund

. Vivian Stromberg, MADRE

. Felicity Hill, Women's International League for Peace and Freedom

. Regan Ralph, Human Rights Watch

The objectives of the Tokyo Tribunal

1. To receive from each country evidence highlighting the grave

nature of the crimes committed against the comfort women and to

clarify the consequent responsibility of the Japanese Government and

its military;

2. To have a clear analysis of the gendered nature of the crimes and

to established a gender-sensitive approach to the issues of war

crimes, crimes against humanity and genocide;

3. To involve the international community in shedding light about the

nature of the crimes committed against the comfort women of Asia and

to identify steps to be taken by the Japanese Government;

4. To create an international movement supporting women's issues on

violence against women under war and armed conflict situations; and

5. To end impunity of wartime sexual violence against women and to

prevent such crimes from happening in the future.

Background and Preparation for the Tokyo Tribunal

As the millennium comes to an end, it is but proper to give

the women survivors who are all in their advanced age a sense of what

constitutes justice. Discussion of organizing the International

Women's War Crimes Tribunal started in April 1998, when members of

the VAWW-NET International (Violence against Women in War Network)

met in Geneva to attend the session of the UN Commission on Human

Rights. Since then several meetings were held to flesh out the idea

of holding the Tokyo Tribunal among the victimized. The VAWW-NET

Japan, the Korean Council and ASCENT-Philippines were identified as

convenors of the Tribunal, with all the other participating countries

to form the International Organizing Committee (IOC). An

International Advisory Committee (IAC) was likewise created composed

of internationally known women's human rights activists, lawyers, and

feminists to provide support and advise to the IOC.

In these meetings, it was agreed that the main theme of the Tribunal

is to define the individual criminal responsibility and

accountability of the Japanese government under international law and

humanitarian law for its war crimes and crimes against humanity.

Succeeding meetings have been held whenever there is a possibility

for the members of the Organizing Committee to be together in other

international conferences or gatherings to discuss about the charter,

the rules and procedures of evidences, the country research and

prosecution teams, the judges, chief prosecutors and experts to be

invited.

The first prosecutors meeting was held in Manila last July 29-31,

2000 attended by 40 participants from the victimized countries and

Japan including observers. The IOC members met together with the

country prosecutors and chief prosecutors for the first time to

discuss the legal framework for the indictment and to approve the

Charter. Long discussions on the elements of war crimes, framework

of the indictments, rules of procedures and evidence and structure of

the country indictments were thoroughly discussed.

Another meeting was held in September 15-18, 2000 in Taipei. The

participating countries presented their indictments and finalized all

the necessary requirements for the holding of the Tribunal.

Meanwhile, teams of prosecutors from the victimized countries and

Japan composed of respected lawyers and academicians are working on

the indictment, doing research, gathering evidences, studying the

charter, and meeting the former comfort women.

Is redress possible in the Tokyo Tribunal?

The organizers are convinced that redress, for women

victimized in time of wars and conflict situations, from the past to

the present, is possible in the light of the principles of

international law, humanitarian law, human conscience, humanity and

gender justice.

The Tribunal has no real power to enforce its

judgement, but as a people's and women's initiative, it nonetheless

carries the moral authority to demand their wide acceptance and

enforcement of the judgement by the international community and civil

society and pave the way for law reforms in national governments.

The people involved in the Tokyo Tribunal

Other than the convenors and members of the International

Organizing Committee, there is a global campaign among women and men

to support and endorse the Tokyo Tribunal. Local, national, regional

and international campaigns are being initiated not only by the

victimized countries but by human rights and peace institutions,

networks working for humanitarian assistance and women's

organizations.

Partial listings of Tribunal Members:

The Judges:

Gabrielle Kirk McDonald, USA (former President of the Yugoslavia War

Crimes Tribunal)

Pierre Sane,Senegal ( Secretary General of Amnesty international)

Vitit Muntarbhorn, Thailand (former UN Rapporteur on the sale of the

children, child prostitution, and child pornography)

Carmen Maria Argibay, Argentina (President of the International

Women's Association of Judges)

Christine Chinkin, United Kingdom (Expert on Gender and International Law)

(Other eminent persons are still being contacted)

The Legal Advisers:

Rhonda Copellon, (Professor of Law, City University of New York)

Theo Van Boven, (Professor of law, Maastricht University, the Netherlands)

Kelly Dawn Askin, (Professor of law, Washington University)

The Chief Prosecutors:

Patricia Viseur-Sellers, Legal Adviser for Gender-Related Crimes in

the Office of the Prosecutor for the International Criminal Tribunal

for the former Yugoslavia, and until recently the Rwanda Tribunal;

Ustinia Dolgopol - Professor of Law, Flinders University, Australia

Hina Jilani - Lawyer for the Supreme Court of Pakistan

The Experts:

Herbert P. Bix -Emperor Hirohito

Theo Van Boven -right to reparation

Gay McDougall - racism and gender

Yoshiaki Yoshimi - Japanese Imperial Army

Fritz Kalshoven - state responsibility

(others are still being contacted)

The Country Prosecutors:

For North Korea

Hwang Ho Nam, Secretary General, COCOPA

Jong Nam Yong, lawyer, Executive Member, COCOPA

For China

Mr. Zhou Hong-jun, Law Professor & Deputy Chief of the International

Economic Law Institute of East China University of Politics and Law

Mr. Su Zhi Liang, History Department, Shanghai Teachers University

For South Korea

Dr. Kim, Myung-gi, Chief Prosecutor, Myunggi University, Professor,

International Law)

Dr. Cho Si Hyun, Prosecutor, Professor of Law, Sungsin University

Law School, International Law

Dr. Kim Chang Rok, Prosecutor,, Pusan University of Law, History of Japan

Law

Mr. Chang Wan-Ick, Prosecutor, Lawyer, ANSAN

Mr. Park Won-soon, Prosecutor, Lawyer, General Secretary, Peoples

Solidarity for Participatory Democracy

Ms. Kang Jeong-sook, Prosecutor, Research staff, Korean Institute of

Jungshindae, Women history)

Dr. Ha Jong-moon, Prosecutor, Professor of Hanshin University

Dr. Yang Hyun-ah, Lecturer at Seoul University

For Taiwan

Mr. Liao Ying-Chih, lawyer, International Law

Ms. Lu Chia Hsiang, Taipei Women's Rescue Foundation

Mr. Chuang Kuo-Ming (Henry), lawyer, international law

For Philippines

Dr. Merlin Magallona, Professor of Law, College of Law, University of

the Philippines

Atty. Sedfrey Candelaria, Asst. Dean, Ateneo University College of Law

Dr. Purificacion Quisumbing, Chairperson Philippine Judicial

Academy, Supreme Court of the Philippines

Prof. Ricardo Jose, Professor of History, University of the Philippines,

Atty. Evalyn Ursua, Professor of Law, University of the Philippines

Ms. Aurora Javate de Dios, Dean, Miriam College

For Indonesia

Nursyahbhani Katjasungkana, lawyer and Secretary General of

Indonesian Women Coalition for Justice and Democracy

Antarini Ama , lawyer of the Indonesian Women's Coalition for Justice

and Democracy

Asnifriyanti Damanik - Legal Aid Indonesia Women Association for Justice

Paulus R. Mahulette - Lawyer, LBH Jakarta (Jakarta Legal

Aid Institute)

For Japan

Atty. Kazuko Kawaguchi, Chief Lawyer, VAWW-NET Japan

Atty. Yuichi Yokota, Lawyer, VAWW-Net Japan

Atty. Yasushi Higashizawa, Lawyer, VAWW-Net Japan

Professor Koki Abe

Professor Shin Hae Bong

For the Netherlands

Atty. Henry Grant, (Professor of Law & former Prosecutor ICTY)

The Public Hearing on Current War Crimes

A one-day public hearing is being organized to hear the

testimonies of the victims from on-going war and conflict around the

world, to demonstrate that the crimes against the former 'comfort

women' is still happening to women today. The public hearing will

be comprised of testimonies of victims and survivors of wars and

conflicts in different regions of the globe such as Guatemala,

Colombia, Chiapas, Liberia, Sierra Leone, Congo, Nigeria, Rwanda,

Somalia, Sudan, Kosovo, Bangladesh, Kashmir, Cambodia, Vietnam,

Burma, East Timor, Afghanistan, Algeria and Puerto Rico.

The hearing will not only present testimonies of women who

had been victimized by war but also provide a forum simultaneously to

talk about the initiatives of women and men in other countries to

rise and demand justice and peace in their communities. The public

hearing will usher the continuing work of women and men for justice,

peace and end to impunity.

The series of consultative meetings among the women's and human

rights groups, peace networks and law reform advocates. The four

themes that were eventually identified at this meetings represent the

source or the root cause of wars/conflicts and human rights

violations.

The themes identified are:

. Conflicts/violations resulting from extremism. Many countries are

in situations of war, conflict and unrest as a result of rise of the

power and stronghold of states, groups and organizations that profess

extreme ideologies based on nationalism, ethnicity, religion, race,

marginalization, majoritarianism, which take violent forms and

terrorizes the communities.

. Conflicts/violations resulting from militarism: Aggression,

invasion, state repression, military or other kinds of occupation and

foreign policy of powerful countries are the source of conflicts in

many countries around the world today. In the process, fundamental

rights of peoples, particularly women are violated.

. Resource-based conflicts/violations: Access and dispute over

resources have been the root cause of wars and conflicts. Disputes

over land, natural resources, borders, territories, water, natural

resources have intensified in many countries and their communities.

. Violations during post-conflict and the lasting impacts in the

event of non-resolution of conflicts on peace and reconstruction:

Women are often ignored or marginalized during the peace process and

in the subsequent efforts of reconstruction and rehabilitation. Many

forms of violence against women take place as accountability often

are not ensured during this phase.

The public hearing will be held on December 11, after the

third day of the Tokyo Tribunal proceedings and followed the next

day by the Tokyo Tribunal judgement. The Women's Caucus for Gender

Justice for the ICC in New York is the Secretariat for the public

hearing.

Women's Caucus for Gender Justice, PO Box 3541 Grand Central Post

Office, New York,

NY 10163,USA Tel.1-212-697-7741 & Fax. 1-212-949-7996 Email

<iccwomen@igc.org>



Groups supporting the Tribunal

Various organizations and individuals have already endorsed and

expressed their support for the Tribunal. UN Special Rapporteurs

will be invited to attend the proceedings. In particular, UN SR

Rhadhika Coomarswamy will specifically attend the Public Hearing on

Current war Crimes to hear the cases of women for her next report at

the UN Commission on Human Rights in March 2001. Following are the

initial list of these organizations:

NGO Coalition to the International Criminal Court (CICC); Amnesty

International (AI); CIDA-SEAGEP; Shaler Adams Foundation;

Akina-Mama-Wa Africa; Asian and Pacific Development Center (APDC);

International Women's Human Rights Law Clinic (CUNY- NY); ISIS-WICCE;

ISIS-Manila; International Center for Human Rights and Democratic

Development (ICHRDD); Women Living Under Muslim Laws (WLUML); Women's

International League for Peace and Freedom (WILPF); Equality Now;

International Alert; Human Rights Watch; Urgent Action Fund; MADRE;

Autonomous Women's Center Against Sexual Violence; Coalition Against

Trafficking in Women (CATW); Asia Pacific Forum on Women Law and

Development (APWLD); Global Alliance Against Trafficking in Women

(GAATW); Australian National Committee of Refugee Women; INFORM, Sri

Lanka; AGHS Legal Aid Cell, Pakistan; Asian and Pacific Development

Center (APDC); Revolutionary Association of the Women of

Afghanistan; Women's Caucus for Gender Justice - ICC and more.

The Convenors of the Tribunal

. Yayori Matsui

VAWW-NET Japan

2-10-10 Shiomi, Koto-ku, 135-8685, Japan

Tel/Fax: (813) 5337-4088

Email: vawwjs@jca.apc.org

URL: http://www.jca.apc.org/vaww-net-japan

. Yun Chung Ok

The Korean Council for the Women Drafted for

Military Sexual Slavery by Japan

3F, CISUD Bldg., #35 Chungieongro 2 Ga

Seodaemun Gu, Seoul, Korea

Tel: (822) 365-4016 & Fax: (822) 365-4017

. Indai Sajor

Asian Centre for Women's Human Rights (ASCENT)

Suite 306 MJB Bldg., 220 Tomas Morato Ave.,

Quezon City, Philippines

Tel: (632) 926-4386 or 410-1512

Fax: (632) 928-4973

Email: ascent@csi.com.ph

URL:http://www.vawwnet.org

The Conference Program and Expressions of Support

The "Comfort women" who were the victims of sexual violence by the

Japanese Imperial Army before and during World War II, broke their

silence in the early 1990's and have demanded redress and justice.

The Japanese government continues to deny legal responsibility and

undermine the dignity of the women.

Therefore, women's groups and individuals across the Asia Pacific

region have come together to organize a Women's Tribunal in order to

respond to the cries of aging survivors. From the women's

perspective, justice and dignity will never be realized until

perpetrators of the crimes are prosecuted and there is a full

acceptance of responsibility by the Japanese government. The

tribunal is one way of ensuring a 21st century free of violence

against women.

The judges and prosecutors for the Tribunal are leading experts in

the field of human rights and international law.

On the fourth day of the proceedings there will be an International

Public Hearing on Violence Against Women which will focus on current

armed conflicts. Participants in this Public Hearing include women

fromÅ@Afghanistan, East Timor, Cambodia, the former Yugoslavia,

Algeria, Congo, Rwanda, Guatemala, and other areas.

Schedule

Date & Time Events

Dec. 7 (Thu) Opening Ceremony; 18:30-20:30

Dec. 8 (Fri) Day 1 of the Tribunal; 9:30-17:00

Opening remarks, Reading indictment by Prosecutors, Defense Counsel,

Japan's responsibility, Countries' presentation by South & North Korea

18:30-20:30 Welcome receptions

Dec. 9 (Sat) Day 2 of the Tribunal; 9:30-17:00

Country's presentation by Taiwan, China, Philippines, and Malaysia,

and Experts' testimonies

18:30-20:30 Video showing

Dec. 10 (Sun) Day 3 of the Tribunal; 9:30-17:00

Countries' presentation by Indonesia, East Timor, Netherlands, and,

Japan, Experts' testimonies, Perpetrators' testimonies, Defense

Counsel, and Closing comments

18:30-20:30 Cultural Night

Dec. 11 (Mon) International Public Hearing on Current Armed

Conflicts and Women

9:00-18:00 Testimonies by women from 12 areas of current and

post conflicts

Dec. 12 (Tue) Day 4 of the Tribunal; 9:30-17:00

Judgments and comments by all judges, press conference, and demonstration

Countries' presentation includes (1) prosecutor's indictment, (2)

survivors' testimonies, and (3) explanation of evidence.

Participants at the Tribunal and the Public Hearing

Survivors from victimized areas; Judges; Chief prosecutors & Country

prosecutors; Expert witnesses on trauma, reparations, and

discrimination based on gender and race; Legal advisors; Respected

members of the International Community; and Media

Venue

Kudan Kaikan

1-6-5 Kudanminami, Chiyoda-ku, Tokyo 1020074 Japan

Phone 03 3261 5521

Access

>From Narita (Tokyo) International Airport

1. Take a limousine bus from Narita airport to Tokyo City Air Terminal

(TCAT).

2. Take a subway (HANZOMON line) and get off at KUDAN-SHITA station.

3. Exit from the EXIT #4 at the station and it takes about 1-minute

walk from the station.

Accommodation

We have a list of hotels near the venue. If you need a list, please

check the box on the registration form.

Registration procedures: contact the organizers

Those who want to apply from 6 victim countries are requested to

contact the following organizations of each country.

Country Group/Representative Address Tel/Fax/Email

South Korea The Korean Council for the Women Drafted for Military

Sexual Slavery by Japan

Ms. Yun Chung-Ok 3/F, CISJD Bldg., #35

Chungieongro 2 Ga

Seodaemun Gu, Seoul, Korea Tel +82-2-365-4016

Fax +82-2-365-4017

Email: jdh@peacenet.or.kr

North Korea Committee on Measures for Compensation to the Former

"Comfort Women for Japanese Army" and Pacific War Victims

Mr. Hwang Ho Nam Ryonhwa-1, Central District, Pyongyang, DPR

of Korea Tel +850-2-18222 EXT: 8048

Fax +850-2-3814644

China Shanghai Teachers University Department of Sociology & History

Prof. Su Zhi Liang 100 Guilin Road,

Dept. of History, STU

Shanghai 200234, China Tel: 64322819

Fax: 64361873

Email: Su@guomai.sh.cn

Taiwan, R.O.C. Taipei Women's Rescue Foundation

Mr. Henry K.M. Chuang 7F-1, No. 321, Sec 1,

Fuh Sing S. Rd.,

Taipei, Taiwan, R.O.C. Tel: 02-2700-9595

Fax: 02-2704-4854

Email: twr95@ms4.hinet.net

Philippines Asian Centre for Women's Human Rights (ASCENT)

Ms. Indai L. Sajor Suite 306, MJB Bldg.,

220 Tomas Morato Ave.,

Quezon City, Philippines Tel: +63-2-926-4386

FAX +63-2-928-4973

Email: ascent@csi.com.ph

Indonesia Nursyahbani Katjasungkana Jl. Raya Tengah nomor 16,

Kramatjati, Jakarta 13540,

Indonesia Tel/Fax +62-21-87797289

Email: apiknet@centrin.net.id

Donations

Those unable to attend but who would like to support the Tribunal can

make a donation to VAWW-NET Japan.

If you have questions, please feel free to ask VAWW-NET Japan.

VAWW-NET Japan

2-10-10 Shiomi, Koto-ku, Tokyo 135-8585, Japan

Phone/FAX +81-3-5337-4088, E-mail: vaww-net-japan@jca.apc.org

URL: http://www.jca.apc.org/~vawwjs

===========================================

___________________________________________________________________From: ralfdose@t-online.de (Ralf Dose)

To: "Histsex:For historians of sexuality" <histsex@listbot.com>

Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 01:12:59 +0100

Dear Ivan,

there is simple answer to your question: The congress Ellis could

not attend in 1926 was held in Berlin, not in London, and was

organized by Moll. There is a 5-volume congress report in German,

Marcuse, Max (Hrsg.): Verhandlungen des 1. Internationalen

Kongresses für Sexualforschung. Berlin, vom 10.-16. Oktober

1926. 5 Bde. Berlin/Köln (A. Marcus & E. Weber's Verlag) 1928.

1. Experimentalforschung und Biologie

2. Phsysiologie Pahtologie und Therapie

3. Psychologie, Pädagogik, Ethik, Ästhetik, Religion

4. Demographie und Statistik, Sozial- und Rassenhygiene

5. Straf- und Zivilrecht, Strafprozeß und Strafvollzug, Soziologie,

Ethnologie und Folklore

There were extended quarrels about this congress in the

sexologist's community of the 1920's: Moll excluded Hirschfeld

from this congress, and you will find a heated debate about this in

German sexological journals and in Berlin the newspapers of 1926.

Hirschfeld, though not a participant of the congress himself, invited

the congress members to visit his Institute while in Berlin, and

many of them did, to the dismay of Moll. Dora Russell gives a short

account of this event in her memories "The Tamarisk Tree."

There was a second international congress organized by Moll and

his crowd in 1930, which took place in London, and was clearly

planned to disturb Hirschfeld's WLSR circles. E.g. when Haire tried

to get Wiesner, of Edinburgh, as a supporter for the London WLSR

congress, he had to find out that Moll already had engaged

Wiesner for his plans. And from the Haire letters to Dora Russell I

know that he was alarmed about rumors spread in England

(allegedly by Moll) that the 1929 WLSR congress would be a

meeting of homosexuals.

Of course, you won't find a word about theses quarrels in the

English congress report:

Greenwood, A.W. (ed.): Proceedings of the Second International

Congress for Sex Research, London 1930. Edinburgh, London

(Oliver and Boyd) 1931.

The fight between Moll and Hirschfeld is a long and sad story. It

started during the Eulenburg affair (if not earlier) and did not end

before Hirschfeld died.

Let me know if you need more details.

Ralf



Ralf Dose M.A.

Magnus-Hirschfeld-Gesellschaft e.V.

Forschungsstelle zur Geschichte der Sexualwissenschaft

Chodowieckistr. 41, D-10405 Berlin

http://www.in-berlin.de/user/hirschfeld

ralfdose@magnus.in-berlin.de office e-mail

x49-30-441 39 73 office phone/fax

ralfdose@t-online.de home e-mail

x49-30-215 94 74 home phone

___________________________________________________________________From: "docx2" <docx2@ix.netcom.com>

Subject: Re: [histsex] help? Haire and Ellis

Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 19:55:29 -0700



----- Original Message -----

From: Ralf Dose <ralfdose@t-online.de>

To: Histsex:For historians of sexuality <histsex@listbot.com>

Sent: Tuesday, October 17, 2000 5:12 PM

Subject: [histsex] help? Haire and Ellis



The fight between Moll and Hirschfeld is a long and sad story. It

started during the Eulenburg affair (if not earlier) and did not end

before Hirschfeld died.

Let me know if you need more details.

Ralf

Dear Ralf,

I would like more details. I do not speak (or read) German, so this

whole era is rather confusing for me.

Take care,

Charles Moser

P.S. Does anyone have a reference for the story that Leopold von

Sacher-Masoch wrote Krafft-Ebing an angry letter for naming a psychiatric

entity for him (actually his maternal grand-father who was a public health

physician in Vienna)?

___________________________________________________________________

From: "Jencks" <jencks4@home.com>

Subject: [histsex] New Member

Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 16:26:18 -0600



Hello. My name is Jeff-todd Jencks. I am primarily interested in

discussions about sexual ethics, the psychology of sex and the psychological

history of sex. I am also interested in what I call Near Sex. Near Sex

means anything that can be debated as to whether it is sex or not. For

example, nudity is a Near Sex topic because nudists claim that they can

enjoy nudity that is not sexual while certain religions claim that nudity is

inherently sexual. Whenever some people call it sex while others say it's

not sex than it's a Near Sex topic. Other Near Sex topics include

affection, sex therapy, and certain clothing styles.

I think the main reason that I'm interested in Near Sex is because I grew up

with intense feelings of body shame. My feelings were so severe that I

always wore long sleeve shirts and long pants no matter how hot it was and I

even contemplated wearing gloves and a hood so that no flesh could be

visible. I felt ashamed everytime I went to the bathroom or took a shower

because the body was sinful.

Since then, I have relaxed a lot and I'm not plagued by feelings of shame.

But I still have a desire to understand how I or anyone else could have

developed such intense feelings of body shame in the first place and how a

healthier set of sexual ethics might be taught so that future generations

aren't inflicted with the same body shame I had to overcome.

My email address is jencks4@home.com

My homepage is http://bejjinks.tripod.com

I love discussion. Thank you.



___________________________________________________________________

From: "Hubert" <hubert.gieschen@users.breworld.net>

Subject: Re: [histsex] New Member

Date: Wed, 18 Oct 2000 23:50:29 +0100



Thank God for that message. I amost felt like I was the only one on the =

list not writing for a phd and who joined up for more pragmatic reasons =

(see my intro)

Hubert

----- Original Message -----=20

From: Jencks=20

To: histsex@listbot.com=20

Sent: Wednesday, October 18, 2000 11:26 PM

Subject: [histsex] New Member



___________________________________________________________________

Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 06:09:58 -0700 (PDT)

From: Jennifer Ball <jenniferlball@excite.com>

Subject: Re: [histsex] New Member



This an introduction and a comment on the last email I received.

My name is Jennier L Ball and I am working on my PhD at Purdue University,

West Lafayette, IN. My diss covers contraception in the 1940s and 1950s in

Connecticut.

While I write for the pragmatic reason of fulfilling PhD requirments, my

research is a labor of love. I'm personally fascinated and invested in the

fragmentation of identity through sexuality. I believe most scholars find

their work personally and professionally engaging. That is why it is

refreshing to have a committed, engaged, respectful and informed group with

whom to discuss these issues.

In short, you are among colleagues whether you're writing a diss or not.

Jen

jlball@expert.cc.purdue.edu

On Wed, 18 Oct 2000 23:50:29 +0100, Histsex:For historians of sexuality

wrote:

Histsex:For historians of sexuality -

http://homepages.primex.co.uk/~lesleyah

Thank God for that message. I amost felt like I was the only one on the

list not writing for a phd and who joined up for more pragmatic reasons (see

my intro)

Hubert

----- Original Message -----

From: Jencks

To: histsex@listbot.com

Sent: Wednesday, October 18, 2000 11:26 PM

Subject: [histsex] New Member

___________________________________________________________________

From: "Jencks" <jencks4@home.com>

Subject: Re: [histsex] New Member

Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 07:09:41 -0600



I don't know how to find the intro referred to here. It's probably in =

the archives and I=20

don't know how to find the archives yet.









___________________________________________________________________From: "Lesley Hall" <lesleyah@primex.co.uk>

Subject: Re: [histsex] New Member

Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 18:58:54 +0100



The archives can be accessed via the list homepage, which gets put at =

the top of all messages so I won't repeat it here, however, as I have =

had occasion to remark before, they are not threaded but simply in =

reverse chronological order, with the most recent at the top, and also =

don't indicate writer of messages.

Does anyone know of any other free e-list services which don't involve a =

lot of advertising being tagged on to messages and other disadvantages? =

but do allow threading of archives and other desirables?

Thanks

Lesley Hall

lesleyah@primex.co.uk

website http://homepages.primex.co.uk/~lesleyah

___________________________________________________________________

From: "Lesley Hall" <lesleyah@primex.co.uk>

Subject: [histsex] List homepage/archives

Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 19:50:10 +0100



Ooops - I've just noticed that this link only went to the homepage for =

my site - I've just amended it so that it should go to the Histsex =

homepage.

Sorry

Lesley Hall

lesleyah@primex.co.uk

website http://homepages.primex.co.uk/~lesleyah

___________________________________________________________________

From: JNKATZ1@aol.com

Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 14:51:58 EDT

Subject: [histsex] What is "Sex"?



Since the Bill and Monica Scandal of 1999 the new member should include in

"Near Sex" oral-genital contacts, the subject of a public, historic, and

hilarious national debate about what constitutes sex.



___________________________________________________________________From: "Lesley Hall" <lesleyah@primex.co.uk>

Subject: [histsex] Review of interest

Date: Tue, 17 Oct 2000 20:22:57 +0100

Will Roscoe. Changing Ones: Third and Fourth Genders In Native America. =

New York: St. Martin's Press, 1998. viii + 320 pp. Illustrations, =

tables, glossary, tribal index of alternative gender roles and =

sexuality, notes, bibliography of native gay and lesbianliterature, =

bibliography, index . $16.95 (paper), ISBN 0-312-22479-6. Reviewed by =

Donna M. Dean, Ph. D., Independent Scholar.

http://www2.h-net.msu.edu/reviews/showrev.cgi?path=3D14884971731727

Lesley Hall

lesleyah@primex.co.uk

website http://homepages.primex.co.uk/~lesleyah



___________________________________________________________________

From: "Hubert" <hubert.gieschen@users.breworld.net>

Subject: Re: [histsex] New Member

Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 23:31:22 +0100

Just in case, I hope nobody felt offended by my remarks. But prior to =

joining I had assumed that a very broad scientific interest would be =

served. I will probably be proved right.

To avoid long searches and briefly, I have an MA (in Welsh History!) and =

my interest in the history of sex comes from an interest in the (almost =

London, England specific) phenomina of pubs (not clubs) where striptease =

is performed and its social history. I am still a subscriber to a =

discussion group on this particualar issue at london_strip@egroups.com =

(in response to Lesley you probably will find that there are far too =

many adverts on egroups.com. Otherwise egroups lets you do whatever you =

want), but there is no real interest in the scientific aspect of the =

matter.

As it happened only tonight I was present when a film crew for Britain's =

Channel Four TV was filming on location.

To finish it off, I also have an amateur interest in erotic art on =

medieval churches.

Hubert

___________________________________________________________________From: "Dalley-Crozier ,Dr Ivan" <i.dalley-crozier@wellcome.ac.uk>

Subject: RE: [histsex] What is "Sex"?

Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2000 09:45:28 +0100

Dear Mr Jencks,

I am all for the most extreme forms of social constructivism, especially of

humans and human relations. But I am stuck: can you give me an example of

penis/vagina contact which is not sexual for at least one of the parties, or

intended to be, at some level? I would of course like to exclude sexual

violence, although it may to fall under sexual for at least one party.

Cheerio, Ivan

============================================

Ivan Dalley Crozier,

i.dalley-crozier@wellcome.ac.uk

"An entertaining essay might perhaps be

written on the sexlessness of historians;

but it would be entertaining and nothing

more: we do not know enough either about

the historians or sex."

--Lytton Strachey, 1931

============================================



-----Original Message-----

From: Jencks [mailto:jencks4@home.com]

Sent: 20 October 2000 05:42

To: Histsex:For historians of sexuality

Subject: Re: [histsex] What is "Sex"?



Histsex:For historians of sexuality -

http://homepages.primex.co.uk/~lesleyah/listinf.htm

Yes, oral genital contact would fall under the heading Near Sex. The truth

is, technically everything falls under the heading of Near Sex because there

are always some people who are going to call everything sexual and some

people who would deny penis vagina contact as sexual. So before we get off

into extremes, the point of the question is to narrow the gray area, to

define sex well enough that we eventually eliminate all subjects from

falling under the heading Near Sex.

___________________________________________________________________From: "Jencks" <jencks4@home.com>

Subject: Re: [histsex] What is "Sex"?

Date: Thu, 19 Oct 2000 22:41:50 -0600



Yes, oral genital contact would fall under the heading Near Sex. The truth

is, technically everything falls under the heading of Near Sex because there

are always some people who are going to call everything sexual and some

people who would deny penis vagina contact as sexual. So before we get off

into extremes, the point of the question is to narrow the gray area, to

define sex well enough that we eventually eliminate all subjects from

falling under the heading Near Sex.



___________________________________________________________________Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2000 07:36:13 -0500

From: Dar Weyenberg <dweyenbe@students.wisc.edu>

Subject: RE: [histsex] What is "Sex"?

Hello jencks and all

I think one of the things that the national "debates" relating to what

counts as sex (as subsequently what does not) was how conceptually the

concept discursively scaffolded with different layers of meaning that

function to differienate, divide and normalize. It seems to me that that

through the practice of "narrowing the grey area",-which has the effect of

loading up on tje what "is" sex pole-which also has the effect of saying

what "ought" to be. This linking of the "is" and the "ought" is problematic.

dar



___________________________________________________________________From: "Lesley Hall" <lesleyah@primex.co.uk>

Subject: [histsex] Fw: call for papers

Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2000 20:45:29 +0100

Some of you may already have seen this!

From: Journal of the History of Sexuality <jhs@sfsu.edu>

Date: 20 October 2000 20:23

Subject: call for papers





JHS: Call for Papers

(pls. forward)

Since the end of World War II, human sexuality has become a major =

consideration in political life throughout the globe. Communities and =

states on virtually every continent have struggled to control =

reproduction, redefine marriage, address sexual rights, and revise the =

boundaries of legitimate sexual expression and behavior. Contraception, =

abortion, consensual sex, homosexuality, divorce, pornography, =

prostitution, and sexually transmitted diseases are the most prominent =

among the myriad issues that have challenged legislators and political =

processes and transformed more than a few political careers.

The Journal of the History of Sexuality invites scholars interested in =

these or related subjects to submit articles for a special issue on =

"Sexuality and Politics since 1945." The editors welcome historical =

studies that address one or more of these issues in a single region as =

well as studies that are comparative.

The deadline for submission of completed articles is October 15, 2001. =

Earlier submissions are encouraged. Address completed manuscripts to: =

Barbara Loomis, History Department, San Francisco State University, San =

Francisco, CA 94132.





Lesley Hall

lesleyah@primex.co.uk

website http://homepages.primex.co.uk/~lesleyah



___________________________________________________________________

From: "Lesley Hall" <lesleyah@primex.co.uk>

Subject: [histsex] Conference Announcement and CFP

Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2000 21:06:33 +0100

The Fourth European Social Science History Conference will take place in =

The Hague, The Netherlands, 27 Feb-2 Mar 2002

The Conference website is at http://www.iisg.nl/esshc with further =

details, on-line pre-registration form, etc.

The conference is organised in thematic strands, one of which is =

Sexuality.

As co-chair of the Sexuality strand, I am looking for either complete =

panels (2-3 speakers, commentator, and chair), or individual papers.

At the previous conference, last April in Amsterdam, we had a very good =

and lively set of panels in spite of the unsympathetic building and the =

defects in location, shape and size of the room to which our sessions =

had been allocated.

Historians of sexuality are also like to find other sessions of interest =

in other strands.

Lesley Hall

lesleyah@primex.co.uk

website http://homepages.primex.co.uk/~lesleyah





___________________________________________________________________From: "Jencks" <jencks4@home.com>

Subject: Re: [histsex] What is "Sex"? :answer to Ivan

Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2000 16:38:08 -0600

What I was referring to was that some people would lie and attempt to

convince that penis vagina contact is not sex. For example, a man may have

an affair and attempt to say that is wasn't an affair because they only had

intercourse.



___________________________________________________________________From: "Dalley-Crozier ,Dr Ivan" <i.dalley-crozier@wellcome.ac.uk>

Subject: RE: [histsex] What is "Sex"? :answer to Ivan

Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 17:30:15 +0100

Dear Jencks,

Isn't this confusing categories? If one is having an affair it does not

necesarily involve sex, but it is still an affair. And one can also have

sex with someone with whom one is not having an affair (just a casual night,

never to be seen again, for example). But I really cannot conceive of your

original proposition: that penile/vaginal contact can be considered

non-sexual.

As for lying: to whom are they lying? Their partner, themselves, each

other, the world? And what about other's interpretations: I cannot think of

many Freudians, for instance, buying the line that penile/vaginal contact is

not sexual. So, again, it is a problem of categories.

Cheerio, ijdc

============================================

Ivan Dalley Crozier,

i.dalley-crozier@wellcome.ac.uk

"An entertaining essay might perhaps be

written on the sexlessness of historians;

but it would be entertaining and nothing

more: we do not know enough either about

the historians or sex."

--Lytton Strachey, 1931

============================================



___________________________________________________________________From: "Lesley Hall" <lesleyah@primex.co.uk>

Subject: Re: [histsex] What is "Sex"? :answer to Ivan

Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 19:53:29 +0100



). But I really cannot conceive of your

>original proposition: that penile/vaginal contact can be considered

>non-sexual.

I'd concur with Ivan's arguments on this - isn't a common rationale for such

divagations from a central relationship the plea that it was 'ONLY sex'

(i.e. detached from anything else like emotions or meaningful relationship)

rather than 'NOT sex'?

Lesley Hall

lesleyah@primex.co.uk

website http://homepages.primex.co.uk/~lesleyah



___________________________________________________________________

From: "Julie Cox" <jmcjls@earthlink.net>

Subject: [histsex] sexology bibliographies?/sex in ancient Egypt

Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 12:26:13 -0700



Hi all

I've been diligently searching through the histsex archives--by no means

done--so it's possible the answers to my questions remain hidden for the

moment.

1. Can someone point me to Sexology Bibliographies? I'm interested most in

writings in English translation but I'm also looking for writings in French

and German.

2. As a side project I'm trying to determine the history of the dildo in

Ancient Egypt (as in did they really know of it). One version of the

Isis-Osiris myth definitely seems to suggest knowledge of a prosthetic

phallus. Citations very welcome.

3. Would Charcot be considered a sexologist? Which might be a more

general, "who would be considered a sexologist?"

Julie M. Cox

PhD student, Literature

UC Santa Cruz

jmcjls@earthlink.net



___________________________________________________________________From: "Lesley Hall" <lesleyah@primex.co.uk>

Subject: [histsex] Oscar Wilde Conference

Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 20:46:05 +0100

This may already have been mentioned on the list, but I came across this =

information today:

The Importance of Being Misunderstood: Homage to Oscar Wilde - An

international conference on Oscar Wilde.

Bologna and Parma, Italy, 8th-11th November 2000

http://www.lingue.unibo.it/avvenimenti/internat.htm

Lesley Hall

lesleyah@primex.co.uk

website http://homepages.primex.co.uk/~lesleyah

___________________________________________________________________

From: "Greg Reeder" <reeder@sirius.com>

Subject: Re: [histsex] sex in ancient Egypt

Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 18:12:00 -0700



Dear Julie,

I have seen dildo like phalli made of stone and ivory in the Egyptian Museum

Cairo, but do not recall

any published material on them. For a good book on sexualities in Late Egypt

see:

Sex and Society in Graeco-Roman Egypt (Kegan Paul )by Dominic Montserrat.

You might be interested in my just published paper on the Tomb of the

Manicurists,

"Same-sex desire, conjugal constructs, and the tomb of Niankhkhnum and

Khnumhotep"

see:

World Archaeology (Routledge)

Volume 32 Number 2

Issue Oct 2000

193-208

http://www.catchword.co.uk/titles/routledg/00438243/v32n2/contp1-1.htm

Greg Reeder

reeder@sirius.com

http://www.egyptology.com/niankhkhnum_khnumhotep/

___________________________________________________________________From: "Dalley-Crozier ,Dr Ivan" <i.dalley-crozier@wellcome.ac.uk>

Subject: RE: [histsex] sexology bibliographies?/sex in ancient Egypt

Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2000 12:16:54 +0100



Dear Julie Cox,

A good place to start for sexology sources is Lucy Bland and Laura Doan,

eds, Sexology Uncensored, Chicago, 1998. If you want more, then Frank

Sulloway, Freud, Biologist of the Mind, Harvard, 1979 also has an excellent

bibliography f the original sources. And then of course, there are a lot of

sources in these sources, etc.

As for: 3. Would Charcot be considered a sexologist? Which might be a more

general, "who would be considered a sexologist?"

No Charcot would not, he was a neurologist who used hypnotism. He did write

a paper with Valentin Magnan on homosexuality which is interesting, however.

Sexologists of use to you might be Albert Moll or Havelock Ellis. It

depends what time frame, though, as Kinsey, for example, is a sexologist in

a very different field to Ellis. But if you are interested in J-M. Charcot,

then you probably do not have Kinsey in mind. Let me know if you want to

discuss this further.

Cheerio, Ivan

============================================

Ivan Dalley Crozier,

i.dalley-crozier@wellcome.ac.uk

"An entertaining essay might perhaps be

written on the sexlessness of historians;

but it would be entertaining and nothing

more: we do not know enough either about

the historians or sex."

--Lytton Strachey, 1931

============================================

___________________________________________________________________From: "Jencks" <jencks4@home.com>

Subject: Re: [histsex] What is "Sex"?

Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 16:28:19 -0600



Can we get off of the penile vaginal sex subject. I never intended to say

anything about affairs or the likes but people kept asking me questions and

the conversation kept getting further and further off of my original point.

I will explain my original point in another e-mail titled Near Sex defined.

___________________________________________________________________

From: <lesleyah@primex.co.uk>

Subject: Re: [histsex] What is "Sex"?

Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2000 12:29:18 GMT



> Can we get off of the penile vaginal sex subject.

..

> the conversation kept getting further and further

off of my original point.

Unfortunately there is not much one can do about this

- it is not possible to force people to respond as one

might wish (e.g., personal whinge here, I never got

any responses _at all_ to my query some while ago

about voyeurism in historical context!). Indeed, some

of the most rewarding discussions on this list have

occurred quite tangentially to the original initiating

post. People will naturally respond to the particular

aspects which interest them.

Lesley Hall

lesleyah@primex.co.uk

___________________________________________________________________

Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2000 08:41:55 -0400

From: Cristina Nelson <crn@alum.mit.edu>

Subject: [histsex] "whinge"



For those of us not familiar with technical terms, what is a "whinge"? It

sounds a bit like a frisbee.

Cristina Nelson

PhD Candidate

UNC CHapel Hill



___________________________________________________________________From: <lesleyah@primex.co.uk>

Subject: Re: [histsex] "whinge"

Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2000 13:19:54 GMT

> For those of us not familiar with technical terms,

what is a "whinge"? It

> sounds a bit like a frisbee.

>

Whinge - Australian, also UK, English usage v & n -

whine, moan, complain (allegedly a characteristic of

Poms, i.e. Brits)

Not some less-known sexual perversion or erotic

appliance, sorry. Except insofar as some people gain

some sort of gratification by whingeing on and on...

(well, this can be satisfying)

Lesley Hall

lesleyah@primex.co.uk

___________________________________________________________________

From: Kazetnik@aol.com

Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2000 09:21:39 EDT

Subject: Re: [histsex] "whinge"



A whinge is a British frisbee with a spiky edge :-^)

Lesley, what was the original enquiry about voyeurism in an historical

context? Sounds right up my street.... Or park.

Oh, and I have returned! Don't all groan at once.

Chris White

___________________________________________________________________From: "Jencks" <jencks4@home.com>

Subject: [histsex] Near Sex defined

Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 16:48:01 -0600



The following examples are topics that fall under the category Near Sex.

Affection: Laws have been passed against teachers hugging kids in school.

These laws are attempts to prevent child sexual abuse but they go to such an

extreme that they outlaw all affection. The law is essentially calling hugs

sex.

Sex Education: Society norms make it difficult to talk about sex with

people. Sometimes when you try to talk to people about sex, you are seen as

a pervert. There is almost an unwritten societal rule that says if a person

talks about sex, than he/she must be out of control about sex.

Nudity: I have modeled for art classes and I have been to nudist colonies.

According to my father and several other people I know, anyone who is naked

in public is a pervert. Even though these same people find no problem in

looking at naked women in playboy, they condemn the models as hedonists and

in the same breath condemn all public nudity including public locker rooms.

To a large degree, I'm asking what makes the difference. A hug can be

sexual but isn't always. Sex talk can be sexual but isn't always. Nudity

can be sexual but isn't always. What criteria or test can be used to tell

when a hug, sex talk or nudity are sexual and when they are not.



___________________________________________________________________From: "Dalley-Crozier ,Dr Ivan" <i.dalley-crozier@wellcome.ac.uk>

Subject: [histsex] Near Sex experiences....

Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2000 14:37:13 +0100

Dear Mr Jencks,

I see your point: the overarching problem here is contextual. One cannot

talk about discourses of sexuality (or anything else) in absolute terms.

Your examples: moral/legal/social/pedagogical: are all restricted by their

institutional and social contexts. So, as long as these contexts are

defined in order to establish the parameters of your definition, then

whatever definition of licit sex/non-sex/near sex/illicit sex, etc will at

least be defined and then open to commentary. That is, what ever knowledge

claims you are making about sexuality can be discussed.

The beautiful thing about knowledge is that it is never the property of the

person who made the claim, but of the community who accept it.... rejected

knowledge claims are not knowledge.

This is why your final comment on criteria for testing is particualrly

difficult for me to accept. How does one make a claim for a prior knowledge

based on a test: one cannot... Data are always under-determined, so tests

therefore are as well, although the extent to which this is the case depends

on the social and intellectual climate.

ijdc

___________________________________________________________________From: <lesleyah@primex.co.uk>

Subject: Re: [histsex] "whinge" about voyeurism

Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2000 14:22:27 GMT

Chris White (good to see you back!)

asked

> Lesley, what was the original enquiry about

voyeurism in an historical

> context? Sounds right up my street.... Or park.

>

The original query was

'Does anyone on the list have any idea when the above

appeared as a definite sexual perversion? (i.e. that

people were noticed spying on others in sexual or

quasi sexual situations, or that there were provisions

for paying customers to do this in brothels). I would

surmise, but may be wrong, that it would either only

exist (as something which some individuals would

specifically seek out) or at least only become

noticeable, in a society in which privacy had become

more emphasised and sexual scenes would be less likely

to be casually encountered. But I'm open to being

persuaded otherwise.'

I'd still be interested to hear any thoughts about

this, although the immediate necessity (being asked to

be 'an expert' on the subject for a proposed

television programme) has passed.

Lesley Hall

lesleyah@primex.co.uk



___________________________________________________________________

Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2000 13:40:07 -0500

From: David Stewart <stewartd@email.uah.edu>

Subject: Re: [histsex] Near Sex defined

There is an excellent book by Morse Peckham that takes up this topic, if

indirectly. It is _Art and Pornography: An Experiment in Explanation_

(Harper & Row, 1971) [also Basic Books, 1969].

I'm certain to oversimplify Peckham, but it might be fair to say that

RESPONSE is his key, and not the act or the category.

We are more than capable of responding sexually to nearly anything, or to

nearly any juxaposition of things. A shoe can work as well as a photograph

of a nude back, front, etc.

Can an adult hugging a child respond sexually? (I didn't say "should" that

they do commonly.) Can a child interpret a hug as sexual child abuse? What

if the child had been sexually abused on the day of the hug? Would my father

respond sexually at a nudist colony?

I think it is fair to say that Peckham sees the response as the key to what

is real. If someone has responded sexually, then it is fair to say that they

found an ocassion for a sexual response. It fits the category "sexual." Once

we admit this it is easy to see that there are no, or very few, limiting

categories.

The fact that some see rape as not sexual is worth considering in this light.

Sorry for butchering Peckham for those who know his work.

Best wishes,

David Stewart

stewartd@email.uah.edu

___________________________________________________________________

Subject: Re: [histsex] "whinge" about voyeurism

Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 16:48:27 -0500

From: "Michael J. Murphy" <mjmurphy@artsci.wustl.edu>

Lesley,

I think it's really important to distinguish between the look/regard and

the Gaze; one is about directional positioning of the head and eyes to

take in a sight/prospect; the other exists outside of the subject as a

structure of looking encoding power relations which is often collapsed

with masculinist looking but is not natural to men. (I actually see the

Gaze as a technology which produces the male and the male body, but

that's another story).

I find Kaja Silverman's work on this to be most helpful. See her essays

in Male Subjectivity at the Margins (Routledge) (especially on

Fassbinder's cinema) and her essay "Fragments of a Fashionable Discourse"

in Tania Modleski, ed., Studies in Entertainment: Critical Approaches to

Mass Culture (Bloomington, IN: U. Indiana, 1986). Silverman gestures

towards the historicization of the Gaze; not so much the moment of its

historical emergence as the moment of its naturalization to men and male

looking. Very thoughtful.

Mike Murphy

___________________________________________________________________

From: "Colin Shingleton" <cshingleton@bigpond.com>

Subject: Re: [histsex] Near Sex defined

Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 10:35:58 +1000



> My name is Colin Shingleton I have been auditing the exchange for a while

> and have a long question in my drafts file waiting to be sent... but two

> things on the current exchange. A dear deceased friend with an appetite

for

> men claimed that one should deny sexual contact even if caught in any

> connection with anyone...but that while true, and said with the greatest

> respect for a dear fun loving lady, is meant to be amusing. The other

thing.

> I am an older [my first degree was done in the 60s] Monash University

> Melbourne PhD student in philosophy. David Stewart is right according to

> Wittgenstein. It would seem that any contextualisation of any circumstance

> can be sexual or anything else for that matter i.e. moral, psychological,

> jurisprudential if we choose to so place it. The problem is in identifying

> sexual encounters which are or should be illegal. This is particularly a

> problem in light of the paucity of material about on the proximity of sex

to

> violence.

> I enjoy your site and have some serious questions myself to put on this

> matter.

> Colin Shingleton



___________________________________________________________________

From: MillerJimE@aol.com

Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2000 22:59:27 EDT

Subject: Re: [histsex] "whinge" about voyeurism



lesleyah@primex.co.uk writes:

<< The original query was

'Does anyone on the list have any idea when the above

appeared as a definite sexual perversion? (i.e. that

people were noticed spying on others in sexual or

quasi sexual situations, or that there were provisions

for paying customers to do this in brothels). >>

Does it need to be defined as a "perversion"? I find that category

to be difficult to pin down when dealing with another issue as well, such as

voyurism. Anyway, I know the theme appears in ancient Roman art, such as the

Warren Cup and a fresco from Pompeii. I am not sure whether perversion can

be determined from these art works.

Jim Miller



___________________________________________________________________

From: <lesleyah@primex.co.uk>

Subject: Re: [histsex] "whinge" about voyeurism

Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 08:52:06 GMT

> Does it need to be defined as a "perversion"? I

find that category

> to be difficult to pin down when dealing with

another issue as well, such as

> voyurism.

Yes, this is what I find problematic. When does there

emerge a prurient type of interest in peering at other

people, as opposed to a general interest in watching

(i.e. are there changes in the nature of 'The Gaze')

or indeed casual encounters with public nudity etc. I

suppose for it to be 'perversion' (okay, not perhaps

the most satisfactory term!) there would have to be

elements of furtiveness,

non-consensuality/reciprocity, and possibly a certain

addictive quality. But these are the sort of issues

around voyeurism/scoptophilia that I wanted to discuss



Lesley Hall

lesleyah@primex.co.uk



___________________________________________________________________From: "Dalley-Crozier ,Dr Ivan" <i.dalley-crozier@wellcome.ac.uk>

Subject: RE: [histsex] "whinge" about voyeurism

Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 11:23:32 +0100

What Jim Miller's response to Lesley suggests to me is that there is no

sense in looking at an object (ie, people looking at other people), but

rather at the discursive (and other representations) of this object in terms

of the different fields which produce these discourses. By looking at

voyerism as a perversion, one is looking at the specific sexological and

psychoanalytical discourses which considered it as such. This is NOT the

same as seeing a representation of a person looking at another (ie, Actaeon

and Diana) on an ancient vase, or even seeing it it the Titian in the

national Gallery of Scotland. These are not based on the same logics, same

theories, same 'rules of construction'. Hence, the objects ar enot the

same. Krafft-Ebing or Havelock Ellis do not understand scoptophilia the

same way that Titian does.

Cheerio, Ivan

============================================

Ivan Dalley Crozier,

i.dalley-crozier@wellcome.ac.uk

"An entertaining essay might perhaps be

written on the sexlessness of historians;

but it would be entertaining and nothing

more: we do not know enough either about

the historians or sex."

--Lytton Strachey, 1931

============================================

___________________________________________________________________From: "Colin Shingleton" <cshingleton@bigpond.com>

Subject: Re: [histsex] Near Sex defined

Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 10:32:17 +1000

My name is Colin Shingleton I have been auditing the exchange for a while

and have a long question in my drafts file waiting to be sent... but two

things on the current exchange. A dear deceased friend with an appetite for

men claimed that one should deny sexual contact even if caught in any

connection with anyone...but that while true, and said with the greatest

respect for a dear fun loving lady, is meant to be amusing. The other thing.

I am an older [my first degree was done in the 60s] Monash University

Melbourne PhD student in philosophy. David Stewart is right according to

Wittgenstein. It would seem that any contextualisation of any circumstance

can be sexual or anything else for that matter i.e. moral, psychological,

jurisprudential if we choose to so place it. The problem is in identifying

sexual encounters which are or should be illegal. This is particularly a

problem in light of the paucity of material about on the proximity of sex to

violence.

I enjoy your site and have some serious questions myself to put on this

matter.

Colin Shingleton

___________________________________________________________________

From: "Jencks" <jencks4@home.com>

Subject: [histsex] Art and Pornograhy by Morse Peckham and Near Sex defined

Date: Tue, 24 Oct 2000 16:42:22 -0600

This is more like what I'm talking about when I talk about Near Sex.

Although, I'm not sure that defining sex in terms of response is adequate

because responses are determined by personal beliefs and perspectives. I

may not respond sexually to a hug because I do not believe that hugs are

sexual. If I did, I would probably either respond sexually or respond as

offended by the other person's sexuality even if the other person didn't

believe that he/she is being sexual. Does the issue then become "If I

believe it's true than it's true" or is there still some discussion needed?

___________________________________________________________________

From: "Rictor Norton" <norton@rictor.freeserve.co.uk>

Subject: [histsex] Voyeurism

Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 20:55:34 +0100



In England, the archetype of "the voyeur" is of course Peeping Tom. Though

the story of Lady Godiva and a certain Thomas of Coventry apparently goes

back to the early medieval period, I understand it was mainly during the

Restoration period that the story became part of popular culture and

"Peeping Tom" entered the language. In 18th century erotica (in France and

in England) and bawdy prints it's fairly common to show a servant hovering

in a door peeping at his mistress and her paramour making love. Sometimes of

course it's the husband returning home unexpected, only to discover he has

been cuckholded, and such an image doesn't show a voyeur. But quite a few of

them, as I say, do show the servants as voyeurs, sometimes a young servant

boy sporting an erection. Jim Miller mentioned the Warren Cup in this

connection, but he seems to have been misunderstood by Ivan Dalley-Crozier

to be referring to situations such as Diana looking at Actaeon on a vase

etc. The point of mentioning the Warren Cup is that a boyservant is peering

around the edge of a half-open door at a man and youth having sex, seemingly

with great interest, i.e. he is a voyeur peeping at sexual activity not

meant to be seen by him.

A bawdy English work in 1761 is called _Peeping through the Keyhole_ and

features a hero named Peeping Tim [sic]. William Hogarth's large print

"Strolling Actresses Dressing in a Barn", dated 1738, shows numerous actress

in various states of undress, with a young lad peeping through a hole in the

roof (i.e. the viewer of the painting and the boy are both voyeurs here).

Hogarth proposed his subscription for this and other prints with a little

print called "Boys Peeping at Nature". Standards of privacy were much less

emphasized in the early 18th century than they came to be in the Victorian

period, yet the image of the voyeur was well understood, and indeed seems to

be not uncommon for a good many centuries before that.

--

Rictor Norton, London

mailto:norton@rictor.freeserve.co.uk

http://www.infopt.demon.co.uk



___________________________________________________________________

Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 15:59:11 -0500

From: David Nicholas Harley <David.N.Harley.4@nd.edu>

Subject: Re: [histsex] Voyeurism

Rictor is quite right, of course, in arguing that the depiction or

description of furtive gazing at nakedness or sexual activity has a long

cultural history. I would draw especial attention to the book of Susanna

and the Elders in the Old Testament Apocrypha.

This story was often depicted in the Renaissance and early modern periods,

most famously by Rembrandt:

http://www.artchive.com/artchive/R/rembrandt/susanna.jpg.html

Also Lorenzo Lotto:

http://sunsite.dk/cgfa/lotto/p-lotto7.htm

Tintoretto:

http://www.khm.at/khm/staticE/page713.html

Guercino:

http://gallery.euroweb.hu/html/g/guercino/susanna.html

Van Dyck:

http://www.abcgallery.com/V/vandyck/vandyck46.html

Artemisia Gentileschi:

http://members.nbci.com/womenart/artists/gentileschi/susanna.htm

This last is especially interesting, as it is not only her first signed and

dated painting, produced when she was 17 and therefore probably before her

famous rape, but also because it unequivocally takes the side of the

molested Susanna. There is no trace of the coy interest on Susanna's part

that is seemingly depicted by many male artists.

Lesley's point, however, was to enquire into the definition of this as a

"perversion". My impression is that, before the 18th or 19th centuries,

wishing to observe forbidden sights was regarded as understandable

curiosity, even if it led to the vengeful viciousness of the Elders.

Looking at the body was not, in and of itself, depraved. Rather, it was

the depraved imagination that was the problem. Perhaps the shift in

attitude is connected with the rise of tableaux vivants or, even more

likely, the rise of more downmarket strip shows. Or it may just be a

product of the prudishness and hypocrisy we tend to think of as "Victorian

values".

David Harley

Dept. of History

219 O'Shaughnessy

University of Notre Dame

Notre Dame IN 46556

219-631-7313



___________________________________________________________________

From: "Lesley Hall" <lesleyah@primex.co.uk>

Subject: Re: [histsex] Voyeurism

Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 22:04:01 +0100



>"perversion". My impression is that, before the 18th or 19th centuries,

>wishing to observe forbidden sights was regarded as understandable

>curiosity,

I wonder if the stigmatisation of the pleasures of looking bears any

relationship to the rise of the pathologisation of masturbation? (If one can

date it to the C18th when Onania-mania first arose)

Lesley Hall

lesleyah@primex.co.uk

website http://homepages.primex.co.uk/~lesleyah



___________________________________________________________________ From: "Jencks" <jencks4@home.com>

Subject: Re: [histsex] Near Sex experiences....

Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 18:47:54 -0600

> I see your point: the overarching problem here is contextual. One cannot

> talk about discourses of sexuality (or anything else) in absolute terms.

> Your examples: moral/legal/social/pedagogical: are all restricted by their

> institutional and social contexts. So, as long as these contexts are

> defined in order to establish the parameters of your definition, then

> whatever definition of licit sex/non-sex/near sex/illicit sex, etc will at

> least be defined and then open to commentary. That is, what ever knowledge

> claims you are making about sexuality can be discussed.

You're right. In a way, I'm trying to work within all these contexts at

once but I am aware of how different they are. I think the contexts that

are the most important (at least to me) are the legal and the social. The

legal in terms of helping law enforcement to pursue child abusers and other

criminal types without also harrassing innocence and kind heartedness. The

social in terms of improving communication so that we know when people want

to have sex with us and don't misread each other's signals.

> The beautiful thing about knowledge is that it is never the property of

the

> person who made the claim, but of the community who accept it.... rejected

> knowledge claims are not knowledge.

I disagree. Knowledge isn't owned by anyone. Neither the person who makes

the claim nor the community that accepts it. Knowledge is like the land is

to the Indians. We may use it. We may alter it. But we must respect it by

never claiming to own it.

> This is why your final comment on criteria for testing is particualrly

> difficult for me to accept. How does one make a claim for a prior

knowledge

> based on a test: one cannot... Data are always under-determined, so tests

> therefore are as well, although the extent to which this is the case

depends

> on the social and intellectual climate.

I'm not sure I understand this paragraph. How am I even attempting to make

a claim to prior knowledge? Rereading my own letter I realize that I

accidentally put a period when I meant to put a question mark. I meant to

type "What criteria or test can be used to tell when a hug, sex talk or

nudity are sexual and when they are not?" The specific criteria or test I

am looking for (if a criteria or test is possible) is: How can a person

tell when others are being sexual? And can one's sexuality be changed (for

example, can a pedophile relearn a different sexuality)?

Before anyone gets offended by that last question, even if one's sexuality

can be changed, I don't think that all sexuality should be changed. I would

only be interested in changing sexuality that is harmful such as child

abuse. Homosexuality is okay by me.



___________________________________________________________________From: "Jencks" <jencks4@home.com>

Subject: [histsex] Historical perspective on Near Sex

Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 19:16:19 -0600

Don't ask me for dates or references. I'm not that much of a historian. I

have a Bachelor of Science in Psychology.

However, from what I understand, The Victorian Era had a big influence on

the increase of child sexual abuse that we've been experiencing this

century. The Victorian Era taught standards that women were supposed to be

ignorant of sex. This led to the notion that innocent women were sexier

than experienced women. This led to the notion that innocence is sexy and

of course, what could be more innocent than a prepubescent.

>From what I understand, hollywood censorship increased the eroticism of

cleavage. The effect of censoring cleavage on the air sent the message that

cleavage is sexy. Since the censors have loosened up. The erotic interest

in cleavage has also seemed to decrease.

>From what I understand, in ancient times there was no concept of

homosexuality as an identity. They had a concept for homosexual acts but a

man could have sex with another man and (as long as he remained dominant) he

was still seen as good marriage material for the women. Then, there were a

lot higher percentage of bisexual stories around then there seem to be

today. In modern times, the belief is that you are either gay or you're

not. Most gay stories today are about men who have never had an experience

with a woman and have no interest in women.

Based on these historic examples, do beliefs exert a significant influence

on our definitions of sexuality? Is cleavage erotic because hollywood

taught us that it was erotic? Or is eroticism completely independent of

what we learn? If our beliefs exert a significant influence on eroticism,

than we need to be more responsible in what we teach our children so that

they eroticise in healthy, safe ways. (Again, I'm speaking against child

abuse and rape, not against lifestyle choices).



___________________________________________________________________

Date: Wed, 25 Oct 2000 19:07:18 -0700

From: julian carter <jcarter@leland.Stanford.EDU>

Subject: [histsex] slippery sexuality

Dear colleagues,

I think I'll take this opportunity to introduce myself. I work on the

concept of sexual normality in the early 20th c U.S.--which is to say, I'm

think about the horizons of the thinkable that govern "middle America" with

regard to sex. I'm especially interested in the racial element in that

normalized average American identity. I could, and probably eventually

will, say more--I'd benefit from opportunities to converse with you all

about my projects--but at the moment I'm interested in a comment from the

"Near Sex" thread:

>How can a person

>tell when others are being sexual? And can one's sexuality be changed (for

>example, can a pedophile relearn a different sexuality)?

One of the things that makes sexuality fun and interesting to me is

precisely that there is no empirically verifiable way to gauge another

person's erotic being. Hence the importance for sexual confidence of bodily

signs of arousal: is she wet? Is he hard? According to Linda Williams and

many another theorist of the gaze, a big part of conventional massmarket

porn consists of the attempt to document or "prove" not only desire but

pleasure--and in addition to such comparatively academic concerns, knowing

when your partner has come has direct practical value for relationships...

These questions of proof are also at the center of historical methodology

and can create big problems for those of us whose pursuit of sexual

certainty and knowledge happens in conversation with the dead. We all know

how difficult it can be to find Evidence of what people wanted, let alone

what they did or what it meant to them. And that brings me to the second

question above: Can one's sexuality be changed? It seems to me that the

belief in change over time is one a precondition for practicing the history

of sexuality, so certainly change can happen; the question is whether it

happens within one lifetime or across generations, and both scholarship and

personal experience suggest to me that the answer is yes. After all, isn't

that a basic tenet of the modern belief that childhood sexuality is either

nonexistent or distinct from adult sexuality? Without the belief that

sexuality changes across our lives, the notion that one might need to

protect children from pedophiles (or the Internet) would make little sense.

Finally, I'm wondering what happens if we shift the voice of your question

from passive to active: not, can change be imposed upon one (yes, but it's

usually traumatic and not necessarily permanent), but rather, how can we

account for the myriad ways in which sexuality continually changes, and

then what do we do with that solid remnant, the apparently-unchanging sense

of desiring selfhood and aroused flesh, that grounds individual identity in

lived experience?

As for the question about the pedophile changing his spots...it depends on

what you're calling sexuality, doesn't it? If what gets you hot is thinking

about the kiddies, I imagine it's pretty difficult to undo whatever's

working for you there. Just try eradicating your favorite fantasy material

from your internal monologue for a while and see if it works. But if one's

arousal is accompanied by recognition that this desire is only and always

material for fantasy....well, is the pedophile still "a pedophile" if the

desire isn't translated into action? Or if the desire is channeled into sex

with a consenting adult who gets his or her kicks through enacting youth or

infancy? Or if it's channeled into a life of loving support for youthful

self-discovery, as in teaching?

I'd love to get some thoughts about this from all of you out there in tv land

Julian



___________________________________________________________________

From: MillerJimE@aol.com

Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 01:51:30 EDT

Subject: Re: [histsex] Historical perspective on Near Sex



jencks4@home.com writes:

<< From what I understand, in ancient times there was no concept of

homosexuality as an identity. They had a concept for homosexual acts but a

man could have sex with another man and (as long as he remained dominant) he

was still seen as good marriage material for the women. >>

Actually homosexuality was an identity -- two identities, one for men,

the other for women, and the one for men was usually separate from pederasty.

Women who did women were known as tribads in both Greek and Latin. They had

very little space in the literature of the time, but what space they had

indicated they were seen as a distinct class of people. Likewise men who did

other men (adult-adult relationships) were seen as a distinct group, as often

theoretical and comic as realistic. Only in special situations (e.g. dealing

with a conquered army) was it appropriate for a man to do another adult man.

Pederasts were not seen as a distinct group. Pederasty was seen as a

legitimate alternative to women, and the adult male could switch between the

two. Sex between women or between adult males was seen as "queer" -- deviant

or substandard behavior. Sex between a man and a boy (with the adult having

the "man's" role) was seen as "straight" behavior. Having a mistress and

having a boy were roughly equivalent.

Jim Miller



___________________________________________________________________From: "Julie Cox" <jmcjls@earthlink.net>

Subject: Re: [histsex] sexology bibliographies?/sex in ancient Egypt

Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 00:04:27 -0700



> Let me know if you want to discuss this further.

> Cheerio, Ivan

well since you offered Ivan......I do have the Bland/Doan anthology. Also

the companion volume.

I didn't think Charcot would really count as a sexologist but in some ways

he seems to lead up to them. His work on "hysterics" for example.

I introduced myself approx. 2-3 weeks ago. But to give everyone a

refresher, I'm a PhD student in Literature at the University of California

at Santa Cruz. Interested in the scientific construction of sex, sexuality

and gender and its intersections with ethnicity and evolutionary theory.

Most interested in American Lit. from approx. 1890-1945 and how the

aforementioned make appearances in literary works. Like Frank Norris's

_McTeague_ for example. French is my secondary language (UCSC's Lit. dept.

is a comparative one)

Who would be considered the first sexologist? Who gets to call themselves

"sexologist"?I am interested in later sexologists, such as Kinsey, because

of the trajectory such later works inevitably follow from earlier ones. If

that makes sense. (might not, I should've been asleep a couple hours ago)

Thanks so much for all the suggestions.

Julie M. Cox

jmcjls@earthlink.net



___________________________________________________________________From: "Dalley-Crozier ,Dr Ivan" <i.dalley-crozier@wellcome.ac.uk>

Subject: RE: [histsex] sexology bibliographies?/sex in ancient Egypt

Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 10:33:02 +0100

Dear Julie,

You wrote:

"I didn't think Charcot would really count as a sexologist but in some ways

he seems to lead up to them. His work on "hysterics" for example."

Sure, I think that Charcot's work was essential to SOME later sexologists.

One of the really important aspects of Continental sexology was that many of

the practitioners (Moll, Krafft-Ebing, Forel, Fere, Schrenck-Notzing, etc)

wrote texts in hypnotism. Obviously there were more schools of hypnotism

than Charcot's (Bernheim, for example). But I think that one of the key

reasons that sexology developed was because hypnotists, esp. Fere and Binet,

started asking what made someone sexually attracted to some object in

particular. This built into work on fetichism, which is one strand of the

development of sexology. It makes up a whole strand of work on acquired

sexual desires. But the other major strand of sexological

research--congenital desires--is addressed by your comment below.

For this part, though, see Henri Ellenberger, The Dicovery of the

Unconsciousness, 1970, as well as an excellent article by George Makari,

"Towards Defining the Freudian Unconscious: Seduction, Sexology and the

Negative of Perversion (1896-1905)," History of Psychiatry, 3, 1997,

pp.459-486.

You mentioned:

"sexuality and gender and its intersections with ethnicity and evolutionary

theory."

This is another quite important strand in the development of sexology, esp.

of the kind promulgated by Havelock Ellis, as well as many homosexual rights

activists, like JA Symonds, Edward Carpenter, etc. Darwin, as you know, in

Descent of Man, addressed the question of sexual attraction in a biological

way, and this had the effect of relativising sexual taste in biologiocal

terms. Ellis' work is much more in this line of thinking than the other

Continental sexologists, but he also held some similar ideas to Albert Moll

(and refined them considerably). Although Ellis is indeed another topic: do

not getme started.

As for ethnology, it is important, because, for Ellis again (who is a very

significant figure), it suggests that many sexual practices are congenital

*because* they are universal (ie, inversion is not a product of Victorian

England, because it has been documented by Bancroft, Burton, Westermarck,

Malinowski, etc all over the world, and because it exists historically like

in Ancient Greece). This is Ellis' view, I hasten to add.

For more reading, see Lawrence

Ellis, for me, is extremely siginificant because he tried to pull together

both of these strands of sexological reasoning with in the context of late

Victorian and Edwardian science and mediicne. So, if you want a good, sound

introduction to pre-Freudian sex psychology, and into pre-Kinseyean

sexology, then could be worse sources than Ellis.

Cheerio, Ivan



___________________________________________________________________From: "Dalley-Crozier ,Dr Ivan" <i.dalley-crozier@wellcome.ac.uk>

Subject: RE: [histsex] sexology bibliographies?/sex in ancient Egypt

Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 10:35:04 +0100



That last reference I was putting in was Lawrence Birken, Consuming Desire:

Sexual Science and the Emergence of a Culture of Abundance, 1871-1914,

Ithaca, 1988. Got excited: sorry...

ijdc

============================================

Ivan Dalley Crozier,

i.dalley-crozier@wellcome.ac.uk

"An entertaining essay might perhaps be

written on the sexlessness of historians;

but it would be entertaining and nothing

more: we do not know enough either about

the historians or sex."

--Lytton Strachey, 1931

============================================

___________________________________________________________________

From: Ailly@gmx.de

Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 11:50:18 +0200

Subject: [histsex] (fwd) History of Rape: A Bibliography

From: Stefan Blaschke <a2534304@Smail.Uni-Koeln.de>

Sent: Wednesday, October 25, 2000 4:51 AM

Subject: Announcement: History of Rape: A Bibliography

History of Rape: A Bibliography

by Stefan Blaschke

Version 1.0 (October 25, 2000)

<URL:http://www.crosswinds.net/~blaschke/horb/horb.html>

The bibliography contains print and electronic articles, books and

other sources dealing - exclusively or in in parts - with the history of

rape, child abuse and sexual violence in general. Reviews and

translations are also listed. Where possible, links are provided to

sources that are available online.

The bibliography will be constantly updated. I am still searching

for more articles and books. If you have information to add or if you

found a mistake in the bibliography, please send an e-mail to me:

<mailto: a2534304@smail.uni-koeln.de>.

Table of Contents

I Bibliographies and other Tools

II General Works

III Ancient History

III.1 Greek History

III.2 Roman History

IV Medieval History

V Modern History

V.1 Early Modern Times

V.2 19th and 20th Centuries

VI Debate: A Natural History of Rape?

VI.1 Works by Randy Thornhill

VI.2 Critics and Reviews



___________________________________________________________________

From: "Dalley-Crozier ,Dr Ivan" <i.dalley-crozier@wellcome.ac.uk>

Subject: RE: [histsex] sexology bibliographies?/sex in ancient Egypt

Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 10:58:21 +0100



Dear Julie, and others (if interested),

It just occurred to me that you might appreciate it if I posted my

bibliography on sexology and its development the list? This would contain

primary and secondary sources. Any thoughts?

ijdc, in a bout of benevolence.

============================================

Ivan Dalley Crozier,

i.dalley-crozier@wellcome.ac.uk

"An entertaining essay might perhaps be

written on the sexlessness of historians;

but it would be entertaining and nothing

more: we do not know enough either about

the historians or sex."

--Lytton Strachey, 1931

============================================

___________________________________________________________________

Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 10:59:41 +0100

From: cristina santos <cristina@sonata.fe.uc.pt>

Subject: RE: [histsex] sexology bibliographies?/sex in ancient Egypt

At 10:58 26/10/00 +0100, Dalley-Crozier ,Dr Ivan wrote:

It just occurred to me that you might appreciate it if I posted my

>bibliography on sexology and its development the list?



Yes, please do, we're very much interested!

Thanks,

Cristina

Ana Cristina Santos

Centre for Social Studies

Apartado 3087

3001-401 Coimbra - Portugal

Phone 00 351 239855583



___________________________________________________________________From: <lesleyah@primex.co.uk>

Subject: Re: [histsex] "whinge" about voyeurism

Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 10:40:34 GMT

Mike

I find that distinction you draw my attention

to between the look and the Gaze really helpful. I

wonder if the stigmatisation of the voyeur goes

alongside the development of phenomena such as the

medical Gaze i.e. that there are those who are

permitted or even obliged to observe, but that this is

increasingly an area of reserved privilege? Though one

thing I find interesting/ironic is that there is v

little on voyeurism per se (as opposed to in

connection with particular fetishes) in the 'classic'

sexological compilations such as Krafft-Ebing, Ellis,

Bloch - who are themselves gazing at other people's

sexuality...



Lesley Hall

lesleyah@primex.co.uk



___________________________________________________________________From: "scpayne" <scpayne@peoplepc.com>

Subject: RE:[histsex] New Member

Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 06:51:31 -0400



Stuart C.Payne

scpayne@peoplepc.com



I would take this opportunity to thank-you all for the ongoing =

discussion regarding the historical aspects of your study of sexuality.

Although I do not fit into the category or realm of the researcher that =

all of you obviously have been involved with a great deal of

your lives; I do believe I might bring some intrigue into your quest by =

bringing to you that "fly-on-the-wall" insight that sometimes

brings about a new perspective that wasn't considered before.

I am a recent retiree who worked for a large automobile company. I am =

what is known as a "Tinsmith" but the title does not cover

the intricacies of the work involved.

My immediate reason for becoming a member of your list is to find =

information on behalf of my wife who is a social-worker .

She is currently the Program Coordinator of a volunteer group that =

provides court appointed special advocates for children in

child abuse cases. She also volunteers on a rape crisis hot line.

And although the aspects of this work is kept confidential between us ; =

she does occasionaly ask my advice about some

aspect of her current cases.

Ah!! There's the rub!! She wants information I don't have ;and she =

doesn't have the time to search for the answer.

So with that in mind I ask your indulgence as to my being a part of any =

future discussions ; or on the rare occasion

a request for information.

Thank-you,

Stuart C. Payne

scpayne@peoplepc.com









___________________________________________________________________

From: "Dalley-Crozier ,Dr Ivan" <i.dalley-crozier@wellcome.ac.uk>

Subject: RE: [histsex] sexology bibliography from Crozier

Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 12:08:23 +0100



OK, one largish bibliogrpahy.... I have edited out the social theory, the

general history, and things which otherwise are not relevant.

It is the bibliog. from my PhD thesis/forthcoming book on Havelock Ellis and

English medical writing on homosexuality, 1850-1900. I hope it is of some

use to some of you. But this is one of the most useful functions of lists

like this.

Cheerio, Ivan

Primary Sources

Acton, W., A Complete Practical Treatise on the Diseases of the Urinary and

Generative Organs, 1st ed, London, 1841

--, A Practical Treatise on the Diseases of the Urinary and Generative

Organs (in both sexes), 2nd ed., London, 1851

--, Functions and Disorders of the Reproductive Organs, 4th ed., London,

1865

--, Prostitution, Considered in its Moral, Social and Sanitary Aspects, In

London and Other Large Cities: With Proposals for the Mitigation and

Prevention of its Attendant Evils, London, 1857, 2nd ed. 1870, repr. London,

1969 (ed. Peter Fryer)

Anon., "Aberrations of the Sexual Instinct," Medical Times and Gazette,

February 9, 1867, pp.141-146

Anon., report on Westphal's "Die Conträre Sexualempfindung," Journal of

Mental Science, October, 1871, p.422

Bancroft, H. H., Native Races of the Pacific States of North America, 5

vols, London, 1875-1876

Beck, T. R., and J. B. Beck, Elements of Medical Jurisprudence, 7th ed.,

London, 1842

Annie Besant, Law of Population: Its Consequences, and its Bearing upon

Human Conduct and Morals, London, 1887

Binet, A., and Charles Féré, Animal Magnetism, New York, 1888

Bouchereau, G., "Erotic Insanity; or Erotomania," in H. Tuke (ed.), A

Dictionary of Psychological Medicine

Bradlaugh, C., and Annie Besant, "preface," to Charles Knowlton, Fruits of

Philosophy: or, the Private Companion of Young Married People, Melbourne,

1877

Bucknill, J. C., and D. H. Tuke (eds), Manual of Psychological Medicine,

Philadelphia, 1858, [orig. London, 1852]

Burton, R. F., Book of a Thousand Nights and a Night, 10 vols., "Terminal

Essay", 10, London, 1886

Burton, R. F., Book of a Thousand Nights and a Night, 7 vols., London, 1897

Carpenter, E., Love's Coming-of-Age: A Series of Papers on the Relation of

the Sexes, London, 1930, [orig 1894]

--, My Days and Dreams, London, 1916

--, The Intermediate Sex, London and Manchester, 1921, [orig.1908]

-- , The Intermediate Type Among Primitive Folk, London, 1919

Casper, J. L., "Ueber Nothzucht und Päderastie und deren Ermittelung Seitens

des Gerichtesarztes" Vierteljahrschrift für gerichtliche öffentliche

Medizin, 1, Berlin, 1852, repr. in Joachim Hohmann (ed), Der unterdrückte

Sexus, Berlin, 1977, pp.239-70

--, Handbook for the Practice of Forensic Medicine, Based Upon personal

Experience, 4 vols, trans. G. W. Balfour, London, 1863-5

Costler, A., Willy and others, Encyclopaedia of Sexual Knowledge, ed. Norman

Haire, London, 1924, [repr. 1934]

Courtenay, F. B., On Spermatorrhoea: How to Treat and Cure it: With

Practical Observations on the Professional Fallacies and Popular Delusions

which Prevail in Relation to its Nature, 7th Edition, London, 186*, [1st

ed., 1857]

Curling, T.B. A Practical Treatise on the Diseases of the Testis and of the

Spermatic Cord and Scrotum, 4th ed., London, 1878

Darwin, C., The Descent of Man, 2nd ed., London, 1888

Dawson, R., An Essay on Spermatorrhoea, and Urinary Deposits, With

Observations of the Nature, Causes, and Treatment of Various Disorders of

the Generative System, 6th ed., London, 1852, [1st ed., 1840]

Drysdale, G.R., Elements of Social Science; or, Physical, Sexual and Natural

Religion, London, 34th ed., 1900

Dunn, R., Medical Psychology, London, 1863

Ellis, H., The Criminal, London, 1890

--, Man and Woman, London, 1894

--, "The Study of Sexual Inversion," Medico-Legal Journal, 12, 1894,

pp.148-57

--, "Sexual Inversion in Women," Alienist and Neurologist, 16, 1895,

pp.148-59

--, "A Note on the Treatment of Sexual Inversion", Alienist and Neurologist,

17, 1896, pp.257-64

--, "Sexual Inversion in Man," Alienist and Neurologist, 17, 1896, pp.115-50

--, "On Dreaming of the Dead," Psychological Review, 2, 1895

--, "A Note on Hypnagogic Paramnesia," Mind, n.s. 7, 1897

--, Sexual Inversion, Watford, 1897

--, "A Note on the Bedborough Trial," privately printed, Watford, 1898

--, "The Question of Indecent Literature (Letters to the Editor)," Lancet,

1898 II, p.1409

--, "Hysteria in Relation to the Sexual Emotions," Alienist and Neurologist,

19, 1898, pp.599-615

--, "The Stuff Dreams are Made Of," Popular Science Monthly, 1899

--, Sexual Inversion, Philadelphia, 1901

--, Review of Über den Traum, by Sigmund Freud, Journal of Mental Science,

47, 1901, pp.370-1

--, The World of Dreams, London, 1911

--, Sexual Inversion, Philadelphia, 1915

--, "Birth Control", Physical Culture, Sept/Oct/Nov, 1915

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Storr, M., "Transformations: subjects, categories and cases in

Krafft-Ebing's sexology," in Bland & Doan (eds), Sexology in Culture

Sulloway, F.J., Freud, Biologist of the Mind: Beyond the Psychoanalytic

Legend, New York, 1979

--, "Reassessing Freud's Case Histories: the Social Construction of

Psychoanalysis," Isis, 82, 1992, pp. 245-75

Summers, A., "The Correspondents of Havelock Ellis," History Workshop

Journal, 1991, Autumn, p166-183

Szreter, S., "Falling Fertility and Changing Sexualities in Europe since

c.1850," in Eder, Hall & Hekma (eds), Sexual Cultures in Europe: National

Histories

Walkowitz, J., Prostitution and Victorian Society; Women, Class and the

State, Cambridge, 1980

Waters, C., "Havelock Ellis, Sigmund Freud and the State: discourses of

homosexuality in interwar Britain," in Bland & Doan (eds), Sexology in

Culture

Weeks, J., Coming Out: Homosexual Politics in Britain, from the Nineteenth

Century to the Present, London, 1977

--, "Havelock Ellis and the Politics of Homosexuality," in Rowbotham and

Weeks, Socialism and the New Life, London, 1977

--, Sex, Politics and Society: The Regulation of Sexuality Since 1800, 2nd

ed., London, 1989

--, Against Nature, London, 1991

--, "Inverts, Perverts, and Mary-Annes: Male Prostitution and the Regulation

of Homosexuality in England in the Nineteenth and Twentieth Centuries," in

Weeks, Against Nature, pp43-68

Young, R. M., "Freud: scientist and/or humanist," Revised version of a talk

given to the Group for the History of the Human Sciences, Durham University,

Free Associations, 6, 1986, pp.7-35,

http://www.human-nature.com/rmyoung/papers/paper42.html

============================================

Ivan Dalley Crozier,

i.dalley-crozier@wellcome.ac.uk

"An entertaining essay might perhaps be

written on the sexlessness of historians;

but it would be entertaining and nothing

more: we do not know enough either about

the historians or sex."

--Lytton Strachey, 1931

============================================



___________________________________________________________________

Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 08:58:00 -0400 (EDT)

From: Elise R Chenier <3erc3@qlink.queensu.ca>

Subject: [histsex] Sexology

Greetings,

Recently I spent some time at the Kinsey Institute where it was pointed

out to me in no uncertain terms that there is no such thing as a

sexologist. There is no program of sexology, no degree in sexology,

etc. Although I admit that I still use the term occasionally, and of

course we historians all know what we mean when we say it, I thought I'd

share with you this apparent irritant among "medical experts" who study

sex.

>

> Who would be considered the first sexologist? Who gets to call themselves

> "sexologist"?I am interested in later sexologists, such as Kinsey, because



Elise Chenier



___________________________________________________________________

Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 09:21:24 -0400 (EDT)

From: Leslie Ambedian <ambedian@yorku.ca>

Subject: [histsex] listbot query





Is there a way to have histsex messages show up in digest form through

listbot? I've looked, and not found a way so far.

-Leslie

***

Leslie Ambedian "Soylent Green... ...is not people.

ambedian@wiznet.ca Soylent Green is kittens. We apologise

or ambedian@yorku.ca for the error."

http://www.wiznet.ca/~ambedian



___________________________________________________________________

From: "Dalley-Crozier ,Dr Ivan" <i.dalley-crozier@wellcome.ac.uk>

Subject: RE: [histsex] Sexology

Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 14:28:11 +0100

Dear Elise Chernier,

Sure, although I am not convinced that it is not a useful shorthand category

for historians. And as I am not writing medical stuff, but historical texts

for other historians, then the term I chose has to have some meaning for

historians rather than medics. And it is a term used by historians: see

Bland and Doan, 1998, for example. In this historian-friendly sense,

sexologist means sex psychologist/sex sociologist, and a whole batch of

other types of medical and pseudo-medical stuff (psychiatry, jurisprudence,

etc). And at different times it has had a similar meaning for the

practitioners of sexology: what about the British Sexological Association?

As I also study them (in their earlier incarnation as the Brit Soc for the

Study of Sex Psychology), I am not sure if it is such a problem.

This is not meant to sound as irritated as it surely does.

ijdc



============================================

Ivan Dalley Crozier,

i.dalley-crozier@wellcome.ac.uk

"An entertaining essay might perhaps be

written on the sexlessness of historians;

but it would be entertaining and nothing

more: we do not know enough either about

the historians or sex."

--Lytton Strachey, 1931

============================================

___________________________________________________________________Subject: Re: [histsex] "whinge" about voyeurism

Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 10:33:35 -0500

From: "Michael J. Murphy" <mjmurphy@artsci.wustl.edu>

Lesley,

To think that the stigmatization of the voyeur accompanied the emergence

of the medical gaze seems to me to ask whether the concept of the Gaze

developed by Lacan is reconcilable with Foucault's notion of the

panopticon developed in Discipline and Punish. All of Foucault's work

depends on the notion of the Enlightenment as a great rupture inagurating

new social relations, not the least of which were the empiricist human

sciences and medical looking (although he curiously overlooked the

invention of photography in the early 19th c., hmmm). The late 18th

century is the exact period Kaja Silverman points to in her assertion

that men arrogated the gaze to themselves but do not actually own it. She

and I are both interested in the role of fashion in (re)asserting men's

'natural' ownership of the Gaze.

Neo-natal thought: I wonder if it might be useful to separate primary

scop(t)ophilia from voyeurism, the prior being pleasure gained from

looking, the latter being the socially unacceptable pursuit of pleasure

in looking, often encoding unequal sex/gender relations? It seems to me a

key element of voyeurism is the voyeur's desire to see without being seen

(like cinematic spectatorship, but that's far afield). S/he always looks

'through the keyhole' so to speak. This structure of

seeing-without-being-seen denies the fundamentally specular foundations

of subjectivity laid out by Lacan--that is our sense of ourselves in our

bodies comes from our image of ourselves seen from outside ourselves; we

are profoundly dependent on the gaze of the Other, hence the notion of

inter-subjectivity. I can't help but think that the rise of Enlightenment

philosophies of possessive individualism--property in oneself--are not

merely coincidental with a voyeuristic practice which derives pleasure

from disavowing the viewer's dependence on an Other's gaze. In short, men

assert their consonance with individualist ideologies by denying any

social (inter)dependence, and they do so by pursuing visual pleasures

which disavow their fundamental dependence on the look of the Other for

their subjectivity. Of course, this disavowal cannot succeed; how could

it without the collapse of their subjectivity (at least according to

Lacan)? Perhaps this explains the sexual frisson attached to the

possibility of being caught looking-without-being-seen? It does not

surprise me that male sexologists failed to discuss voyeuristic looking

apart from its association with fetishistic neuroses, afterall like all

empirical scientists they were primarily concerned to define the normal

through the discursive production (they called it 'identification') of

the abnormal and pathological. To discuss male voyeurism as abnormal

would be to reveal the processes by which the Gaze is naturalized to men.

And that would mean The Fall of Western Civilization, and we can't have

that, now can we?

Further neo-natalism: As for voyeurism in Ancient Egypt and Rome, that

presents a certain methodological problem in the use of psychoanalysis.

What must be weighed are the explanatory values of psychoanalysis against

the assumptions inherent in its ahistorical application, i.e. are

intra-psychic processes universal or somehow inherent in human

consciousness outside of history? By separating scopophilia from

voyeurism we might detach the hard-wired cognitive process of 'pleasure

gained though looking' from the historical phenomenon of voyeurism as it

encodes unequal relations of sex or gender (or indeed race, ethnicity and

class)? Perhaps the one structure has been collapsed into the other but

is not natural to it?

Sorry if I ramble; hope this is useful to you.

Mike



>Mike

>I find that distinction you draw my attention

>to between the look and the Gaze really helpful. I

>wonder if the stigmatisation of the voyeur goes

>alongside the development of phenomena such as the

>medical Gaze i.e. that there are those who are

>permitted or even obliged to observe, but that this is

>increasingly an area of reserved privilege? Though one

>thing I find interesting/ironic is that there is v

>little on voyeurism per se (as opposed to in

>connection with particular fetishes) in the 'classic'

>sexological compilations such as Krafft-Ebing, Ellis,

>Bloch - who are themselves gazing at other people's

>sexuality...

>

>

>Lesley Hall

>lesleyah@primex.co.uk



___________________________________________________________________Subject: RE: [histsex] Sexology

Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 10:46:14 -0500

From: "Michael J. Murphy" <mjmurphy@artsci.wustl.edu>



Ivan and Elise,

I wonder if it's useful to consider how the term sexologist functions to

consoldiate sex as one thing instead of many things, and to imply that

sex is merely a matter of empirical inquiry and study, that its evidence

is the evidence of genital contact, etc. In short that the moniker

Sexologist does not merely mark the emergence of a quasi-discipline in

the human sciences but serves an ideological function within the history

of sexuality?

Mike Murphy

Michael J. Murphy, M.A.

Doctoral Student, Dept. of Art History and Archaeology

Washington University, St. Louis

mjmurphy@artsci.wustl.edu

"I've always depended on the kindness of strangers." -Blanche Dubois



___________________________________________________________________

From: <lesleyah@primex.co.uk>

Subject: Re: [histsex] listbot query

Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 15:51:22 GMT



> Is there a way to have histsex messages show up in

digest form through

> listbot? I've looked, and not found a way so far.

>

Sorry - a digest option is another thing that is not

enabled in listbot. I'm still open to other

suggestions for an alternative listserv.

Lesley Hall

lesleyah@primex.co.uk



___________________________________________________________________

From: "Dalley-Crozier ,Dr Ivan" <i.dalley-crozier@wellcome.ac.uk>

Subject: RE: [histsex] Sexology

Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 17:12:15 +0100

Dear Mike,

While I agree with what you are saying, one must remember that it was

precisely the aim of the early sexologists to say exactly what sex is... And

this is why there are so many institutional and field specific clashes

between people (like Freud and Ellis, for example). I am not saying that

there is one meaning of sex only, but Albert Moll might well have thought he

had the answers to the question of what made sexual desire possible, or what

sex really is (or Freud, or Fere, or Forel, etc). Again, this is the

difference between me writing as an historian of medical writing, and a

doctor in the 19th C writing about sex.

ijdc

============================================

Ivan Dalley Crozier,

i.dalley-crozier@wellcome.ac.uk

"An entertaining essay might perhaps be

written on the sexlessness of historians;

but it would be entertaining and nothing

more: we do not know enough either about

the historians or sex."

--Lytton Strachey, 1931

============================================

___________________________________________________________________

Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 11:11:39 -0700 (MST)

From: Tim Hodgdon <Tim.Hodgdon@asu.edu>

Subject: Re: [histsex] "whinge" about voyeurism



Question for Michael J. Murphy re his proposal to distinguish

"scopophilia" from "voyeurism": are the consequences different for the

person being looked at?

Tim Hodgdon

Ph.D. candidate

Department of History

Arizona State University

Tim.Hodgdon@asu.edu





___________________________________________________________________

From: "Jencks" <jencks4@home.com>

Subject: Re: [histsex] slippery sexuality

Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 20:54:41 -0600



>well, is the pedophile still "a pedophile" if the

> desire isn't translated into action? Or if the desire is channeled into

sex

> with a consenting adult who gets his or her kicks through enacting youth

or

> infancy? Or if it's channeled into a life of loving support for youthful

> self-discovery, as in teaching?

The only problem is that a significant number (if not the majority) of

pedophiles also eroticize violence and/or manipulation. This makes it more

difficult to channel especially into "a life of loving support for youthful

self-discovery, as in teaching."

I am very interested in the active question "how do we come to terms with

the myriad of sexual variations?" I am also generally interested in more of

your views.



___________________________________________________________________From: "Jencks" <jencks4@home.com>

Subject: Re: [histsex] Sexology

Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 21:03:36 -0600

>ntly I spent some time at the Kinsey Institute where it was pointed

> out to me in no uncertain terms that there is no such thing as a

> sexologist. There is no program of sexology, no degree in sexology,

> etc.

If ever there is such a thing as a sexologists, it probably will be a term

that is rarely used like the term biologists. Within biology are hundreds

of specialties including zoology, ecology, and agronomy. Within sexology

there is the psychology of sex, the history of sex, the physiology of sex

and probably hundreds of other specialties. When we come up with terms for

people who study each specialty we'll probably use these specialty terms

more often than the generic and therefore hard to define term of sexology.

___________________________________________________________________

From: p.lincoln@att.net

Subject: Re: [histsex] Sexology

Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2000 01:52:06 +0000



Humbug -- from those who know better!

> Greetings,

>

> Recently I spent some time at the Kinsey Institute where it was pointed

> out to me in no uncertain terms that there is no such thing as a

> sexologist. There is no program of sexology, no degree in sexology,

> etc. Although I admit that I still use the term occasionally, and of

> course we historians all know what we mean when we say it, I thought I'd

> share with you this apparent irritant among "medical experts" who study

> sex.

___________________________________________________________________From: "Julie Cox" <jmcjls@earthlink.net>

Subject: Re: [histsex] sexology bibliographies?/sex in ancient Egypt

Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 20:40:23 -0700





> It just occurred to me that you might appreciate it if I posted my

> bibliography on sexology and its development the list? This would contain

> primary and secondary sources. Any thoughts?

YES PLEASE! (goodness I hope you haven't done so already. Thurs. is my long

day and I get to things so late.)

Julie Cox

___________________________________________________________________

From: "Thomas, Julie Lynn" <julthoma@indiana.edu>

Subject: RE: [histsex] Sexology and a question

Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 21:02:15 -0500



As someone who works at the Kinsey Institute (constructing finding aids for

the Kinsey archive), I must confess, I've never heard anyone in the

reference area state that there is no such thing as a sexologist. Perhaps

those conducting present research at the Institute don't refer to themselves

as sexologists.....

On another topic, as I continue my dissertation work on US sexologists in

the 1920s and 1930s, with a focus on those who traveled to the Soviet Union,

I am in search of a collection of Frederick Taussig's papers - especially

those relating to my topic, of course.... His text, _Abortion, Spontaneous

and Induced_ references his travels to the Soviet Union.

Thank you in advance!

Julie Thomas

Visiting Lecturer

Gender Studies

Indiana University Bloomington

julthoma@indiana.edu



**********************************************************************

"Bobby, if you're going to get fired, you should lay back and enjoy it'"*

Julie Thomas

Visiting Lecturer, Gender Studies

http://www.indiana.edu/~gens

* Bobby Knight to Connie Chung "If a woman is going to be raped, she should

lay back and enjoy it"

___________________________________________________________________From: <lesleyah@primex.co.uk>

Subject: RE: [histsex] a question

Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2000 08:50:38 GMT



Julie Thomas wrote:

> I am in search of a collection of Frederick

Taussig's papers - especially

> those relating to my topic, of course.... His text,

_Abortion, Spontaneous

> and Induced_ references his travels to the Soviet

Union.

I haven't come across Taussig's papers myself, but if

you haven't already, you might investigate the RL

Dickinson and Norman Himes papers in the Countway

Library to see if they had any correspondence with

him.

I'd be interested if you do come across any of his

papers - if you do, please could you let me know if he

had any contact with UK abortion law reformer FW

Stella Browne? Thanks

Lesley Hall

lesleyah@primex.co.uk



___________________________________________________________________

From: <lesleyah@primex.co.uk>

Subject: [histsex] Fwd: FitzGerald and Havelock Ellis

Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2000 08:54:06 GMT

The following query was posted to VICTORIA. In case

there are any Ellis experts on Histsex who are not

also subscribed to VICTORIA, I've forwarded it for the

benefit of their opinions.

Lesley Hall

lesleyah@primex.co.uk

Forwarded Message:

> To: VICTORIA@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU

> From: Sheldon Goldfarb <goldfarb@INTERCHANGE.UBC.CA>

> Subject: FitzGerald and Havelock Ellis

> Date: Thu, 26 Oct 2000 19:01:21 -0700

> -----

> In a rather eccentric 1949 study of Edward

FitzGerald, Peter de Polnay

> quotes Havelock Ellis as saying that "it is easy to

trace an element of

> homosexuality [in FitzGerald], though it appears

never to have reached full

> and conscious development."

>

> Not being of a scholarly persuasion, de Polnay does

not bother giving any

> citation. I am wondering if anyone knows where

Ellis wrote this. (There

> is more than just this sentence on FitzGerald: de

Polnay quotes a whole

> paragraph; perhaps there is even a whole article.)

>

> Thanks in advance. (This is for a DNB article on

FitzGerald.)

>

> Sheldon Goldfarb

> goldfarb@interchange.ubc.ca



___________________________________________________________________From: "Dalley-Crozier ,Dr Ivan" <i.dalley-crozier@wellcome.ac.uk>

Subject: RE: [histsex] Sexology

Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2000 10:28:48 +0100

I am not sure if I would say that historians of sex were a species of

sexologist: I spend all of my time at parties telling people I am NOT a

sexologist. And then they go and talk to someone else...

ijdc

============================================

Ivan Dalley Crozier,

i.dalley-crozier@wellcome.ac.uk

"An entertaining essay might perhaps be

written on the sexlessness of historians;

but it would be entertaining and nothing

more: we do not know enough either about

the historians or sex."

--Lytton Strachey, 1931

============================================

___________________________________________________________________

From: "Dalley-Crozier ,Dr Ivan" <i.dalley-crozier@wellcome.ac.uk>

Subject: RE: [histsex] "whinge" about voyeurism

Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2000 12:00:23 +0100

Dear Mike,

Me again...

The work of Kaja Silverman, as well as your own, sounds appealling: please

send refs. I have more specific comments on your "neo-natal thoughts". But

I like the lacanian aspects... very thought provoking.

When you wrote "To discuss male voyeurism as abnormal would be to reveal the

processes by which the Gaze is naturalized to men", I cannot help thinking

that you meant scopophila rather than voyeurism, but I would like you to

articualte why I am wrong. This is because I am considering voyeurism as a

sexological and psychoanalytic category, which is pathologised precisely in

order to prop up the norm, as you pointed out in true Canguilhem style! And

this brings me to my next point....

You wrote:

"As for voyeurism in Ancient Egypt and Rome, that presents a certain

methodological problem in the use of psychoanalysis. What must be weighed

are the explanatory values of psychoanalysis against the assumptions

inherent in its ahistorical application, i.e. are intra-psychic processes

universal or somehow inherent in human consciousness outside of history? By

separating scopophilia from voyeurism we might detach the hard-wired

cognitive process of 'pleasure gained though looking' from the historical

phenomenon of voyeurism as it encodes unequal relations of sex or gender (or

indeed race, ethnicity and class)? Perhaps the one structure has been

collapsed into the other but is not natural to it?"

Crozier writes:

In some ways, it is surely impossible to address Roman voyeurism as a

practice with psychoanalysis, surely, as there is the problem of the lack of

case material to properly analyse something... That is, we cannot get to a

ROman voyeur, just representations of them on Vases and the like, although

some of the insights derived from analytic speculation might be evocative.

Anyway, this is another issue (the efficacy of analysis of artefacts rather

than patients, assuming that patients are not artefacts: and I am not happy

to assume this).

But, my actual point is that when you are talking about voyeurism in the

Ancient world, it is necessarily a different thing to the psychoanalytic and

sexological category (or object) of voyeurism. There may well be the

'hard-wired' scopophilic reality, to be sure, but how do we get to that? If

we remove the analytic/sexological 'voyeur' frm this material reality, then

we sure replace it with another standpoint, like neurology or literary

criticism or such like? That is, one cannot get the ahhistorical view point

of which you write. This is not the least, as you suggest, because they are

encoded/encrypted in gender and sexual relations anyway, which are of course

culturally specific.

Still, thanks for the thought-provoking posting.

Cheerio, Ivan



___________________________________________________________________From: "Donna Larsen" <ladydonna85@hotmail.com>

Subject: Re: [histsex] Fwd: FitzGerald and Havelock Ellis

Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2000 14:36:55 GMT



What is VICTORIA?





___________________________________________________________________

From: <lesleyah@primex.co.uk>

Subject: Re: [histsex] Fwd: FitzGerald and Havelock Ellis

Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2000 14:57:48 GMT

> What is VICTORIA?

VICTORIA: The electronic conference for Victorian

Studies discussion list, details available at

http://www.indiana.edu/~victoria/discussion.html

Lesley Hall

lesleyah@primex.co.uk



___________________________________________________________________

From: <lesleyah@primex.co.uk>

Subject: Re: [histsex] listbot query

Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2000 15:02:39 GMT

Heather Lee Miller asked

> Could we get on H-Net?

It would certainly be wonderful to get on either H-Net

or the UK equivalent, mailbase. However, when I was

investigating mailbase at least at that time the list

owner had to be running the list from an ac.uk

address, and I suspect that the same would apply to

H-Net. I'll investigate further however. If anyone

know anything about the requirements and

practicalities, or has any experience of running lists

through either of them, I'd be pleased to hear from

them (though perhaps offlist would be best.)

Lesley Hall

lesleyah@primex.co.uk



___________________________________________________________________Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2000 10:19:11 -0700

From: Heather Lee Miller <miller.1438@osu.edu>

Subject: Re: [histsex] listbot query

Could we get on H-Net?

At 03:51 PM 10/26/2000 GMT, you wrote:

>Histsex:For historians of sexuality -

http://homepages.primex.co.uk/~lesleyah/listinf.htm

>

>> Is there a way to have histsex messages show up in

>digest form through

>> listbot? I've looked, and not found a way so far.

>>

>Sorry - a digest option is another thing that is not

>enabled in listbot. I'm still open to other

>suggestions for an alternative listserv.

>

>Lesley Hall

>lesleyah@primex.co.uk

___________________________________________________________________Subject: RE: [histsex] "whinge" about voyeurism

Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2000 10:44:50 -0500

From: "Michael J. Murphy" <mjmurphy@artsci.wustl.edu>



>Dear Mike,

>

>Me again...

>

>The work of Kaja Silverman, as well as your own, sounds appealling: please

>send refs.

Ivan did you ge tteh references I posted for Lesley? If not I'll sned

them to you privately.

>I have more specific comments on your "neo-natal thoughts". But

>I like the lacanian aspects... very thought provoking.

>

>When you wrote "To discuss male voyeurism as abnormal would be to reveal the

>processes by which the Gaze is naturalized to men", I cannot help thinking

>that you meant scopophila rather than voyeurism, but I would like you to

>articualte why I am wrong. This is because I am considering voyeurism as a

>sexological and psychoanalytic category, which is pathologised precisely in

>order to prop up the norm, as you pointed out in true Canguilhem style! And

>this brings me to my next point....

What I was trying to get at was that the pathologization of neurotic

voyeurism may actually work to sanction and thereby obscure a more

general male appropriation of the Gaze which (within its own patriarchal

ideology) does not cross some arbitrary line demarcating normal looking.

The notion of normal male scopophilia defined against abnormal voyeurism

might shelter the male appropriation of the Gaze against examination. In

other words, what part (if any) of scophophila is 'natural' to man and

what part has he thefted but characterized as 'natural'.

>You wrote:

>"As for voyeurism in Ancient Egypt and Rome, that presents a certain

>methodological problem in the use of psychoanalysis. What must be weighed

>are the explanatory values of psychoanalysis against the assumptions

>inherent in its ahistorical application, i.e. are intra-psychic processes

>universal or somehow inherent in human consciousness outside of history? By

>separating scopophilia from voyeurism we might detach the hard-wired

>cognitive process of 'pleasure gained though looking' from the historical

>phenomenon of voyeurism as it encodes unequal relations of sex or gender (or

>indeed race, ethnicity and class)? Perhaps the one structure has been

>collapsed into the other but is not natural to it?"

>

>Crozier writes:

>

>In some ways, it is surely impossible to address Roman voyeurism as a

>practice with psychoanalysis, surely, as there is the problem of the lack of

>case material to properly analyse something... That is, we cannot get to a

>ROman voyeur, just representations of them on Vases and the like, although

>some of the insights derived from analytic speculation might be evocative.

>Anyway, this is another issue (the efficacy of analysis of artefacts rather

>than patients, assuming that patients are not artefacts: and I am not happy

>to assume this).

But Ivan we have innumerable classical texts on which to rely. And within

Lacanian psychoanalysis representations are the key to subjectivity so

they'd be invaluable to a psychanalystic reading. Indeed Whitney Davis

has written psychanalytic histories of Ancient Egypt.

>But, my actual point is that when you are talking about voyeurism in the

>Ancient world, it is necessarily a different thing to the psychoanalytic and

>sexological category (or object) of voyeurism. There may well be the

>'hard-wired' scopophilic reality, to be sure, but how do we get to that? If

>we remove the analytic/sexological 'voyeur' frm this material reality, then

>we sure replace it with another standpoint, like neurology or literary

>criticism or such like? That is, one cannot get the ahhistorical view point

>of which you write. This is not the least, as you suggest, because they are

>encoded/encrypted in gender and sexual relations anyway, which are of course

>culturally specific.

Now here we have a problem which seems to parallel the list's earlier

extensive discussion of the application of the term homosexuality to

pre-modern times. Is psychoanalysis an historic artifact or a viable

analytical and descriptive system, or both? Or does the language of

psychoanalysis actually call into existence what it purports to merely

describe? Given the pressure applied to Freud and Lacan especially by

feminist critics I would think one would have to proceed with a

sophisticated understanding of the problems of psychoanalysis and not

just its usefulness.

To simply describe the Ancients as voyeurs would be unforgiveably crude,

and bad history to boot. But there seems to be some continuities with our

present, which is probably what attracts us to particular past moments in

the first place. So our task is to tease out the specific valences of

what seems familiar from the past without rewriting the past in the image

of the present. I see history to emerge from and serve the needs of the

present; a reordering of the past in a writing in the present. So as long

as psychoanalysis holds persuasive value for us I view it as a viable

historical methodology although one with numerous liabilities.

Mike



___________________________________________________________________

Subject: Re: [histsex] "whinge" about voyeurism

Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2000 10:44:49 -0500

From: "Michael J. Murphy" <mjmurphy@artsci.wustl.edu>

Hi Tim!

Yours is a good point. But I think I would argue that there aren't any

inherent consequences of either, as the object of visual inquiry tends to

react (or not act at all) in various ways: resistance, gratitude,

outrage, disbelief, solicitude, violation. But I think the tendency to

react as though one is violated stems from a knowledge that the viewer is

taking pleasure at the expense of the viewed. The exact nature, indeed

even existence, of that expense is arguable and certainly historically

variable. And of course the scrutinizing look which has appropriated the

Gaze often encodes more tangible social inequalities, and often precedes

actual physical interaction, like violence, rape or pelvic exams.

Mike



>Question for Michael J. Murphy re his proposal to distinguish

>"scopophilia" from "voyeurism": are the consequences different for the

>person being looked at?

>

>Tim Hodgdon

>Ph.D. candidate

>Department of History

>Arizona State University

>Tim.Hodgdon@asu.edu



___________________________________________________________________

Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2000 10:52:37 -0500

From: Gail Bederman <Gail.Bederman.1@nd.edu>

Subject: RE: [histsex] Sexology and a question

Re Taussig's papers:

I was researching Taussig's papers for awhile, although that project

is now back-burnered for awhile. I recall two things which might be

of interest:

First there are a lot of Taussigs in the St. Louis area who are

probably relations. You might well try to contact them and see

whether they have papers. (Taussig lived and died in St. Louis). You

can look them up at www.switchboard.com, or some similar website.

Second, Taussig's wife, Florece G. Taussig, was a very active member

of the Women's International League for Peace and Freedom (which may

well also have some bearing, in part, on Taussig's travels to the

USSR?) She has a number of letters in the Swarthmore College Peace

Collection. I believe she travelled with him to the Soviet Union,

though I'm not sure.

Question for you: Do you really think of Taussig as a sexologist? If so, why?

(Also, if you don't know Judith Allen, who teaches at Indiana

University in women's studies and history, you should certainly look

her up. She's working on Taussig too, I think, and is doing

brilliant stuff on Kinsey, Calderone, and others in that circle.)

Best,

Gail



>Histsex:For historians of sexuality -

>http://homepages.primex.co.uk/~lesleyah/listinf.htm

>

>

>As someone who works at the Kinsey Institute (constructing finding aids for

>the Kinsey archive), I must confess, I've never heard anyone in the

>reference area state that there is no such thing as a sexologist. Perhaps

>those conducting present research at the Institute don't refer to themselves

>as sexologists.....

>

>On another topic, as I continue my dissertation work on US sexologists in

>the 1920s and 1930s, with a focus on those who traveled to the Soviet Union,

>I am in search of a collection of Frederick Taussig's papers - especially

>those relating to my topic, of course.... His text, _Abortion, Spontaneous

>and Induced_ references his travels to the Soviet Union.

>

>Thank you in advance!

>

>Julie Thomas

>Visiting Lecturer

>Gender Studies

>Indiana University Bloomington

>julthoma@indiana.edu

>

>

>**********************************************************************

>

>"Bobby, if you're going to get fired, you should lay back and enjoy it'"*

>

>Julie Thomas

>Visiting Lecturer, Gender Studies

>http://www.indiana.edu/~gens

>

___________________________________________________________________

Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2000 11:00:26 -0500

From: David Nicholas Harley <David.N.Harley.4@nd.edu>

Subject: RE: [histsex] Sexology



Ivan wrote:

>I am not sure if I would say that historians of sex were a species of

>sexologist: I spend all of my time at parties telling people I am NOT a

>sexologist. And then they go and talk to someone else...

David Harley:

I dare say your wife is pleased by this refusal of yours to become a social

honeypot, but it might well be true to say that you are a "historical

sexologist", along the lines of being a historical demographer, for

example, were it not for the fact that you study intellectuals' ideas about

sex rather than actual social practices, insofar as they can be recovered

from the documents. Sex in the head rather than sex in the archives, as it

were.

Didn't somebody once say there was an interesting essay to be written about

the sexlessness of historians? A start has been made by Bonnie G.Smith, in

The Gender of History : Men, Women, and Historical Practice, 1998.



David Harley

Dept. of History

219 O'Shaughnessy

University of Notre Dame

Notre Dame IN 46556

219-631-7313



___________________________________________________________________

From: Kazetnik@aol.com

Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2000 12:12:34 EDT

Subject: Re: [histsex] listbot query

One possible is egroups, who do digests and web only/no mail options. Not

sure about their academic panache tho'....

Chris White



___________________________________________________________________

Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2000 11:47:42 -0500

From: David Nicholas Harley <David.N.Harley.4@nd.edu>

Subject: [histsex] Psychological explanation in history

Mike Murphy wrote, in reply to Ivan Crozier:

>Is psychoanalysis an historic artifact or a viable

>analytical and descriptive system, or both? Or does the language of

>psychoanalysis actually call into existence what it purports to merely

>describe?

David Harley:

Now here's a new question that we might fruitfully debate, perhaps starting

a new thread on the list. This is actually a problem with all forms of

psychological explanation deployed by historians, especially the "common

sense" folk psychology deployed unreflectively by empiricist historians.

Of course psychoanalysis is a historical artefact, like any other theory on

any topic. Moreover, it displays a "looping mechanism", as various writers

from Berger and Luckmann through to Ian Hacking have pointed out. That is

to say, ideas about emotions and states of mind form the material from

which we construct our personalities. Moderately literate people in the

late eighteenth century thought of themselves and their experiences in

terms of nervous sensibility, whereas in the early twentieth century they

started to think in terms of complexes and neuroses. Psychologists,

psychiatrists and psychoanalysts are not studying timeless forces but

historically located patients, so that those phenomena which Freud claimed

to have observed in fin de siecle Vienna have been generalized out to cover

all humans at all times, which seems to me, as a historian, rather

implausible. Did Cromagnons suffer from the Oedipus complex? For that

matter, did Oedipus?

Mike Murphy:

So our task is to tease out the specific valences of

>what seems familiar from the past without rewriting the past in the image

>of the present. I see history to emerge from and serve the needs of the

>present; a reordering of the past in a writing in the present.

David Harley:

Past as Same; Past as Different; Past as Analogous. These seem to be

fundamentally opposed ways of studying history, involving opposed epistemic

stances. The questions we ask are inevitably those of modern historians,

but how far our answers ought to be modern-minded is a moot point, and

rather depends upon our purposes. Rictor Norton would see this issue

rather differently from the way I do, I suspect. Like an anthropologist, I

look for and try to respect difference. Rictor's scholarship has a more

engaged manner.

Mike Murphy:

So as long

>as psychoanalysis holds persuasive value for us I view it as a viable

>historical methodology although one with numerous liabilities.

David Harley:

Anything can hold persuasive value for us, if we believe in it. We can

write Marxist histories of class conflict in Ancient Rome, if we choose to

ignore the historical specificity of class consciousness. We can write

psychiatric histories of the witchcraze, if we choose to ignore the

historical specificity of the ideas and emotions involved. As long as we

are convinced that our theory is "scientific", i.e. outside the realm of

history, we can apply it to any time and place we see fit.

The role of psychoanalytic theory in history surely lies within the realm

of epideictic rhetoric; it appeals to the shared values of believers.

These are people for whom psychoanalysis has some explanatory function

within their own personality development. In the United States, this

phenomenon is very widespread, partly because of the role of Hollywood in

popularizing semi-psychoanalytic explanation. I remain to be convinced of

its heuristic value for historians, not least because of its fundamentally

ahistorical character, which it shares with general psychology. My own

feeling is that social psychology and cultural psychology offer better

tools to consider the relationship between historical location and states

of mind.

Interestingly, when the late Nicholas Spanos praised John Demos's sound

social psychology over his more questionable application of Kleinian

psychoanalysis, in J. Hist. Behavioral Sci., Demos was utterly appalled.

Yet it is that aspect of Entertaining Satan that retains value today,

because it distorts the evidence less. Demos could not be satisfied with

merely explaining what could be found in the archives; he had to go

further, into the realm of the unconscious. Even if we suppose that such a

realm exists, we might reasonably doubt whether it is accessible to

historians.

David Harley

Dept. of History

219 O'Shaughnessy

University of Notre Dame

Notre Dame IN 46556

219-631-7313



___________________________________________________________________

From: "Liz" <history@sentex.net>

Subject: Re: [histsex] listbot query

Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2000 13:51:22 -0700

> One possible is egroups, who do digests and web only/no mail options. Not

> sure about their academic panache tho'....

They may lack panache but they sure as heck do a good job!

Liz

Elizabeth Waters Heinrichs

history@sentex.net



___________________________________________________________________

Subject: Re: [histsex] Psychological explanation in history

Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2000 17:17:25 -0500

From: "Michael J. Murphy" <mjmurphy@artsci.wustl.edu>

I have to confess that I was way out on a limb in my comments on

psychoanalysis and history which represented more of 'thinking out loud'

than any expertise. I gladly and with relief defer to David Harley's

erudite explication. My noodlings stem from recent concerns about the

historical limits of Lacan's theories of the gaze, the body, and

subjectivity which troublingly pretend to universality but might be

useful nevertheless as artifacts describing a particular moment in

history. Despite my comments on gaze theory in psychoanalysis I don't

really use it as a historical method since I'm more of a cultural studies

scholar than a historian per se.

Mike Murphy



___________________________________________________________________From: "Judith" <heyoka@snowcrest.net>

Subject: Re: [histsex] Sexology and a question

Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2000 06:23:06 -0700



Is there a digest version and how can I sign up for it?



judith

___________________________________________________________________

From: "Lesley Hall" <lesleyah@primex.co.uk>

Subject: Re: [histsex] Sexology and a question

Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2000 16:14:28 +0100



>Is there a digest version and how can I sign up for it?

As I think I responded to someone else earlier this week or possibly last,

listbot does not support digest messages, and that is one of the reasons I

have been asking for suggestions as to alternative hosts. (Though the one

list I used to be on which was in digest form - this was the deafult

setting - could get completely maddening

when people posted responses to a whole string of unsnipped previous

messages, which all got incorporated in the digest version, sometimes over

and over again....)

Lesley Hall

lesleyah@primex.co.uk

website http://homepages.primex.co.uk/~lesleyah



___________________________________________________________________

From: Kazetnik@aol.com

Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2000 12:52:36 EDT

Subject: Re: [histsex] listservers



Smartgroups.com does a nice, efficient service with the digest and web only

options.

CW



___________________________________________________________________Subject: [histsex] CFP: Queer Comics anthology

Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2000 17:17:25 -0500

From: "Michael J. Murphy" <mjmurphy@artsci.wustl.edu>



I'm reposting this again for any new subscribers. Anne and I are keen to

include an international perspective so proposals on European,

Hispanic/Latino/a, or African comics are especially encouraged. Please

forward to anyone (scholars or artists) you think might be interested.

Inquiries encouraged! Deadlines flexible!

*******Call For Manuscripts*********

Zap! Pow! Out!: Queer Cultures, Queering Comics

an anthology edited by

Anne N. Thalheimer and Michael J. Murphy

**Deadline for abstracts: 1 December 2000**

Submit a 1-2 page abstract and a short CV to each editor. Electronic or

hardcopy submissions accepted. No email attachments please.

**Deadline for manuscripts: 1 June 2001**

MLA citation style; one electronic or hardcopy to each editor- Word or

WordPerfect versions; please limit text to 25 pages; author responsible

for securing image copyright permissions.

To redress the paucity and disparate state of existing scholarship on

queer comics the editors of this scholarly anthology invite submissions

of original art, interviews, and critical essays on the cultures of gay,

lesbian, bisexual, transgendered and queer comics and related media. The

editors aim to unite the best classic artwork and essays with innovative

and exciting imagery and investigations into queer comic strips, comic

books, graphic novels, zines, manga, film or television anime/ation, and

other related graphic media. Essays which address trans/international

comics, race and hybridity, or queer spectator/readership are especially

encouraged.

Paper topics might include:

-queer (or queered) comics or artists

-gay or dyke comix

-queer comics readers, conventions or fans

-gay and lesbian super heroes: Wonder Woman and other Amazons

-original interviews with notable creators, readers, publishers

-HIV/AIDS or safer sex educative comics

-(anti)homophobia and/or heterosexism in comics

-graphic sex (literally) and pornographic comics

-relationship of queer comics to underground or wimmin¹s comix

-queers in straight comics (Doonesbury, For Better For Worse, The

Simpsons, etc.)

-sexual ambiguity and anonymity in comics

-transnational queer comix -gay liberation and comics

-queer creators, straight comics; vice versa

-race, class, gender, sexuality hybridities in comics

-comparative essays with television, film, art, advertising etc.

Que(e)ries?

Anne N. Thalheimer

Dept. English

212 Memorial Hall

University of Delaware

Newark, DE 19716

Fax: (302) 831 1586

motes@udel.edu



Michael J. Murphy

Dept. Art History/Archaeology

Steinberg Hall

Campus Box 1189

Washington University

St. Louis MO 63130

mjmurphy@artsci.wustl.edu



___________________________________________________________________From: "Thomas, Julie Lynn" <julthoma@indiana.edu>

Subject: RE: [histsex] Sexology and a question

Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2000 16:34:14 -0500



Dear Ms. Bederman:

Thank you for your reply!

Judith Allen is my dissertation advisor....I assisted her with research on

her next book _Kinsey's Women_, which led to the discovery of Kinsey

institute's archive AND my dissertation topic (as I read about sex research

in the Soviet Union [before Stalin] and US researchers invited to visit and

share information).

I don't really consider Taussig a sexologist...although I think his work

qualifies as "sexology". The reason for this is contextualization - I liken

it to not considering Mary Wollstonecraft a feminist since the term

"feminist" was not coined until later. Yet, I would consider her WRITING to

be feminist, since her ideas are read by feminists and cited as an example

of early feminist philosophy.

Thank you for your helpful advice on locating Taussig's papers...

Julie Thomas

___________________________________________________________________

From: Kazetnik@aol.com

Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2000 14:25:46 EDT

Subject: Re: [histsex] slippery sexuality

Hi [Mr/Ms] Jencks

Coming to this debate some belatedly, I've grabbed bits and pieces that

you've posted. I'd be very interested to have you clarify some of what you

assert.

<<10/26/00 jencks4@home.com

The Victorian Era had a big influence on the increase of child sexual abuse

that we've been experiencing this century. The Victorian Era taught

standards that women were supposed to be ignorant of sex. This led to the

notion that innocent women were sexier than experienced women. This led to

the notion that innocence is sexy and

of course, what could be more innocent than a prepubescent.>>

The fetish with innocence as erotic vastly pre-dates the 19th century,

although its content and ideological function shift over time. As a single

example, the lust for virgins that was so emphasised in 19th century porn is

in some ways a remaking of the belief (which dates at least from the 15th

century) that sex with a virgin would cure VD. In the 19th century it gets

dressed up in images of imperialism/colonialism (with attendant

dehumanisation), as well as wearing the clothes of the Child as a being

apart, untouched by human hand or mind. Thus innocence which guarantees

sexual untouchedness justifies the sexual desire for the innocent, whose

innocence is the binary opposite of guilty sin, and thus occupies the same

discursive space. Children are not different. They are just not adults. Yet.

<<jencks4@home.com writes: 10/26/00

I would only be interested in changing sexuality that is harmful such as child

abuse. Homosexuality is okay by me.>>

In the context of your research project as you have outlined it on the list,

is it helpful to begin with such assumptions? Child abuse is after all

culturally and historically specific, and therefore (nodding in Rictor's

direction) constructed. Is there (asks she, either in devil's advocate mode

or because she must always ask why) anything absolutely wrong with

intergenerational sex always? Can we imagine a culture in which

intergenerational sex would not be "child abuse"?

<<jencks4@home.com writes:10/27/00

The only problem is that a significant number (if not the majority) of

pedophiles also eroticize violence and/or manipulation. >>

Leaving aside the question-begging 'only problem', on what basis do you make

this assertion about paedophiles? An appeal to 'commonsense' seems embedded

in there somewhere.... And what is the connection between violence and

manipulation in the assertion?

Chris White



___________________________________________________________________

From: "Colin Shingleton" <cshingleton@bigpond.com>

Subject: [histsex] "Near Sex" again & "the active question "how do we come to terms with the myriad of sexual variations?"

Date: Sun, 29 Oct 2000 11:45:38 +1100

If I can go back to the old question, near sex, and to the newer question of

" the myriad of sexual variations?" just raised.:

Firstly I have had further thoughts on the term "Near sex" . It is a bad

term. It almost begs the question that some kind of penetration or climactic

experience is the goal of sex and any preparatory or other behaviour heading

in that direction is more or less near or not sexual.

Would it be that intention needs to be factored in somehow?

Even so how does that include one sided sex i.e. in the case of unwanted or

unacknowledged or unrecognised advance.

Then again there is the wanted-unwanted sexual experience i.e. masochistic

sex? In such cases does sexual intention to allow pain to oneself replace

consent which might by definition be absent from masochistic sex or might of

necessity be absent from masochistic sex?

And again when does the law have a right to enter or society a right to

legislate what two people do even when they are hurt? Does a lack of

preparedness to press charges imply consent? Does presenting charges in the

case of consentless sex mean that the aggrieved masochist didn't at some

level want the sexual damage done to him or her? Do we start from killing

as part of sex and work back to what is acceptable? Then do the laws

covering assault take over?

Secondly If the question is changed from identifying the myriad of sexual

variations or enumerating what counts as near sex which could include tying

a sandshoe lace and looked at characterising the contextualistaion of

intentional and unintentional sexual activity, we might be better placed to

study examples of sexual behaviour or kinds of sexual behaviour when our

agenda is to understand the legal moral normative etc implications of it.



___________________________________________________________________From: "Dalley-Crozier ,Dr Ivan" <i.dalley-crozier@wellcome.ac.uk>

Subject: RE: [histsex] Sexology

Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2000 12:50:49 +0100



Dear David,

Sorry, but I do not agree with your comments on historical sexology, as the

object of inquiry (in Ravetz's sense) of the sexologists whom I study is

sexual practice, where the object of inquiry for my own historical writing

is texts about sex. I really do not care if Freud's Wolf man or Ellis' Case

XXVII, or any of Krafft-Ebing's cases did not exist, and I am certainly not

particualrly interested in my interpretations of these characters (in any

professional sense, anyway). They are not my objects of inquiry, but I am

indeed interested in what Freud or Ellis or whoever said about these cases

and about other sexological texts. I realise that one cannot separate

knowledge from practice, and I am keenly interested in the practices used by

sexologists to write books about sex, but as far as my own practices go, I

am interested in how sexological ideas are formed, change, are negotiated

etc., and thus have to be reflective about my reading practices and about my

own historiographical premises... and not in whether the Wolf man really got

off over ideas about his cleaner's bum, pear-shaped or otherwise.

This, by the way, is different to that analogy with historical demography,

as both contemporary and historical demographers look at populations. Any

stories I get about sex I keep quiet about, unlike Ellis and Moll.... and if

I change my mind on this last point, if I do decide to go the lucrative

route and write up cases in a (pseudo-)sexological way, then I will not

become a real sexologist, but rather write under the usual formula: middle

name and street name. Just like the recent publication in 'Bizarre'

magazine by a certain Raymond Lavender, who is not a camp book-maker from

Brighton, but an important historian making a buck on a page about

Schreber.... There's a few good lunches and maybe a bottle of Belle Epoque

in a page in a popular mag, but not a cent from those toiled-over papers in

Social Hitory of Medicine, as you know all too well.

Cheerio, Ivan

============================================

Ivan Dalley Crozier,

i.dalley-crozier@wellcome.ac.uk

"An entertaining essay might perhaps be

written on the sexlessness of historians;

but it would be entertaining and nothing

more: we do not know enough either about

the historians or sex."

--Lytton Strachey, 1931

============================================

___________________________________________________________________From: "Jencks" <jencks4@home.com>

Subject: Re: [histsex] "Near Sex" again & "the active question "how do we come to terms with the myriad of sexual variations?"

Date: Sun, 29 Oct 2000 00:05:55 -0600

Great questions. And by the way, it is often more important to ask the

right questions than it is to answer the same old questions. Keep talking.

----- Original Message -----

From: Colin Shingleton <cshingleton@bigpond.com>

To: Histsex:For historians of sexuality <histsex@listbot.com>

Sent: Saturday, October 28, 2000 6:45 PM

Subject: [histsex] "Near Sex" again & "the active question "how do we come

to terms with the myriad of sexual variations?"



> Histsex:For historians of sexuality -

http://homepages.primex.co.uk/~lesleyah/listinf.htm

>

> If I can go back to the old question, near sex, and to the newer question

of

> " the myriad of sexual variations?" just raised.:

>

> Firstly I have had further thoughts on the term "Near sex" . It is a bad

> term. It almost begs the question that some kind of penetration or

climactic

> experience is the goal of sex and any preparatory or other behaviour

heading

> in that direction is more or less near or not sexual.

> Would it be that intention needs to be factored in somehow?

> Even so how does that include one sided sex i.e. in the case of unwanted

or

> unacknowledged or unrecognised advance.

> Then again there is the wanted-unwanted sexual experience i.e. masochistic

> sex? In such cases does sexual intention to allow pain to oneself replace

> consent which might by definition be absent from masochistic sex or might

of

> necessity be absent from masochistic sex?

> And again when does the law have a right to enter or society a right to

> legislate what two people do even when they are hurt? Does a lack of

> preparedness to press charges imply consent? Does presenting charges in

the

> case of consentless sex mean that the aggrieved masochist didn't at some

> level want the sexual damage done to him or her? Do we start from killing

> as part of sex and work back to what is acceptable? Then do the laws

> covering assault take over?

>

> Secondly If the question is changed from identifying the myriad of sexual

> variations or enumerating what counts as near sex which could include

tying

> a sandshoe lace and looked at characterising the contextualistaion of

> intentional and unintentional sexual activity, we might be better placed

to

> study examples of sexual behaviour or kinds of sexual behaviour when our

> agenda is to understand the legal moral normative etc implications of it.

___________________________________________________________________

From: Philip Stokes [mailto:philip.stokes@btinternet.com]

Sent: 30 October 2000 13:44

Subject: Re: [histsex] "whinge" about voyeurism

I would like to throw in Anthony Powell's novels "A Dance to the Music of

Time" as embodying a particularly rich and valuable meditation on voyeurism.

The principal focus comes in "Temporary Kings," where AP postulates a fresco

entitled "Candaules and Giges" by Tiepolo and depicting the progress of an

event, whereby Giges was invited by King Candaules to conceal himself in the

bedchamber and observe the Queen naked. The repercussions of that mythic

event and its densely woven reflection in the novel's world are brilliantly

drawn and well worthy of the attention of anyone with an interest in the

subject. There is also a good version in the form of a C4 TV film. By some

dreadful omission I have come late to Powell, but lately I have raged

through his work like a rabbit in a salad garden and now commend him

compulsively to any passing persons.

Regards,

Dr Philip Stokes

philip.stokes@btinternet.com

___________________________________________________________________

___________________________________________________________________

From: "Dalley-Crozier ,Dr Ivan" <i.dalley-crozier@wellcome.ac.uk>

Subject: RE: [histsex] "whinge" about voyeurism

Date: Mon, 30 Oct 2000 15:55:02 -0000



Of course, the original--or at least an early--discussion of "Candaules and

Giges" is in the first book of Herodotus, but the question remains, is this

voyeurism, or a matter of 'my woman is pretty cute, huh?'

ijdc

============================================

Ivan Dalley Crozier,

i.dalley-crozier@wellcome.ac.uk

"An entertaining essay might perhaps be

written on the sexlessness of historians;

but it would be entertaining and nothing

more: we do not know enough either about

the historians or sex."

--Lytton Strachey, 1931

============================================



-----Original Message-----

Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2000 10:07:48 -0500

From: pedst3+@pitt.edu

Subject: Re: [histsex] a review: Romanticism and the concept of queer genius

Dear list members,

I've recently reviewed Andrew Elfenbein's _Romantic Genius: The Prehistory

of a Homosexual Role_, which can be found online at

http://rmmla.wsu.edu/rmmla/ereview/54.2/reviews/dierkes.asp

I thought this might be of interest to some of you.

By way of a brief introduction: I'm a Ph.D. candidate in English/Film

Studies/Cultural Studies at the of Pittsburgh, where I am currently working

on a dissertation on 20th-century adaptations of Oscar Wilde's _Salome_ in

film, opera, and literature, preliminarily entitled "The Salome Theme in

the Wake of Oscar Wilde: Rhetorical Constructions of Woman in Modernity."

Part of my interest is Wilde as a cultural icon. My theoretical home is

Foucaultian feminism and queer theory.

Happy Halloween!

Petra Dierkes-Thrun



> Petra Dierkes-Thrun

> Ph.D. candidate

> Enmglish Department

> 526 Cathedral of Learning

> University of Pittsburgh

> Pittsburgh, PA 15260-0001

>



___________________________________________________________________From: MillerJimE@aol.com

Date: Tue, 31 Oct 2000 00:21:10 EST

Subject: Re: [histsex] "whinge" about voyeurism

i.dalley-crozier@wellcome.ac.uk writes:

<< Of course, the original--or at least an early--discussion of "Candaules

and

Giges" is in the first book of Herodotus, but the question remains, is this

voyeurism, or a matter of 'my woman is pretty cute, huh?' >>

But Gyges is carefully placed as a non-voyeur because he is under duress.

In fact, he is under duress twice, first the king forces him to watch the

wife then the wife forces him to kill the king. Instead the king is an

exhibitionist. He is not so much an exhibitionist of his own body but rather

that of his sexual partner and property -- his wife.

Voyeurism and exhibitionism both depend on a certain level of illicitness

in the viewing. In voyeurism the viewer sees what is not to be seen. In

exhibitionism the viewed displays what is not to be seen. The viewing is

still illicit, but the illicitness is transgressed by the displayer rather

than the viewer.

Jim Miller

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