HISTSEX ARCHIVES: February 2001
© Lesley Hall and list contributors
Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 09:03:36 -0500 (EST)
From: Elise R Chenier <3erc3@qlink.queensu.ca>
Subject: [histsex] FINAL NOTICE Micheal Lynch Grant
Please note that applications for the Michael Lynch Grant are
due February 15, 2001.
Print and post, tell your class and forward to your friends! Your
support for this important award is greatly appreciated.
Elise Chenier, Grant Coordinator
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Applications for the 2001 Michael Lynch Grant in Queer History are now
being sought.
The $1,500 grant is awarded by the Toronto Centre for Lesbian and Gay
Studies in conjunction with the Sexual Diversity Studies Program at the
University of Toronto, and is open to individuals, groups, and
organizations. Submitted porposals will be reviewed by an award selection
committee comprised of lesbian and gay historians. Final approval of the
grant will be made by the board of the TCLGS based on the recommendations
of the awards committee.
The first Michael Lynch History Grant was awarded to support the
development of a panel on the 20 year history of lesbian and gay student
activism in Montreal universities, the results of which were presented at
the November 1992 La Ville en Rose Conference in Montreal. Other
recipients include Kush, a South Asian LGBT group based in Toronto, and
Robin Metcalfe, who produced a slide show history of gay life in Halifax.
The grant is named for Michael Lynch, the late University of Toronto
English professor, long-time gay and AIDS activist, and founder of the
TCLGS. It is intended to support and encourage ambitious, in-depth history
research projects by academic and community researchers.
For more information about the Michael Lynch Grant, contact Elise Chenier
at 3erc3@qlink.queensu.ca or write us at the below address
The Grant is not retroactive and must be used for the creation of new
work. Projects must either commence or be in progress in 2001.
Projects must contribute to an understanding of the historical development
of lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgendered sexualities, identities,
politics, and communities in Canada. Top priority will be given to
projects that reflect the racial, cultural, linguistic, class or other
differences which make up queer historical experience.
Projects may take any of the following formats: slide show, workshop,
conference, oral history project, art exhibit, popular or academic
article, pamphlet or book. Alternative formats are encouraged and
welcomed.
Applicants are asked to submit:
a) a three-page outline of their project, describing its scope, objectives
and intended audience.
b) an overall budget highlighting those expenditures for which the grant
will be utilized. The budget should also include information on other
grants received or expected, if applicable.
c) a brief resume highlighting the applicant's qualifications and
experience in the proposed field.
Applications may be in French or English, and should be mailed to: The
Michael Lynch History Grant, c/o Professor Maureen Fitzgerald,
Director, Sexual Diversity Studies Program,
University College, 15 King's College Circle, University of Toronto,
Toronto, ON M5S 3H7
Applications must be received no later than 15 February 2001. Results to
be announced April 2001.
___________________________________________________________________From: Mal123nash@aol.com
Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 10:39:23 EST
Subject: [histsex] Ulrichs' street sign unlawfully removed
A street sign honoring Karl Heinrich Ulrichs, the first known Gay activist,
was removed in the dead of night by police in Hildesheim, Germany. For
details of the event, please see:
http://www.angelfire.com/fl3/celebration2000/hildeseng.html
With best wishes,
Mike (and Paul)
http://www.angelfire.com/fl3/celebration2000/memory.html
<A HREF="http://www.angelfire.com/fl3/celebration2000/memory.html">Karl Heinrich Ulrichs: MEMORY BOOK 2000</A>
PS. Your entry in Karl's Guest Book would be greatly appreciated!
___________________________________________________________________
Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2001 10:40:20 -0500
From: JILL SHEARER <JAZZ32@GTE.NET>
Subject: [histsex] Homosexual Man In mid-1800's England
Hi,
I've got a question for this list. I'm sure one of you knows the
answer!
In my current manuscript, a secondary character (male) is homosexual.
There is nothing stereotypical about him -- but I need some slang and/or
derogatory terms that others might use, when describing him, that are
true to the period.
Thanks for your help!
Jill Shearer
Jazz32@gte.net
___________________________________________________________________
From: Europamoon7@aol.com
Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 11:03:15 EST
Subject: Re: [histsex] Homosexual Man In mid-1800's England
What period?
___________________________________________________________________
Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2001 11:02:18 -0500
From: JILL SHEARER <JAZZ32@GTE.NET>
Subject: Re: [histsex] Homosexual Man In mid-1800's England
1840's, 1850's? England... St. Leonards by Sea, to be exact! :-)
Jill
___________________________________________________________________From: "Lesley Hall" <lesleyah@primex.co.uk>
Subject: [histsex] Review of interest
Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2001 18:51:53 -0000
H-NET BOOK REVIEW
Published by H-Women@h-net.msu.edu (January, 2001)
Siobhan B. Somerville. _Queering the Color Line: Race and the
Invention of Homosexuality in American Culture_. Durham, N.C.
and London: Duke University Press, 2000. xi + 176 pp. Appendix,
notes, bibliography, and index. $49.95 (cloth) ISBN
0-8223-2407-5; $17.95 (paper) ISBN 0-8223-2443-1.
Reviewed for H-Women by Julian B. Carter
<jcarter@leland.stanford.edu>, Stanford University, Introduction
to the Humanities Program.
Queering Disciplinary Boundaries
_Queering the Color Line_ sets out to correct what Somerville
identifies as a persistent and regrettable tendency for
contemporary Americans to think about race and sexuality as
fundamentally different analytic categories. This tendency, she
argues, has its origin in the historical processes through which
modern conceptions of homosexuality developed in concert with
late nineteenth century discourses on race. By tracing the
historical interdependence of both scientific and popular
theories of race and sexuality, Somerville accomplishes two
significant goals. First, she demonstrates the value of
queer-studies perspectives for interpreting texts previously
analyzed primarily through the lens of race. Similarly, she
shows that works previously treated as sources for the history
of sexuality are illuminated by critical attention to the way
they mobilize contemporary discourses of racialization. Second,
she identifies a historical shift from a cultural system that
relied on physical traits to differentiate people from one
another, to a more modern one which focused on desire as the
most meaningful axis of difference.
In the opening chapter Somerville spells out the connection
between racial and sexual science in the late nineteenth and
early twentieth centuries. She argues that sexological
descriptions of the "invert," a sexually intermediate type
halfway between "pure" male and "pure" female, drew upon the
methods and conclusions that racial science had mobilized in its
descriptions of mulattos and other "half-breeds." By the 1920s,
however, the model of gender inversion had been replaced by a
new model of homosexuality. This new model had no room for
intermediate types; instead, it worked through a logic of
polarized sexual difference, in which men were men and women
were women. The homosexual thus came into being as a person who
desired a member of his or her "own" sex.
Somerville argues that this new polarization of bodies and focus
on desires reflected a similar, simultaneous shift in racial
thinking. Over the same time period, the cultural figure of the
mulatto gave way to a new vision of the races as natural
opposites, and increasing numbers of legal and social mechanisms
were put into place to prevent people of different races from
having sex with one another. Thus the emergence of new sexual
categories mirrored, and was profoundly influenced by, the
hardening of the "color line," the stark division of Americans
into strictly segregated categories of "black" and "white."
Chapter Two, "The Queer Career of Jim Crow," turns from the
elite discourses of science and law to the popular cultures of
race and sex depicted in silent films. This chapter addresses
the 1914 Vitagraph film "A Florida Enchantment," which previous
scholars have interpreted as a witty and lighthearted
representation of gender fluidity and lesbian desire. In
Somerville's hands, however, the movie documents the intentional
erasure of its legacy of racial violence and economic
exploitation. This legacy, she shows, structured not only the
plot of the novel from which the screenplay was taken, but also
the Florida film industry of which Vitagraph was a part.
Debarred from participating in either sexology or the film
industry, African-American women often used fiction as a venue
for articulating their thoughts and beliefs about race, gender
and sexuality. Chapter Three explores Pauline E. Hopkins' novels
_Contending Forces_ and _Winona_, arguing that the barely
articulated homoeroticism of both novels "circulates as part of
Hopkins' exploration of the barriers to desire imposed by the
color line" (p. 11). Chapter Four continues this argument in the
context of James Weldon Johnson's famous _Autobiography of an
Ex-Colored Man_. Though the _Autobiography_ has often been read
as its author described it-the story of "some colored man who
had married white" (p. 111)-Somerville demonstrates that it is
also a story about the sexual fluidity of a man who lives in
motion across the boundaries his culture insists are solid and
impermeable. Finally, Chapter Five examines Jean Toomer's more
radical "racial disidentification" (p. 130), that is, his
refusal to take part in the cultural fiction of firmly bounded
races.
While the first two chapters examine the historical intersection
of race and sexuality in the nascent cultural institutions of
sexology and cinema, the following three perform close readings
of works by canonical African-American writers. Although each
chapter contributes to the larger argument, the way Somerville
shifts focus between the first and second halves of the book
sometimes obscures the relationship of the parts to the whole.
This presents a problem for the part of Somerville's project
aimed at persuading readers of the value of merging the
conventional strategies and interests of queer historical
studies with African-American literary and cultural studies.
Certainly each chapter demonstrates the value of sexual
interpretation of racialized subjects, and vice versa; yet the
difference between the text-centered analyses and context-driven
historical interpretations remains striking.
Admittedly this difference is partly stylistic, but it also
reflects the fact that Somerville's historical argument about
the shift from bodies to desires fades from the center of
analysis after the second chapter. In fact, chapters three
through five seem to suggest that both systems of
differentiation and classification remained in play for some
time. Therefore, the change she describes might best be thought
of as an "uneven d evelopment," to borrow Mary Poovey's phrase
about the changing ideologies of gender in Victorian Britain
[1]. When historical change is viewed in this light, the
question of causality must arise--why set these developments in
racial/sexual discourse in motion, and what sorts of factors
governed the pace and extent to which they were adopted or
explored by ordinary Americans? Somerville's answer to the first
question is a brief reference to Gilded Age whites' perceptions
that their political dominance over the nation was in peril.
While this seems reasonably accurate as an observation about the
political life of the late nineteenth and early twentieth
centuries, it is thin as an explanation for dramatic shifts in
the organization of both racial and sexual thought. Neither does
it speak directly to the question of why her three authors
mobilized the culturally-available variants of racialized and
sexualized humanity in such fascinatingly different ways. Thus
historians are likely to see weaknesses in _Queering the Color
Line_ that will probably not bother literary scholars to any
significant degree: and that difference suggests that the work
has not quite achieved its goal of modeling a satisfyingly
interdisciplinary cultural scholarship.
In the first chapter, where Somerville sets the stage for the
argument of the book as a whole, her discussion of the
nineteenth-century tendency to think about both race and sex in
terms of mixture rests in part on her interpretation of sexual
hierarchies as analogues to racial ones. She argues that
mulattos and "intermediate" sexual types occupied similar
conceptual spaces, in part because emergent theories of
sexuality drew on existing theories of race. But some of the
quotations she offers as evidence of this borrowing refer to a
hierarchy of races that did not, in fact, work according to the
logic of mixture (p. 32). In such hierarchies, white Europeans,
red Native Americans, yellow Asians, tawny Polynesians, and
black Africans were all understood as "pure" racial types. It is
true that the "reds," "yellows," and "tawnys" were often
represented as "between" whites and blacks in terms of physical
beauty and the achievements of their civilizations, yet their
"intermediate" status was not understood to derive from any
mixture of the extremes between which they stood: such people
were not "biracial," as Somerville suggests (p. 32). This
raises the question of whether the "intermediate sex" might not
have been constructed as an equally "pure" type. If it was not,
the parallelism between the logics of sexual and racial
classification was less consistent that Somerville argues. It
therefore seems possible that Somerville's argument about
mediation and mixture rests on a simplified understanding of the
multiple structures according to which nineteenth-century racial
science assigned value to different peoples and cultures.
To be fair, Somerville's focus on "race" is explicitly limited
to discussions of the conceptual and social relationships
between white and black Americans (p. 13); her lack of attention
to the "reds" and "yellows" probably stems at least as much
from her choice about where to set the boundaries of her study
as it does from inattention to the Byzantine convolutions of the
history of racialist thought. Yet her occlusion of those
not-quite-intermediate races has consequences in the way she
reads two of the novels that provide the basis for the second
half of the book. In one, Pauline Hopkins' _Winona_, the mulatto
heroine is introduced in terms that make her sound like a
character from _Hiawatha_: she has brown braids and trails her
slim brown hand over the side of her canoe (p.100-101).
Somerville's very interesting discussion of Winona's adventures
in blackface and male attire focuses on the way that her
Blackening makes her homoerotic romance with a white man
possible. When Winona puts on the makeup that renders her light
skin more visibly mulatto, she also puts on a highly eroticized
gender ambiguity, so that she passes for "the prettiest specimen
of boyhood" her white friend has even seen (p. 102).
Somerville shows that the love and desire between Winona and her
white friend are enabled by the complementary fictions of racial
difference and sexual sameness. Yet surely it is important that
Hopkins' narrative of racial and sexual transition and illusion
is generated precisely by means of the contrast between the
natural purity of the apparently Seneca maiden and the sexuality
associated with Blackness, and especially with Black
masculinity. Similarly, Somerville performs a sensitive reading
of a pivotal scene in Jean Toomer's short story "Withered Skin
of Berries." In this scene, a mulatto man who is passing for
white calls himself an "Indian" as part of his effort to
convince his homophobic, football-playing white friend that it
is safe to give way to the desire between them (pp. 147-148).
Somerville describes this scene as one in which "the black-white
dichotomy is displaced onto an Indian/white axis" (p. 147). But
while Somerville is convincing about the way that the desire
between these two men is enabled by the perception that they are
of different races, her interpretation does not explain the way
in which this scene depicts Native American bodies as
importantly outside the economy of race and sexuality that
governs relationships between whites and blacks. In both of
these instances, Somerville's comparatively thin treatment of
races which are neither white nor black limits her analysis; and
the thinness of this treatment ultimately derives not only from
the way she has defined her subject matter, but also from the
way in which she reduces nineteenth-century racial hierarchies
to the relationships between whites, Blacks, and their "mixed"
mulatto offspring.
Despite these reservations, in the last chapter Somerville does
succeed at modeling a highly fruitful multidisciplinary
approach. Here Somerville asks, and answers, challenging
theoretical questions about the relationship between racial and
sexual discourse for the present as well as for the past. Her
chapter on Jean Toomer, "'Queer to Myself as I Am To You,'"
offers a highly convincing account of Toomer's fascination with
the word "queer." She demonstrates that he used the term as a
sign for both sexual and racial ambiguity; at the same time,
Somerville emphasizes our scholarly stakes in making this case,
and asks us to think about the relationship between our
contemporary concerns and those of the historical subjects we
study. The result is a breathtaking reassessment of Toomer's
refusal to identify himself as African-American-a refusal which
Somerville sees not as a repudiation of his "real" race but
rather as a refusal to live, or to write, as though racial and
sexual identities were solidly factual, unchanging conditions of
human being. In sum, though _Queering the Color Line_ has some
of the weaknesses characteristic of ambitious first books, it is
a rewarding and valuable addition to the growing literature
exploring the relationship between race and sexuality in
American culture.
Copyright (c) 2001 by H-Net, all rights reserved. This work
may be copied for non-profit educational use if proper credit
is given to the author and the list. For other permission,
please contact H-Net@h-net.msu.edu.
Lesley Hall
lesleyah@primex.co.uk
website http://homepages.primex.co.uk/~lesleyah
___________________________________________________________________Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2001 15:02:37 -0800
From: Jack Kolb <kolb@ucla.edu>
Subject: [histsex] Fwd: Oscar Wilde Commemorations
>Date: Fri, 02 Feb 2001 13:55:25 -0500
>From: Marilyn Bisch <hubisch@scifac.indstate.edu>
>Subject: Oscar Wilde Commemorations
-----------------------------
>Oscar Wilde Centenary Celebration in Terre Haute
>>Merlin Holland, only grandson of the Irish poet, playwright, and wit,
>Oscar Wilde, will give a special lecture on Wilde's life and work at 7
>p.m., Thursday, February 8, in Dede I, Hulman Memorial Student Union,
>Indiana State University. An informal reception with Mr. Holland will
>follow in Dede I.
>>Mr. Holland will also take part in a galley panel discussion on
>American art and the Aesthetic movement to be held at the Swope Art
>Museum, South 7th St., in Terre Haute, 3:00 - 4:00 p.m. on February
>8. Other panelists will be Graeme Reid, curator of the Greater
>Lafayette Art Museum, and Laurette McCarthy, curator of American art
>at the Swope.
>>Both events are free and open to the public.
>>For more information, email hujenn@scifac.indstate.edu,
>telephone Marilyn Bisch, 237-8272, or visit
>http://Oscar100.20m.com/indiana.htm
___________________________________________________________________From: "Peter Boston" <peterboston@paradise.net.nz>
Subject: [histsex] Trephining
Date: Tue, 6 Feb 2001 13:06:44 +1300
Can any list member suggest a history dealing with trephining? In 1917 New
Zealand penal officials authorised such an operation on a young man
convicted for attempted murder. Medical opinion attributed his problems to
masturbation, and the case had some influence on the castration of four
sexual offenders within the penal system a few years later.
Thanks
Peter
___________________________________________________________________Date: Thu, 8 Feb 2001 16:22:24 +0000
From: Phil Hubbard <P.J.Hubbard@lboro.ac.uk>
Subject: [histsex] research opportunities
Apologies for cross-postings, but this may be of interest to some. Please
draw to attention of any suitably-qualified undergraduate or Masters
students you know who may be interested in studying geographies/histories
of sexuality. Thanks!
LOUGHBOOUGH UNIVERSITY
FACULTY OF SOCIAL SCIENCES AND HUMANITIES
POSTGRADUATE STUDENTSHIPS 2001
Applications are invited for 9 full studentships (ú9,540 per annum to pay
fees and support) and 6 ordinary studentships (ú2740 to pay EU fees only)
for students interested in pursuing PhD research in departments across the
Social Sciences and Humanities, including the Department of Geography
These studentships are awarded on a competitive basis, but the Department
of Geography will particularly support applications which are relevant to
its recognised research strengths, which includes research into geographies
of sexuality, prostitution and motherhood. Possible projects here might
include The Changing Geographies of Sex Education, The Health and Safety of
on-street and off-street Prostitutes, the Stigmatisation of Lone Motherhood
in the Twentieth Century or the Impacts of Regulation on the Sale and
Display of Pronography
In addition, the Department will be awarding a further six bursaries to
those unsuccessful in this Faculty competition but wishing to pursue
MPhil/PhD research. Again, these will be allocated on a competitive basis.
For further information and application forms please contact Denise Lawton,
c/o Loughborough University, School of Art and Design, Loughborough LE11
3TU Phone: 01509 228906 Fax: 01509 228902 E-mail d.p.lawton@lboro.ac.uk.
All applications to be received by 9 March 2001.
All candidates are encouraged to contact Dr Phil Hubbard or Dr Sarah
Holloway to discuss any research ideas in advance of their application
Phil Hubbard
Lecturer in Human Geography
Loughborough University
Leicestershire LE11 3TU
(01509) 222747
http://www.lboro.ac.uk/departments/gy/gypjh/Index.html
___________________________________________________________________
From: "Greg Reeder" <reeder@sirius.com>
Subject: [histsex] Ancient Egyptian Same -Sex Desire: Lecture UC Berkeley
Date: Fri, 9 Feb 2001 14:08:49 -0800
For those of you in Northern California I will be speaking Sunday, February
25th, 2:30 P.M. on the U.C. Berkeley Campus in room 2040 Valley Life Science
Building, sponsored by the American Research Center in Egypt / Northern
California Chapter ( see http://hometown.aol.com/hebsed/lectures.htm
for ARCE Northern California Chapter
contact information.)
Most of the presentation will be from my recently published paper "Same-sex
desire, conjugal constructs, and the tomb of Niankhkhnum and Khnumhotep" in
the journal World Archaeology Volume 32 Number 2, Oct 2000. ( Editor Thomas
A. Dowson .) Please feel free to pass this information on to your
colleagues.
Greg Reeder
reeder@sirius.com
http://www.egyptology.com/niankhkhnum_khnumhotep/
___________________________________________________________________
From: "Lesley Hall" <lesleyah@primex.co.uk>
Subject: [histsex] Fw: Pleasure - Victorian Style <adult>
Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 17:35:14 -0000
See below. For general amusement, but also to see if anyone can say where
these come from. I can identify the source of one or two of these (at least
one is Frank Harris), but I am sure there are listmembers out there who can
reach a better score...
Lesley Hall
lesleyah@primex.co.uk
website http://homepages.primex.co.uk/~lesleyah
-----Original Message-----
From: Jack Kolb <kolb@UCLA.EDU>
To: VICTORIA@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU <VICTORIA@LISTSERV.INDIANA.EDU>
Date: 09 February 2001 09:25
Subject: Pleasure - Victorian Style <adult>
>[forwarded by Paul Benoit. JK]
>>>The amorous utterings of a bygone day...
>> -------------
>Touch my vitals quickly, lest I die!
>Again my darling, my time is near!
> -------------
>You bewitching vision, you have stolen my heart,
>my soul, my spunk!
> -------------
>Ah, let your fingers play and twine in the young tendrils
>of silky down that cover'd the very seat of my womanhood!
> -------------
>Oh! Oh, it is too much, I am going... O!
> -------------
>Strike me sharply Emil, afore I think you effeminate!
> -------------
>I am stir'd beyond bearing with your furious agitation's
>within me, gorged and cramm'd, even to surfeit!
> -------------
>Oh, insupportable delight! Oh! Superhuman rapture!
> -------------
>Pray, allow me to feast my eyes with the touch and perusal,
>feast my lips with kisses of the highest relish!
> -------------
>I can feel your prodigious engine stirring in the very
>centre of my vitals!
> -------------
>Your lascivious touches have lighted up a new fire
>that wanton'd through all my veins!
> -------------
>You have slain me! No attacker's spear could strike me down
>as thoroughly as your sweet actions! I am spent, and may greet
>St. Peter with a tired grin.
> -------------
>Please sir, I beg you! Ease back your attack so that I may
>compose myself to compass the admission of that stupendous
>head of your machine!
> -------------
>You darling, darling! You wield that cane as if
>to the manor born!
> -------------
>My life! My soul! The springs of pleasure are wound
>to such a pitch that I cannot help but succumb to ecstacy!
> -------------
>What floods of bliss! What melting transports!
>What agonies of delight!
> -------------
>You must not think to hide your treasures from my gaze -
>my sight must be feasted, as well as my touch!
> -------------
>I melt! I die!
> -------------
>Ah! your irresistible thrust has murdered at once my maidenhead,
>and very nearly me!
> -------------
>These fleshly orbs shake with undisguised pleasure!
> -------------
>I am spending! I am spending! I spend! I die!
> -------------
>Redouble the active energy of your thrusts,
>lest I die from my own inflamed appetites!
> -------------
>Let me touch your breasts, finely plumped in flesh
>but withal so round, so firm!
> -------------
>Alas! that these delights should be no longer-lived!
> -------------
>Your lips pursue me, so that I cannot escape
>from kissing them in purest self-defense!
> -------------
>The powerful cunt! whose very name kindles in me
>an amorous flame!
> -------------
>You have caused me to suffer a pleasure that transports me
>to the land I knew not but dreamed of unawares!
> -------------
>Ah! hurt me now, or I'll bite you!
> -------------
>Oh Sir! . . . Good Sir! . . . pray do not spare me! ah! ah!
> -------------
>Quickly, my love! These bonds excite me to a fever's pitch
>but I fear me that the Lady will soon be wanting her petticoats back!
> -------------
>What joy inexpressible! My joy is lost in a sea
>of greater bliss than I have ever known!
> -------------
>>>from: Victorian Sex Cry Generator
> http://www.hootisland.com/stuff/index.shtml
>>>**********************
>You are a naughty girl! Go to my room!!
>
___________________________________________________________________From: "Lesley Hall" <lesleyah@primex.co.uk>
Subject: [histsex] 'Advent of the orgasmotron'
Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 17:32:01 -0000
For the information and delectation of the list:
'American doctors claim to have developed an electronic device that allows
women to have an orgasm at the flick of a switch.'
http://www.guardian.co.uk/Archive/Article/0,4273,4133680,00.html
There are 2 things that particularly interest me about this phenomenon.
1)The mention that the dr was stimulating the third sacral nerve in the
lower spine area. When I was a young thing, I recall a story circulating
that a woman could be given an orgasm by touching her on a certain spot on
her spine. I have since relegated this to the pile of 'urban legends about
sex: subsection: infallible ways to turn a woman on/give her an orgasm'.
Does anyone else remember this (I'm sure I recollect literary references
here and there, though possibly in the context of weird teenage theories
about sex, like the contraceptive tips being swapped in _Here we go round
the mulberry bush_ between the narrator and his mates). Does it have any
validity? (there might well be differences between any kind of tactile
stimulation and electronic means)
2) The hint of 'rationing' the no of orgasms a woman might have with this
device. Raises 2 thoughts for me a) the theory of (I think) Mary-Jane
Scherfey that back in Ye Olde Primeval Times all women regularly had
multiple orgasms and that they had to give this up in order that
civilisation could develop - I am probably vastly oversimplifying, if not
wholly distorting, what was I am sure a much more subtle and complex
argument b) which sort of leads to the second, that there seems to be some
kind of fear that if women _could_ be having orgasms all the time, they
_would_ be doing so. While I can certainly see having orgasms as more
desirable than e.g. doing the ironing, I can think of other things which
might hit the same level, or at times even a higher, on the felicific
calculus scale.
Thoughts, comments, input anybody?
Lesley Hall
lesleyah@primex.co.uk
website http://homepages.primex.co.uk/~lesleyah
___________________________________________________________________Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 13:27:47 -0500
From: Barbara Marshall <bmarshall@trentu.ca>
Subject: RE: [histsex] 'Advent of the orgasmotron'
Here is another story on the 'orgasmotron'.
http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2001/02/08/MN44535.DTL&nl=fix
This one raises three other interesting issues: 1) that the use of the
device is firmly located within 'having sex as usual' (ie. intercourse) and
then pushing the button at the appropriate time to trigger her orgasm, 2)
that this would 'train' the woman to have the appropriate response, and 3)
the question of whether or not insurance companies would pay for it.
I'm currently doing some research on sexual technologies, and there are some
parallels here to the EROS-CTD -- 'the first FDA approved treatment for
Female Sexual Dysfunction' -- which hit the US market last year. This is a
small, battery powered suction device which 'dysfunctional' women are
supposed to use on their clitoris before intercourse to increase
engorgement. The 'CTD' stands for 'Clitoral THERAPY Device' (my emphasis!),
and it, too, is framed as a sort of remedial therapy that will 'train' the
appropriate response over time. In both these cases, the devices are clearly
distinguished from 'sex toys' that might be used for solitary or
other-than-heterosexual-intercourse pleasure, and at least in the case of
the EROS-CTD, are priced accordingly (US$350+ on prescription). Once defined
as a medical treatment for a clinical disorder, claims can then be made on
insurers. I can't imagine that the 'orgasmotron', given that it would need
to be surgically implanted, would not also follow the medicalization,
'therapy/training' route, with the same sort of moral/economic segmentation
of markets.
While I'm on the topic, if anyone on the list has suggestions re: other
mechanical therapies and the boundary-work involved in distinguishing
legitimate 'medical' devices from 'sex toys', I'd appreciate it. Most of
what I've uncovered has (not surprisingly) been of the erection-enhancing
genre (eg. the Coital Training Apparatus).
Barb.
*****************
Barbara L. Marshall
Associate Professor, Sociology and Women's Studies
Trent University
Peterborough, ON Canada K9J 7B8
www.trentu.ca/sociology/bmarshall
___________________________________________________________________Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 10:58:13 -0800
From: "Dr. David Hersh" <Dr_Sex@netidea.com>
Subject: RE: [histsex] 'Advent of the orgasmotron'
At 01:27 PM 2/10/2001 -0500, Barb Marshall wrote:
>...the EROS-CTD -- 'the first FDA approved treatment for
>Female Sexual Dysfunction' -- which hit the US market last year. This is a
>small, battery powered suction device which 'dysfunctional' women are
>supposed to use on their clitoris before intercourse to increase
>engorgement. The 'CTD' stands for 'Clitoral THERAPY Device' (my emphasis!),
>and it, too, is framed as a sort of remedial therapy that will 'train' the
>appropriate response over time. In both these cases, the devices are clearly
>distinguished from 'sex toys' that might be used for solitary or
>other-than-heterosexual-intercourse pleasure, and at least in the case of
>the EROS-CTD, are priced accordingly (US$350+ on prescription).
It is my understanding from a physician I know (who is on this list) that
this device was approved by FDA with a sample of only 25 women. I have
seen and observed its use on two women. I found that the device is a
cheaply constructed, battery operated device that once shut off, the
suctions ceases. As a matter of fact, it looks like a cheap quality, Doc
Johnson sex toy. For those people interested in the topic of "pumping" or
increasing blood supply to the clitoris, there are many quality devices
that do the same thing and have cylinders that stay on once the suction
stops. For example, and without prescription, a good quality, mechanical
"pumping" device ($40) with an appropriate clitoral cylinder ($42) is
available from Good Vibrations in San Francisco. "Pumping" is a sexual
activity about which there is information online. To waste money on the
EROS-CTD is simply foolish.
David
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
David S. Hersh, Ed.D., FAACS Clinical Sexologist
Personal Website http://Doctor-Sex.org
"Sexology NetLine" http://www.netidea.com/sexologynetline/
Nelson, BC - Planned Parenthood http://www.netidea.com/npp/
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
___________________________________________________________________
Date: Sat, 10 Feb 2001 18:08:57 -0500 (EST)
From: Barb Marshall <bmarshall@trentu.ca>
Subject: Re: [histsex] EROS-CTD
Not only was the FDA approval study a small sample, it appears to have
been entirely lacking any control or comparison. What I find really
interesting though is the moral (not to mention economic) market
segmentation of sex toy (for fun) versus medical technology (for
'therapy'), the latter of course resting on acceptance of an organic
disease model for female sexual 'dysfunction'.
Barb.
**************************************************
Barbara L. Marshall Associate Professor, Sociology and Women's Studies
Trent University, Peterborough, Ontario, Canada K9J 7B8
(705) 748-1011 x1334 (voice) (705) 748-1630 (fax)
www.trentu.ca/sociology/bmarshall bmarshall@trentu.ca
___________________________________________________________________
From: JNKATZ1@aol.com
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 06:43:10 EST
Subject: [histsex] Age of Marriage???
Age of marriage of professional men in small-town Illinois around 1844?
Does anyone know any good sources on men's age of marriage in the U.S.,
mid-19th century?
For my new book on sex and affection betweeen men in the U.S. in the 19th
century, I'm trying to document my claim that 37 was an advanced age of
marriage for a professional male (a small-town lawyer), in Illinois, in 1844.
Desperately, Jonathan Ned Katz
___________________________________________________________________
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 22:08:25 -0500 (EST)
From: Gregory {Greg} Downing <gd2@nyu.edu>
Subject: Re: [histsex] Age of Marriage???
At 06:43 AM 2/11/2001 EST, you wrote:
>Age of marriage of professional men in small-town Illinois around 1844?
>>Does anyone know any good sources on men's age of marriage in the U.S.,
>mid-19th century?
>>For my new book on sex and affection betweeen men in the U.S. in the 19th
>century, I'm trying to document my claim that 37 was an advanced age of
>marriage for a professional male (a small-town lawyer), in Illinois, in 1844.
>>Desperately, Jonathan Ned Katz
>
Well, if you are *desperate* maybe some non-statistical info will help. My
wife has done a *lot* of research into family history in 19th-cent. Maryland
and Virginia. The heavily predominant age-range for (first) marriage among
women in that era was 16-20, among men maybe 18-22 or so. 37 would be very
late for a *first* marriage, even for a professional (of whom there were far
fewer then than now, of course); a professional might not marry until done,
or almost done, with professional studies, but that is still
early-to-mid-20s, usually.
National and state govts. began keeping vital statistics on these matters by
the second half of the nineteenth century; in US almanacs I have
occasionally come across average-age-at-first-marriage stats for the US as a
whole from the late 19th on through the 20th cent. I'm sure these kinds of
cross-country govt stats are available from the late 19th cent onwards.
But for eras prior to general reporting and statistical compilation of this
kind, the most convenient way to get a sense of age-at-first-marriage would
probably be to look in the kinds of reference works genealogoists use. I
would bet that some genealogist has compiled, from church records and/or
from county or state registries, a (n.b.: less than complete) list of
marriage records for the state of Illinois that covers a period including
the year 1844. More recently these types of compilations have begun to be
published, or re-published, on CDROM or other easily searchable media. A
quick search of, or even just a glance through, such a compilation will tell
you how infrequently first marriages took place at age 37. (Note that in the
days before general reporting requirements it is sometimes hard to tell,
without a great deal of research, whether a given marriage record is for a
first marriage or for a widow(er)'s subsequent remarriage.)
Hope this helps a little.
Best,
Greg Downing, at greg.downing@nyu.edu or gd2@nyu.edu
___________________________________________________________________
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 13:12:14 +0000
From: Hera Cook <hera.cook@virgin.net>
Subject: Re: [histsex] 'Advent of the orgasmotron'
Hi David,
My understanding (from Sherfey) is that the bulk of the clitoral structure that becomes
engorged with blood is inside the pelvis - so I presume the action of the pump is not
analogous to that of a penile pump which produces an erection in the man ( or simulacrum of
one). In other words pumping away at the tiny area of sexual tissue that is visible does not
seem likely to cause the bulk of the sexual tissue to become engorged with blood. So what
does this pump do? Obviously for most women friction on the clitoris produces pleasure but I
don't see how this would produce an orgasm in an otherwise non-orgasmic woman.
Hera
___________________________________________________________________
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 05:22:46 -0800 (PST)
From: Jennifer Ball <JenniferLBall@excite.com>
Subject: Re: [histsex] Age of Marriage???
On Sun, 11 Feb 2001 06:43:10 EST, Histsex:For historians of sexuality wrote:
Histsex:For historians of sexuality -
http://homepages.primex.co.uk/~lesleyah/listinf.htm
--------------------------- ListBot Sponsor --------------------------
Start Your Own FREE Email List at http://www.listbot.com/links/joinlb
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Age of marriage of professional men in small-town Illinois around 1844?
I don't know for sure, but have you thought to go at it from the other side
and look at female sources? You'd probaly get more ages and comments on
whehter or not the man's age was advanced. Diaries etc. also the gerritson
collection of women's sources.
hope that helps.
Jen Ball
___________________________________________________________________
From: JNKATZ1@aol.com
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 13:01:24 EST
Subject: Re: [histsex] Age of Marriage???
Thanks so much for your response. I will look in my book on American women's
history at hand. Good sugestion. Jonathan
___________________________________________________________________
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 09:35:58 -0800
From: "Dr. David Hersh" <Dr_Sex@netidea.com>
Subject: Re: [histsex] 'Advent of the orgasmotron'
At 01:12 PM 2/11/2001 +0000, Hera Cook wrote:
>So what does this pump do? Obviously for most women friction on the
>clitoris produces pleasure but I don't see how this would produce an
>orgasm in an otherwise non-orgasmic woman.
As to the EROS-CTD, I don't know what theory they were assuming. The
behavior of "pumping" in general seems to cause swelling in any area of the
body being pumped, and in this case the visable clitoris is pulled into the
cylinder and held there by a vaccuum valve (on the devices other than the
EROS-CTD). This has been found to be pleasurable by some women. I don't
perceive pumping as even necessarily having orgasmic potential, but it is
simply another sex toy that focuses on a specific area of the body. There
are cylinders of varying diameters for various parts of the body. Both men
and women are involved in this behavior. Clearly, one of its aims is, at
least for a short time, to produce a stretching/enlargement of the area
suctioned, and thus an increased blood flow to that area.
David
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
David S. Hersh, Ed.D., FAACS
Clinical Sexologist
http://Doctor-Sex.org
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
___________________________________________________________________Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 12:16:24 -0800 (PST)
From: "A. G. McLaren" <amclaren@UVic.CA>
Subject: Re: [histsex] sex and alimony
Would anyone out there have any references on the history of alimony,
especially how it might have been jeopardized by a spouse's finding out
about their ex-partner's sexual activities?
Thanks in advance.
Angus McLaren
___________________________________________________________________From: JNKATZ1@aol.com
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 06:21:04 EST
Subject: Re: [histsex] Age of Marriage???
Thanks so much for your comments. I also think that 37 was quite an advanced
age for a first marriage. Sincerely, Jonathan
___________________________________________________________________
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 06:21:11 -0500
From: Gail Bederman <Gail.Bederman.1@nd.edu>
Subject: Re: [histsex] sex and alimony
It's not alimony, exactly, but Hendrik Hartog's wonderful new book on
divorce and marriage in the 19th century, _Man and Wife in America_
has a lot about US divorced and separated women's right to
maintenance during the nineteenth century, as long as their husband
was the offending party, and presumably(?) as long as they remain
chaste, etc.
Norma Basch's _Framing American Divorce_ has a short section on the
history of alimony.
Gail
>Histsex:For historians of sexuality -
>http://homepages.primex.co.uk/~lesleyah/listinf.htm
>>--------------------------- ListBot Sponsor --------------------------
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>----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>Would anyone out there have any references on the history of alimony,
>especially how it might have been jeopardized by a spouse's finding out
>about their ex-partner's sexual activities?
>>Thanks in advance.
>Angus McLaren
>>>__________________________________________________________________Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 01:44:17 -0800
From: julian carter <jcarter@leland.stanford.edu>
Subject: [histsex] queer teaching
>Dear colleagues,
I sent this to the list a couple of weeks ago, and have had a couple of
off-list inquiries from people wanting to know what kinds of answers I got.
Seems like there might be enough interest out there to justify sending it
out again: the original post kind of disappeared during the shift from one
server to another, so it's possible people didn't get it.
I'm pondering the shift from GLB(T) to queer studies as the rubric for
increasing numbers of undergraduate programs (or concentrations or minors).
Seems like "queer" offers us a much broader rubric for course design, but
that can sometimes be a burden as well as a blessing. Has anybody put
together an "intro to queer studies" syllabus that's conceived more broadly
than "intro to LGBT studies," and if so, what holds it together
conceptually?
More generally, I'm curious about the sorts of courses you all might think
of teaching if someone said "hey, you wanna do a Queer Studies class?" What
sorts of things sound interesting and legitimate to you?
Thanks--and my apologies for the double post--
Julian
___________________________________________________________________From: "Barb Marshall" <bmarshall@trentu.ca>
Subject: RE: [histsex] queer teaching
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 09:06:54 -0500
Hi -- while not specifically a 'queer studies' course, I teach a sociology
course called 'The Social Construction of Sexuality" which is an
introduction to critical perspectives on sexualities more generally
conceived. My students are mostly 'straight' (and fairly conservatively
so!), so I focus on problematizing the naturalness of heterosexuality (and
heterogender) as a way into sexual diversities. This approach is received
well by my gay and lesbian students as well. If anyone is interested, my
syllabus and course materials are available on-line at
www.trentu.ca/sociology/soci344h
Barbara L. Marshall
Associate Professor, Sociology and Women's Studies
Trent University, Peterborough, ON Canada K9J 7B8
www.trentu.ca/sociology/bmarshall
___________________________________________________________________
From: "Healey D." <D.Healey@swansea.ac.uk>
Subject: RE: [histsex] queer teaching
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 14:36:42 -0000
-
In Jan-Mar 2000, while a contract teacher at the University of Glasgow, I
offered a one-off course to 2nd & 3rd year history majors entitled "Sexual
and Gender Dissent in Modern Europe". It was a history module in a
conventional history department. I presented the material with a decidedly
queer spin and the course only devoted about 40% of its time/content to
same-sex love and its medicalization. We also looked at hermaphrodites and
transgender identities in their historical contexts. It was hard to find
material not oriented toward the Anglo-American world when discussing these
things, and even less that was informed by queer theory. I had a very
supportive department behind me that pushed the syllabus through internal
university committee-scrutiny, which threatened to refer it to an external
examiner before accrediting it. In the end that did not happen. But the
political context is everything for this kind of course. The word "queer" in
a history department's syllabus is anathema in Britain, so clarifying
phrases like the one in my title helped it to pass the quality control
police. And perhaps eased students' minds about their records, although
detailed transcripts are not an issue in the UK the way they are in the USA
& Canada.
In terms of the response from my group of about 30 students, it was mixed
but enthusiastic. Almost all appeared to be straight-identified, although in
good British fashion there was no direct discussion of who is/isn't (except
from me, a Canadian and therefore licensed to say awkward things). I had one
US exchange student fresh from an ivy-league university's queer theory
course in an English Dept. who was a femme lesbian and very up front about
it - she kept me on my toes! And there were two or three young Scottish men
and women who gained confidence in speaking about same-sex issues in an
authoritative way (I thought they were coming out). It was a self-selecting
group since the course was an elective, so no overt bigotry surfaced; all
students approached this unfamiliar material with good intentions and
expressed those in their essays and oral work. The course took place against
the backdrop of the Scottish Parliament's attempt (eventually, successful)
to repeal Margaret Thatcher's homophobic "Section 28" against the "promotion
of homosexuality as a pretended family relationship" using local govt funds.
It meant there was a lot of bad atmosphere in the media and even a
homophobic billboard campaign the likes of which prim Scotland had never
seen. But it was a gift in terms of making these issues seem relevant. I
have now moved to Wales, to the U of Wales Swansea, and am offering a
son-of-sexual-dissent module at the first year level. The jury is out on
whether this works at such an early stage, and with students (by and large
from comfortable families from middle-England; cf. Middle America!) who seem
more conservative. But I would say the rewards are huge and exciting.
Dan Healey
Lecturer in History
University of Wales Swansea
___________________________________________________________________From: Lesley Hall <lesleyah@primex.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [histsex] sex and alimony
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 14:48:38 GMT
It occurs to me that this would probably fit into a
wider context of women being given certain financial
benefits only on the precondition of remaining chaste:
e.g. soldiers' wives separation allowances, widows'
pensions, and within very recent years in the UK,
women who were presumed to be 'cohabiting' could have
social security benefits taken away (allegedly on the
basis that they were living in a quasi-marital
relationship and being supported by the man). Wasn't
some similar proviso also sometimes written into wills
in respect of what the widow inherited?
Lesley Hall
lesleyah@primex.co.uk
___________________________________________________________________
From: Swamp1800@aol.com
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 13:13:46 EST
Subject: Re: [histsex] Age of Marriage???
>From my reading, which tends toward the earlier and lustier 18th century,
there might be another age that is important in this context. What was the
age at which the young lawyer made his first proposal of marriage? It seems
for men who probably weren't really interested in marrying at all, one
notable rejection or better yet the death of a fiancee, could be used for the
rest of his life as an excuse for why he never got married, and so one could
be respectable, especially if the young man's career takes off and there's no
reason to marry for money. Conversely, if such a fellow does have a heart
break that might justify his continuing to be single, and then a few years
later make another proposal that is accepted, perhaps he has a hankering for
women after all.
Bob Arnebeck
Wellesley Island, NY
http://members.aol.com/Swamp1800/LEnfant.html (sex in 1790s)
___________________________________________________________________Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 10:58:02 -0800
From: Sharon Block <sblock@uci.edu>
Subject: [histsex] CONF: Early American Sexuality
The McNeil Center for Early American Studies and the Omohundro Institute of
Early American History and Culture are sponsoring a conference on Sexuality in
Early America, to be held June 1-3 in Philadelphia.
The conference papers will be precirculated (you may either purchase a bound
set of papers or view free .pdf files online), and registration for the
conference is free. There are also graduate student travel subsidies
available.
Full conference information is available at
<http://www.mceas.org/june2001>www.mceas.org/june2001.
Sharon Block, conference co-chair
sblock@uci.edu
___________________________________________________________________From: David Greenberg <david.greenberg@nyu.edu>
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 14:59:49 -0500
Subject: Re: [histsex] Age of Marriage???
I would suggest checking out a book published by the U.S. Government
Printing Office called HISTORICAL STATISTICS OF THE UNITED STATES. -
David Greenberg
___________________________________________________________________
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 15:16:32 -0500 (EST)
From: Gregory {Greg} Downing <gd2@nyu.edu>
Subject: Re: [histsex] Age of Marriage???
At 02:59 PM 2/12/2001 -0500, you wrote:
>I would suggest checking out a book published by the U.S. Government
>Printing Office called HISTORICAL STATISTICS OF THE UNITED STATES. -
>>David Greenberg
>
Do you happen to know how far back this source provides information on such
matters as age at first marriage? Back to 1844, as in the original query? My
sense is that state and national government only began to mandate collection
of marriage information around the middle of the nineteenth century -- but
I'd love to discover any new source of information for the much more
sparsely documented first half of the 19th century --
Best to all,
Greg Downing, at greg.downing@nyu.edu or gd2@nyu.edu
___________________________________________________________________Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 15:22:22 -0500
From: Gail Bederman <Gail.Bederman.1@nd.edu>
Subject: Fwd: Re: [histsex] Age of Marriage???
I sent this to JNK yesterday privately, not thinking there'd be so
much interest on the list, but since there is I thought I'd post it.
>Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2001 14:33:45 -0500
>To: JNKATZ1@aol.com
>From: Gail Bederman <Gail.Bederman.1@nd.edu>
>Subject: Re: [histsex] Age of Marriage???
>Cc:
>Bcc:
>X-Attachments:
>>E. Anthony Rotundo writes on p. 115 of _American Manhood,_ "Even in
>the earliest years of the [19th] century, the average American male
>first joined a woman in matrimony when in his mid-twenties. The
>experience of the men studied here (who are not, to be sure, a
>scientific sample) suggests that the average age of marriage for
>Northern middle class males in the early nineteenth century was a
>few years older than for the general population of men. Other
>studies have shown that, in the later years of the century [this
>would be Mary Ryan, 1855], the average middle-class male did not
>marry until he was nearly thirty."
>>Rotundo's footnote to this cites Ellen K. Rothman, _Hearts and
>Hands_, 22-23 who suggests that "the average young man of the early
>republic married in his middle-to-late twenties adn was a few years
>older than his bride."
>>His footnote also cites Mary P. Ryan, _Cradle of the Middle Class_
>179, who finds that in Utica, among the white professional middle
>class, only 35.3% of the cohort aged 25-30 were married in 1855.
>She's got a short chart on page 269 which has more info, broken down
>by occupational group etc.
>>Gail
___________________________________________________________________Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 18:24:57 -0800
Subject: Re: [histsex] CONF: Early American Sexuality
From: "William Todd" <btodd-mancillas@csuchico.edu>
Hmm... Interesting.
___________________________________________________________________
From: DBStein@aol.com
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 11:03:06 EST
Subject: [histsex] Research Question on Women's Sexuality in 1870s America
I'm writing a novel on Colorado's Baby Doe Tabor who lived from 1854-1935. I
am particularly interested in what her attitudes toward her honeymoon might
have been at that time. I've done some preliminary research but would love
to hear anything else anyone might want to add. Thank you!
Donna Baier Stein
15 Main Street, PO Box 659
Peapack, New Jersey 07977-0659
908-781-7849/
___________________________________________________________________
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 13:27:24 -0500
From: Fred Nesta <nesta_f@spcvxa.spc.edu>
Subject: [histsex] History articles
Two interesting articles from The Journal of American History, 87:2. are
online at
http://www.historycooperative.org/journals/jah/87.2/
Victoria Woodhull, Anthony Comstock, and Conflict over Sex in the United
States in the 1870s / Helen Lefkowitz Horowitz
Black Market Birth Control: Contraceptive Entrepreneurship and Criminality
in the Gilded Age / Andrea Tone
Fred Nesta
___________________________________________________________________From: DBStein@aol.com
Date: Tue, 13 Feb 2001 13:43:30 EST
Subject: Re: [histsex] History articles
Thank you, Fred Nesta!
Donna Stein
___________________________________________________________________
From: Europamoon7@aol.com
Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 01:52:51 EST
Subject: Re: [histsex] Ancient Egyptian Same -Sex Desire: Lecture UC Berkeley
Gary,
Please let me know if you are ever in southern California for a lecture. I
am very interested in the sexual attitudes of classical cultures particularly
the ancient Romans and ancient Egyptians. I also belong to ARCE and am sorry
to miss your talk. Good luck with it.
Thank you,
Carmen
___________________________________________________________________
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 14:06:47 -0500
From: Cristina Nelson <crn@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: [histsex] Masters and Johnson
Dear Colleagues,
I have just been told about something that might be relevant to my research
and I turn to you first to see if any of you could direct me to sources.
I am writing a dissertation on women's underwear , U.S. 1940-1970. Someone
just told me that he saw an article somewhere (he knows not where) about
photos and/or illustrations of clothing and shoes in the Masters & Johnson
"files" - presumably this was to see if these items aroused people, I would
guess. He said the photos of the items dated to around 1940. ( I thought
M&J did the bulk of their research in the 70's)
In any case, rather then typing in M&J on my search engine and getting
25,000 hits, I thought I would turn to you all first. Does anyone know
where the papers are held? I suppose a call to the archivist there might be
useful. Or...has anyone seen an article about this?
While I am on the subject...if anyone knows of sex studies done between
1940-1970 (or thereabouts) which feature responses about underwear, please
let me know.
Thanks to all.
Cristina Nelson
UNC
Chapel Hill
___________________________________________________________________From: Mary.Philbin@ppfa.org
Subject: [histsex] Skin condoms in lanolin in the 1950s
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 14:33:25 -0500
Hello Everyone!
I am currently working on a paper about the History of Contraception.
Somebody told me that they remember in the 1950s men would use skin condoms
and keep them stored in a wooden box. The condoms would be slathered with
lanolin so they wouldn't dry out. Does this sound familiar to any of you?
If so, is it mentioned anywhere so I could cite it?
Thank you very much in advance!
Mary Philbin
___________________________________________________________________
From: "Lesley Hall" <lesleyah@primex.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [histsex] Masters and Johnson
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 19:54:05 -0000
Someone
>just told me that he saw an article somewhere (he knows not where) about
>photos and/or illustrations of clothing and shoes in the Masters & Johnson
>"files" - presumably this was to see if these items aroused people, I would
>guess. He said the photos of the items dated to around 1940.
By both date and methodology, this sounds like Kinsey to me. These records
may still be among the archives at the Kinsey Institute.
Lesley Hall
lesleyah@primex.co.uk
website http://homepages.primex.co.uk/~lesleyah
___________________________________________________________________
From: "Lesley Hall" <lesleyah@primex.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [histsex] Skin condoms in lanolin in the 1950s
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 19:57:48 -0000
I don't know about the lanolin, but it's certainly the case that sheepgut
condoms had to be moistened before wear (in water or milk: see the
instructions on my condom page,
http://homepages.primex.co.uk/~lesleyah/condoms.htm). Lanolin I suppose is
'like to like' since both come from sheep, but I would have thought it might
cause adverse vaginal reactions (given the various recommendations that are
made about lubricants that they need to be water-soluble or else they cause
problems)
Lesley Hall
lesleyah@primex.co.uk
website http://homepages.primex.co.uk/~lesleyah
___________________________________________________________________Date: Mon, 12 Feb 2001 13:02:56 +1300
From: "Walter Cook" <Walter.Cook@natlib.govt.nz>
Subject: [histsex] re advent of the orgasmotron
Surely this issue, unlike most historical research which is limited to past records, provides you all with a unique oportunity to test a present situation yourselves, and then report back to the list. There must be some eager intitution out there willing to fund such a project
Walter cook
___________________________________________________________________Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 19:15:46 +0100
From: ning <ning@mail.dou.dk>
Subject: [histsex] review of Jean Claude Caron A l'ecole de la violence
Dear Histsex - discussion list. I have just reviewed this book for the journal
Pedagocica Historica and I thought it might be of interest to you, since it
deals a lot with the history of pedophilia. Kind regards Ning de Coninck-Smith
Jean-Claude Caron: A l'ecole de la violence. Chatiments et sevices dans
l'institution scolare au XIXe siecle. Paris: Aubier, Collection historique,
1999
The book A l'ecole de la violence by Jean-Claude Caron opens up a window into
the world of the elementary school of France in the 19th Century. Based on
disciplinary cases from the years 1830-1860, scientific literature, fiction
and memoirs he draws a picture of a world of physical punishment and of sexual
harassments and indecencies. Despite of physical punishment being banned from
French state- schools since the 1830's students were hit with the famous
"ferule" (a short whip of two intertwined leather straps) or had to endure a
variation of humiliating punishments like crawling on their knees. Some
students did also experience that the teacher touched their private parts or
that he encouraged them to masturbate in front of him. At the same time as
this was going on forensic medicine as well as the legal system were debating
over how to establish proof of physical and sexual abuse of children. This
included a debate over the child as a witness. Children were caught in a cross
fire. On one hand there was a growing awareness of children as individuals
with their own mental and physical needs and developments - on the other hand
the growing visibility of the child carried with it a preoccupations with the
vices of children. It was the story of child born out of Evil in a new
disguise, or as bishop Dupanloup put it in his book L'Enfant from 1850, there
were hardly a child, that from an early age had not had more or less of the
poison. "pas un qui ne sache, sinon tout le mal, au moins quelque chose du
mal!" (166)
Caron finds that the years between 1830 and 1860 were crucial in establishing
a new approach to abuse of students within the educational system. The rise of
forensic medicine contributed to the development of a vocabulary, so that the
phenomena could be spoken about in public. The years were also marked by a
growing tension between the Church-schools and the State-schools and many
cases came for a day as part of these fights. The majority of all the cases
were reported from Church-schools, which Caron explains by the use of very
young and badly educated teachers, who in many cases were not even monks or
priests - but just needed a job. Many of them came from the country-side, and
when they punished the children they turned to behaviors related to the animal
world, like clinging the child up on the wall like a pig that is about to be
cut open.
The book contains illustrating examples of the many interests that were at
stake, when a teacher was charged with an accusation of physical or sexually
abusing his students. The local community could back the teacher in reaction
to interference from the Central Government and its "Inspecteurs". The
Church-schools did mainly serve poor community, and the threat of seeing the
school disappear if the teacher was sent to prison could prevent a case from
being taking into court. In many cases, where no physical proof could be
attained, the courts chose to believe the teacher. Teachers could get away
with explaining that the purpose of asking boys about their view of women and
sexuality was to guide them, not to indulge in their curiosity. Another
teacher told the court, that he had asked the boys to masturbate in front of
him, so he could see for himself what he had heard they had done in class.
Even though Caron is most occupied with the many cases, where the teacher was
either acquitted or had a symbolic sentence, his work demonstrates, that both
physical as well as sexual abuse of school children was something the 19th
Century cared about. A conclusion confirmed by research done in other
countries, like Louisa A. Jackson's study of Sexual Abuse in Victorian
England. Al along the 19th Century sexual abuse of children was condemned,
but the creation of a legal procedure was late because of the many interests
that were at stake. Physical punishment was condemned in law but in a very
unspecific way. It opened up for many interpretations as become visible from
the court material. Parents wanted limits put on the punishment, but apart
from a few elitist experts, there was no mentioning of abolishment.
Carons book is a wonderful study of everyday life within the educational
system. It illustrates the richness of the court material and the usefulness
of interpreting the history of education in relation to other studies of the
social and cultural history of the 19th Century (George Vigarello, Alain
Corbin, Anne Marie Sohn and Michel Foucault among many others). The
description of the rise of forensic medicine and its early study of girls,
victims of sexual abuse is fascinating reading.
The discovery of the disciplinary cases in the files of the files of
"L'instruction publique" is a scoop, but they only cover the years 1830-1860
and the reader is left to wonder what happened before and after. Nowhere in
the study are we told how common it was, that teachers were accused of
physical or sexual abusing their students.
Caron survey of the forensic medical debate shows that it was girls, who were
the focus of attention - but from the court material it becomes clear that
most cases dealt with boys. Why this did not have a impact on the public
debate is not discussed. The reader is left to believe that sexual abuse of
boys was more challenging to the public opinion - and therefore less
speakable, than sexual abuse of girls.
The message we get from Caron's work is not completely clear. Is this a -
sometimes too - moral tale about the sufferings of children - or is it a
contribution to the history of sexuality seen from the perspective of the
history of education and childhood. Caron is hesitating between these two
stands and only at the end of the book does he reflect on what the court
material could have told us about children's own sexuality. In the opinion of
this reader it might also have been fruitful to supply the inaugural
discussion about violence from a philosophical and political perspective with
a reflection of the relations between sadism and pedophilia as part of the
history of sexuality.
Fortunately the book is equipped with a list of literature, that will make it
possible to start work on some of these questions that rise out of this very
pathbreaking work.
Ning de Coninck-Smith
Southern Denmark University - Odense
Ning de Coninck-Smith, associate professor, Ph.D.
Center of Contemporary Cultural Studies
Southern Denmark University
5230 Odense M. Denmark
from August 1st. 2000 - July, 31, 2001:
1044 Keith Avenue
Berkeley 94708 California
USA
___________________________________________________________________From: JNKATZ1@aol.com
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 20:58:33 EST
Subject: [histsex] 19th century men/men photo
For the cover of my book about sex and affection between men in the 19th
century, I'm still looking for the perfect old affectionate men photo. The
book's to be published by the University of Chicago Press fall 2001.
If anyone has a great old picture, or knows of a collector who has such a
picture, please let me know. Thanks,
Jonathan Ned Katz
___________________________________________________________________Date: Wed, 14 Feb 2001 18:46:26 -0800 (PST)
From: Jennifer Ball <jenniferlball@excite.com>
Subject: Re: [histsex] Masters and Johnson
Christine,
I would look in Kinsey's sex histories for possible sources. They include
fantasies. look in chapter 3 in Sexual Behaviour of the Human Male it lists
the questions in detail. But, it would mean going to the Kinsey Institute
to recover the data.
Jen
___________________________________________________________________
From: "Dalley-Crozier ,Dr Ivan" <i.dalley-crozier@wellcome.ac.uk>
Subject: [histsex] reviews?
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 14:35:02 -0000
http://homepages.primex.co.uk/~lesleyah/listinf.htm
Dear All,
I am after reviews of the folowing works: especially on line ones, but any
places where the following books were reviewed would be handy. They are:
Mike Wallis, "Gotham"
George Chauncey, "Gay New York : Gender, Urban Culture, and the Making of
the Gay Male World, 1890-1940"
Timothy J. Gilfoyle, "City of Eros : New York City, Prostitution, and the
Commercialization of Sex, 1790-1920"
Thanks.
Cheerio, Ivan
============================================
Ivan Crozier,
i.dalley-crozier@wellcome.ac.uk
"An entertaining essay might perhaps be
written on the sexlessness of historians;
but it would be entertaining and nothing
more: we do not know enough either about
the historians or sex."
--Lytton Strachey, 1931
============================================
___________________________________________________________________Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 16:35:50 +0100 (MET)
From: <a2534304@Smail.Uni-Koeln.de>
Subject: Re: [histsex] reviews?
> Mike Wallis, "Gotham"
Two reviews can be found at H-Net Reviews:
<http://www2.h-net.msu.edu/reviews/showrev.cgi?path=19122921683829>
and
<http://www2.h-net.msu.edu/reviews/showrev.cgi?path=18358921682812>
Stefan Blaschke.
___________________________________________________________________Date: Thu, 15 Feb 2001 08:39:20 -0800 (PST)
From: "A. G. McLaren" <amclaren@UVic.CA>
Subject: Re: [histsex] alimony and sex
Thanks to Gail and Lesley for the suggestions.
Angus
___________________________________________________________________From: "theo van der meer" <thamvdme@hetnet.nl>
Subject: Re: [histsex] reviews?
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 08:24:35 +0100
It sometimes can be helpful to go to Amazon.com. They have both =
editorial and readers' reviews. I just checked them for Chauncey's book.
Theo van der Meer
___________________________________________________________________From: "Lesley Hall" <lesleyah@primex.co.uk>
Subject: [histsex] FW: Review of interest
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 20:42:32 -0000
>H-NET BOOK REVIEW
>Published by H-Italy@h-net.msu.edu (January, 2001)
>>Luisa Passerini. _Europe in Love. Love in Europe. Imagination and
>Politics between the Wars_. New York and London: New York University
>Press, 1999. 358 pp. Index, Bibliography, Four colour plates, 6
>black and white illustrations. 25 UK pounds (cloth), ISBN
>0-8147-6698-6.
>>Reviewed for H-Italy by John Foot <j.foot@ucl.ac.uk>, Department of
>Italian, University College London
>>This book represents Luisa Passerini's first full-length study which
>does not deal with Italian history. It is also not based on oral
>history, the discipline at the heart of most of Passerini's
>celebrated previous works, from _Fascism in Popular Memory_ (1987)
>to _Autobiography of a Generation_ (1988, in English 1998). As such,
>this volume represents something of a departure for Passerini, and
>her readers may find both the subject-matter and the style and
>organisation of the book more than a touch disconcerting, at first.
>Perseverance, however, brings its rewards. This is, as with all of
>her previous books, a profoundly original and interesting work which
>deals with a theme which may, at first, seem somewhat bizarre -- the
>connections and representations of the idea of Europe and the idea
>of love in the Britain of the 1930s. Like all of Passerini's work,
>however, _Love in Europe_ works at the margins of historiography,
>constantly searching for new ways of writing and understanding
>history and the role of the historian.
>>Although much has been written on the idea of a united Europe, and
>much as well on the idea of love and especially courtly love, no
>study has attempted to combine a study of the two in such an
>unsteady and traumatic period for Europe as a whole as the 1930s. As
>a "traditional" account, Passerini's work is least successful when
>attempting to connect these two themes. In fact, the book as a whole
>fails to make a convincing case for itself as a work of History.
>Yet, the "revolutionary" aspects of Passerini's historical method
>and style mean that, in my opinion, such a criticism of the book is
>misplaced--it misses the point. The book cannot be understood as a
>coherent collection of historical reflections in any traditional
>sense. It is not intended in this way and should not be read in
>this way (see the fascinating exchange between Timothy Bewes and
>Passerini in the _New Left Review_, 236, 1999 and 1, 2000. Bewes
>acknowledges the originality of this approach but is very critical
>of it).
>>Let us start then with these methodological questions. Passerini
>divides the volume into seven chapters -- which are duly called
>"chapters" -- but which are overlaid with other (and different)
>"itineraries" marked out in the introduction. Four of these
>chapters consist largely of close readings of individual or groups
>of novels or other works by various British-based novelists and
>writers of the 1930s: Ralph Mottram (chapter 1); Christopher Dawson
>(ch. 2); Dimitrije Mitrinovic (ch. 3) and Robert Briffault (chapter
>4). Chapter 5 is made up largely of a discussion of the idea of
>courtly love and its "mythical" roots in Provence based around a
>reading of C. S. Lewiss _The Allegory of Love_. Chapter 6 looks
>mainly at political and cultural ideals of a united Europe. Finally,
>chapter 7 centres around a private correspondence between an English
>woman and her German husband before and during the second world war.
>Interspersed with these readings of texts are historical accounts of
>various societies set up to promote a united Europe in the 1930s,
>and the personalities involved in these type of organisations, along
>with discussions of the effects of psychoanalytic ideas, fascist
>ideologies and the reception of various novels, articles and
>histories.
>>These rich and multi-layered itineraries and chapters are what
>Passerini says they are -- "open-ended and leading to further
>exploration" (12). They are not intended as the answer to
>complicated questions concerning Europe, Love and national identity,
>but as "hints" (12) towards further thought, research and reflection
>as well as ways of highlighting often obscure but interesting work
>from this period. As Bewes rightly observes Passerini rejects "the
>once conventional assumption of historians of the past that the past
>and the present exist in any sort of continuity, that the past may
>be used to illuminate the present" (NLR 236, 1999, p. 104). Within
>this set of itineraries and chapters a series of different
>methodological approaches are adopted by Passerini which all but
>ignore the traditional separation between "primary" and "secondary"
>sources. At times, Passerini adopts a micro-historical methodology
>taking individual texts as both primary and secondary sources (such
>as with the discussion of Mottram). Yet, "this approach is not
>social, as has often been the case with micro-history, but cultural,
>inspired by psycho-analytical literary theory criticism" (17). Other
>sections use more conventional historical tools, as with the
>discussion of courtly love or the cultural and intellectual history
>of the idea of Europe. Finally, there is the chapter based on the
>letters which uses a combination of all these methods, but also
>invents new ways of looking at texts, correspondence and emotions in
>history. Much of this is also overlaid (or underlaid??) by an
>attempt to combine psychoanalysis and history, and to draw out some
>"repressed" themes in this work. This is a pioneering and
>difficult area which involves the problematic application of what
>Passerini calls "an interest in the marginal, the unrepresentative,
>the interstitial" (18). Passerini also calls into question her own
>role as a historian, inviting us (as well) to read this book as both
>a primary and secondary source.
>>One problem with such a multi-faceted approach is the loss of a
>broader picture, the lack of conclusions, the lack of something for
>the reader to grasp hold of. Amidst the fascinating fragments of
>this book the reader can lose his or her way quite easily, and the
>introduction needs to be read with great care, and returned to again
>and again. Without this close reading of the introduction, there is
>a danger of "misreading" the book. For a particularly superficial
>example see Robert Tombs' review in the _TLS_ (6.8.1999) and the
>exchange of letters with Passerini, ibid., 22.10. 1999 and
>29.10.1999). Without using this "method" of reading the volume,
>Passerini's study could appear to be a series of essays lumped
>together into a volume, with little to bring them together beyond
>the broad (and complicated) ideals of Europe and Love. This is a
>book which demands a lot of the reader if it is not to be read as a
>set of purely descriptive accounts of various texts. Yet, a careful
>reading of the book allows a number of important conclusions to
>emerge which Passerini hints at in her introduction.
>>First, there are the dangers of the idea of a united Europe, from
>ethnocentrism right through to straight-forward fascism. The very
>utopianism of the European ideal also seems to inspire authoritarian
>tendencies. A second point involves the gender aspects of the
>Europe-Love connection -- ever present in this volume and most
>elegantly brought out in the chapter based on letters, which stands
>out as a near-masterpiece of modern historical narrative. Finally,
>there are the psychoanalytic questions of repression, underlined by
>Passerini with relation to the constant images associated with
>Europe by a series of writers -- particularly what Passerini calls
>"the myth of Europa and the Bull" (18).
>>Many of the texts discussed by Passerini are looked at from a whole
>series of angles -- from that of the writer, the critics and the
>reading public. Thus, we are given an overall picture of the impact
>of these books and not just a detailed analysis of the text as an
>end in itself. The intention here is to bridge the gap between the
>"personal" and the "political" -- "between the world of feelings and
>emotions to which the novel belonged on the one hand, and the world
>of politics and socially and politically committed intellectuals, on
>the other" (49). This nexus is brought out vividly through the
>discussion of the declining fortunes of British writer Robert
>Briffault, who was himself caught up in the traumas of war in
>occupied France and whose hugely successful book, _Europa_ (1935)
>was followed by a decline into near-oblivion. The whole German
>edition of _Europa_ was burnt by the Nazis after their entry into
>Vienna in 1938. His "life-story was one of brilliant and successful
>nomadism which turned into tragic and desolate self-exile" (183).
>The personal level of both Europe and Love, and the tragedy of war,
>are also at the centre of chapter 7. Passerini tells the story of
>the courtship and marriage of a rich German man and society English
>woman through an analysis of their correspondence over a period of
>15 or so years. This marvellous chapter deals with a whole series of
>issues, from the rigid codes of marriage in that period (the German
>man asks his future wife for proof of the absence of "Jewish blood"
>in her family) to the separations imposed by war and the
>difficulties of an English woman in Germany during the conflict. But
>there are also painful insights into the disintegration of a
>relationship, the sexual problems experienced by both partners and
>the use of language, codes and hidden emphases in the letters. The
>letters are, once again, both a primary and secondary source. They
>tell us some of what happened but also reveal more than just the
>"facts" of the relationship in the way they are written and not
>written.
>>The book's epilogue deals with the personal odyssey of Frank
>Thompson (the brother of E.P. Thompson) who fought in the British
>Army and then with the Bulgarian partisans in 1944. He was executed
>by the pro-axis government there in the same year. Thompson's story
>is used to present a new idea of Europe, born from the resistance to
>fascism across the continent. The semi-mythical figure of Thompson
>"symbolises a period when the hope for the unity and regeneration of
>Europe was not yet broken by disillusionment about Russian
>communism" (316). This book, then, should not be seen as a "history"
>book in any conventional sense. If it is seen in this way, it is a
>failure -- and to criticise the book on these grounds (that it is
>not something it never intended to be), as Bewes does, is to miss
>the point completely. The connections between the texts analysed and
>the arguments made are too loose and confusing for the volume to
>succeed in this way. However, as I have argued already, Passerinis
>work cannot be placed within this oeuvre of "history" and the
>methodological innovations of the book preclude such as location.
>Taken as a new way of writing and understanding history Europe in
>Love represents an important step towards a different way of
>understanding historical research and writing.
>> Copyright (c) 2001 by H-Net, all rights reserved. This work
> may be copied for non-profit educational use if proper credit
> is given to the author and the list. For other permission,
> please contact H-Net@h-net.msu.edu.
___________________________________________________________________From: "Dalley-Crozier ,Dr Ivan" <i.dalley-crozier@wellcome.ac.uk>
Subject: [histsex] sexological cases?
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 15:09:39 -0000
Dear All,
I have a question of some specificity. I am interested at the moment in
case histories in sexology, the cases which are published in sexological
texts and articles. I am especially interested in the period between
1850-1930, although later is OK.
The main thing I am after is letters or other sources where sexologists
discuss cases, and especially where they traffic in cases. Here is an
example of the sort of thing I desire: Havelock Ellis, when writing his book
on Eonism, was using first-person cases. He got most of these cases from
people writing to him, and selected the cases which fitted his theoretical
outlook on Eonism. But he also asked people like Norman Haire if they had
any cases they could send him, and specifically told Haire what he wanted
(non-homosexual cross-dressing men). [if people really want more on this, I
have written an article in History of Psychiatry, 2000].
What I am looking for now is other instances of this happening. I would love
to include some of this from James Kiernan, who discussed cases with Ellis
(archive???), or from Albert Moll. But any sexologist gossiping about a
case wil be useful; French, English or German.
There are of course useful discussions which fit my needs at the end of
papers given at meetings, written up and included the discussion in medical
journals (I am thinking, for example, of the discussion of Browne's 1875
paper, written up in the J Mental Science, on Necrophilia (but meaning
anthropophagy), or of the discussion after Kiernan's paper in the Alienist
and Neurologist of 1892. This is useful--an more of these sorts of
negotiations of the meanings of cases in semi-formal settings pre
publication is useful for me as well, in addition to other examples of
Schrenck-Notzing re-evaluating Krafft-Ebing's cases in Therapeutic
suggestion (1892/95 in English). Instances where sexologists claim that
someone elses interpretaiton is incorrect would be of great use to me as
well, or where they offer counter-cases. I have a number of these.
Other useful published examples are where Freud and Ernest Jones discuss
what a case of snake symbolism actually means. Other Freudian examples in
letters would also suit my purposes. But what I want most is sexologists
discussing these kind of issues. Discussing what cases mean, bringing up
interesting cases which can be used in a publication, swapping cases,
interpreting cases, or spelling out their theoretical commitments about what
they are searching for, etc.
Anything on this would be greatfully accepted.
Cheerio, Ivan
============================================
Ivan Crozier,
i.dalley-crozier@wellcome.ac.uk
"An entertaining essay might perhaps be
written on the sexlessness of historians;
but it would be entertaining and nothing
more: we do not know enough either about
the historians or sex."
--Lytton Strachey, 1931
============================================
___________________________________________________________________From: Mal123nash@aol.com
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 11:27:31 EST
Subject: [histsex] Online Picture Book of First Gay Activist
Karl Ulrichs has much to offer. In the 19th century, Ulrichs wrote and spoke
about homosexuality (he used the word "Uranism"). In 2000 people from around
the world celebrated Ulrichs' 175th birthday anniversary. If you are
interested:
http://www.angelfire.com/fl3/celebration2000/memory.html
<A HREF="http://www.angelfire.com/fl3/celebration2000/memory.html">Karl Heinrich Ulrichs: First Gay Activist: MEMORY BOOK 2000</A>
Greeting from Jacksonville, Florida, USA
Mike (and Paul)
___________________________________________________________________Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2001 14:32:34 -0800
From: Jack Kolb <kolb@ucla.edu>
Subject: [histsex] Fwd: Carter on Somerville, _Queering the Color Line_
>Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2001 13:22:07 -0500
>From: H-Net Reviews <books@H-NET.MSU.EDU>
>Subject: Carter on Somerville, _Queering the Color Line_
>Sender: H-Net Review Project Distribution List <H-REVIEW@H-NET.MSU.EDU>
>To: H-REVIEW@H-NET.MSU.EDU
>Reply-to: H-Net Review Project Distribution List <H-REVIEW@H-NET.MSU.EDU>
>>H-NET BOOK REVIEW
>Published by H-Women@h-net.msu.edu (January, 2001)
>>Siobhan B. Somerville. _Queering the Color Line: Race and the
>Invention of Homosexuality in American Culture_. Durham, N.C., and
>London: Duke University Press, 2000. xi + 176 pp. Appendix, notes,
>bibliography, and index. $49.95 (cloth), ISBN 0-8223-2407-5; $17.95
>(paper), ISBN 0-8223-2443-1.
>>Reviewed for H-Women by Julian B. Carter
><jcarter@leland.stanford.edu>, Stanford University, Introduction to
>the Humanities Program.
>>Queering Disciplinary Boundaries
>>_Queering the Color Line_ sets out to correct what Somerville
>identifies as a persistent and regrettable tendency for contemporary
>Americans to think about race and sexuality as fundamentally
>different analytic categories. This tendency, she argues, has its
>origin in the historical processes through which modern conceptions
>of homosexuality developed in concert with late nineteenth century
>discourses on race. By tracing the historical interdependence of
>both scientific and popular theories of race and sexuality,
>Somerville accomplishes two significant goals. First, she
>demonstrates the value of queer-studies perspectives for
>interpreting texts previously analyzed primarily through the lens of
>race. Similarly, she shows that works previously treated as sources
>for the history of sexuality are illuminated by critical attention
>to the way they mobilize contemporary discourses of racialization.
>Second, she identifies a historical shift from a cultural system
>that relied on physical traits to differentiate people from one
>another, to a more modern one which focused on desire as the most
>meaningful axis of difference.
>>In the opening chapter Somerville spells out the connection between
>racial and sexual science in the late nineteenth and early twentieth
>centuries. She argues that sexological descriptions of the
>"invert," a sexually intermediate type halfway between "pure" male
>and "pure" female, drew upon the methods and conclusions that racial
>science had mobilized in its descriptions of mulattos and other
>"half-breeds." By the 1920s, however, the model of gender inversion
>had been replaced by a new model of homosexuality. This new model
>had no room for intermediate types; instead, it worked through a
>logic of polarized sexual difference, in which men were men and
>women were women. The homosexual thus came into being as a person
>who desired a member of his or her "own" sex.
>>Somerville argues that this new polarization of bodies and focus on
>desires reflected a similar, simultaneous shift in racial thinking.
>Over the same time period, the cultural figure of the mulatto gave
>way to a new vision of the races as natural opposites, and
>increasing numbers of legal and social mechanisms were put into
>place to prevent people of different races from having sex with one
>another. Thus the emergence of new sexual categories mirrored, and
>was profoundly influenced by, the hardening of the "color line," the
>stark division of Americans into strictly segregated categories of
>"black" and "white."
>>Chapter Two, "The Queer Career of Jim Crow," turns from the elite
>discourses of science and law to the popular cultures of race and
>sex depicted in silent films. This chapter addresses the 1914
>Vitagraph film "A Florida Enchantment," which previous scholars have
>interpreted as a witty and lighthearted representation of gender
>fluidity and lesbian desire. In Somerville's hands, however, the
>movie documents the intentional erasure of its legacy of racial
>violence and economic exploitation. This legacy, she shows,
>structured not only the plot of the novel from which the screenplay
>was taken, but also the Florida film industry of which Vitagraph was
>a part.
>>Debarred from participating in either sexology or the film industry,
>African-American women often used fiction as a venue for
>articulating their thoughts and beliefs about race, gender and
>sexuality. Chapter Three explores Pauline E. Hopkins' novels
>_Contending Forces_ and _Winona_, arguing that the barely
>articulated homoeroticism of both novels "circulates as part of
>Hopkins' exploration of the barriers to desire imposed by the color
>line" (p. 11). Chapter Four continues this argument in the context
>of James Weldon Johnson's famous _Autobiography of an Ex-Colored
>Man_. Though the _Autobiography_ has often been read as its author
>described it-the story of "some colored man who had married white"
>(p. 111)-Somerville demonstrates that it is also a story about the
>sexual fluidity of a man who lives in motion across the boundaries
>his culture insists are solid and impermeable. Finally, Chapter
>Five examines Jean Toomer's more radical "racial disidentification"
>(p. 130), that is, his refusal to take part in the cultural fiction
>of firmly bounded races.
>>While the first two chapters examine the historical intersection of
>race and sexuality in the nascent cultural institutions of sexology
>and cinema, the following three perform close readings of works by
>canonical African-American writers. Although each chapter
>contributes to the larger argument, the way Somerville shifts focus
>between the first and second halves of the book sometimes obscures
>the relationship of the parts to the whole. This presents a problem
>for the part of Somerville's project aimed at persuading readers of
>the value of merging the conventional strategies and interests of
>queer historical studies with African-American literary and cultural
>studies. Certainly each chapter demonstrates the value of sexual
>interpretation of racialized subjects, and vice versa; yet the
>difference between the text-centered analyses and context-driven
>historical interpretations remains striking.
>>Admittedly this difference is partly stylistic, but it also reflects
>the fact that Somerville's historical argument about the shift from
>bodies to desires fades from the center of analysis after the second
>chapter. In fact, chapters three through five seem to suggest that
>both systems of differentiation and classification remained in play
>for some time. Therefore, the change she describes might best be
>thought of as an "uneven d evelopment," to borrow Mary Poovey's
>phrase about the changing ideologies of gender in Victorian Britain
>[1]. When historical change is viewed in this light, the question of
>causality must arise--why set these developments in racial/sexual
>discourse in motion, and what sorts of factors governed the pace and
>extent to which they were adopted or explored by ordinary Americans?
>Somerville's answer to the first question is a brief reference to
>Gilded Age whites' perceptions that their political dominance over
>the nation was in peril.
>>While this seems reasonably accurate as an observation about the
>political life of the late nineteenth and early twentieth centuries,
>it is thin as an explanation for dramatic shifts in the organization
>of both racial and sexual thought. Neither does it speak directly to
>the question of why her three authors mobilized the
>culturally-available variants of racialized and sexualized humanity
>in such fascinatingly different ways. Thus historians are likely to
>see weaknesses in _Queering the Color Line_ that will probably not
>bother literary scholars to any significant degree: and that
>difference suggests that the work has not quite achieved its goal of
>modeling a satisfyingly interdisciplinary cultural scholarship.
>>In the first chapter, where Somerville sets the stage for the
>argument of the book as a whole, her discussion of the
>nineteenth-century tendency to think about both race and sex in
>terms of mixture rests in part on her interpretation of sexual
>hierarchies as analogues to racial ones. She argues that mulattos
>and "intermediate" sexual types occupied similar conceptual spaces,
>in part because emergent theories of sexuality drew on existing
>theories of race. But some of the quotations she offers as evidence
>of this borrowing refer to a hierarchy of races that did not, in
>fact, work according to the logic of mixture (p. 32). In such
>hierarchies, white Europeans, red Native Americans, yellow Asians,
>tawny Polynesians, and black Africans were all understood as "pure"
>racial types. It is true that the "reds," "yellows," and "tawnys"
>were often represented as "between" whites and blacks in terms of
>physical beauty and the achievements of their civilizations, yet
>their "intermediate" status was not understood to derive from any
>mixture of the extremes between which they stood: such people were
>not "biracial," as Somerville suggests (p. 32). This raises the
>question of whether the "intermediate sex" might not have been
>constructed as an equally "pure" type. If it was not, the
>parallelism between the logics of sexual and racial classification
>was less consistent that Somerville argues. It therefore seems
>possible that Somerville's argument about mediation and mixture
>rests on a simplified understanding of the multiple structures
>according to which nineteenth-century racial science assigned value
>to different peoples and cultures.
>>To be fair, Somerville's focus on "race" is explicitly limited to
>discussions of the conceptual and social relationships between white
>and black Americans (p. 13); her lack of attention to the "reds" and
>"yellows" probably stems at least as much from her choice about
>where to set the boundaries of her study as it does from inattention
>to the Byzantine convolutions of the history of racialist thought.
>Yet her occlusion of those not-quite-intermediate races has
>consequences in the way she reads two of the novels that provide the
>basis for the second half of the book. In one, Pauline Hopkins'
>_Winona_, the mulatto heroine is introduced in terms that make her
>sound like a character from _Hiawatha_: she has brown braids and
>trails her slim brown hand over the side of her canoe (p.100-101).
>Somerville's very interesting discussion of Winona's adventures in
>blackface and male attire focuses on the way that her Blackening
>makes her homoerotic romance with a white man possible. When Winona
>puts on the makeup that renders her light skin more visibly mulatto,
>she also puts on a highly eroticized gender ambiguity, so that she
>passes for "the prettiest specimen of boyhood" her white friend has
>even seen (p. 102).
>>Somerville shows that the love and desire between Winona and her
>white friend are enabled by the complementary fictions of racial
>difference and sexual sameness. Yet surely it is important that
>Hopkins' narrative of racial and sexual transition and illusion is
>generated precisely by means of the contrast between the natural
>purity of the apparently Seneca maiden and the sexuality associated
>with Blackness, and especially with Black masculinity. Similarly,
>Somerville performs a sensitive reading of a pivotal scene in Jean
>Toomer's short story "Withered Skin of Berries." In this scene, a
>mulatto man who is passing for white calls himself an "Indian" as
>part of his effort to convince his homophobic, football-playing
>white friend that it is safe to give way to the desire between them
>(pp. 147-148). Somerville describes this scene as one in which
>"the black-white dichotomy is displaced onto an Indian/white axis"
>(p. 147). But while Somerville is convincing about the way that the
>desire between these two men is enabled by the perception that they
>are of different races, her interpretation does not explain the way
>in which this scene depicts Native American bodies as importantly
>outside the economy of race and sexuality that governs relationships
>between whites and blacks. In both of these instances, Somerville's
>comparatively thin treatment of races which are neither white nor
>black limits her analysis; and the thinness of this treatment
>ultimately derives not only from the way she has defined her subject
>matter, but also from the way in which she reduces
>nineteenth-century racial hierarchies to the relationships between
>whites, Blacks, and their "mixed" mulatto offspring.
>>Despite these reservations, in the last chapter Somerville does
>succeed at modeling a highly fruitful multidisciplinary approach.
>Here Somerville asks, and answers, challenging theoretical questions
>about the relationship between racial and sexual discourse for the
>present as well as for the past. Her chapter on Jean Toomer,
>"'Queer to Myself as I Am To You,'" offers a highly convincing
>account of Toomer's fascination with the word "queer." She
>demonstrates that he used the term as a sign for both sexual and
>racial ambiguity; at the same time, Somerville emphasizes our
>scholarly stakes in making this case, and asks us to think about the
>relationship between our contemporary concerns and those of the
>historical subjects we study. The result is a breathtaking
>reassessment of Toomer's refusal to identify himself as
>African-American-a refusal which Somerville sees not as a
>repudiation of his "real" race but rather as a refusal to live, or
>to write, as though racial and sexual identities were solidly
>factual, unchanging conditions of human being. In sum, though
>_Queering the Color Line_ has some of the weaknesses characteristic
>of ambitious first books, it is a rewarding and valuable addition to
>the growing literature exploring the relationship between race and
>sexuality in American culture.
>> Copyright (c) 2001 by H-Net, all rights reserved. This work
> may be copied for non-profit educational use if proper credit
> is given to the author and the list. For other permission,
> please contact H-Net@h-net.msu.edu.
___________________________________________________________________
From: <mswann@interchange.ubc.ca>
Subject: [histsex] references sought!
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 08:39:58 -0800
Hello,
I am doing a comp. area in the history of sexuality focusing on key theoretical shifts 1900-2000.
Any references, suggestions or direction would be much appreciated! While I want to stick
closely to sociological theory I will deal with important works from any field. I'm working with
Becki Ross at UBC, doing my Ph.D. in Educational Studies and writing my thesis on the history
of sex education in BC.
Any input would be greatly appreciated,
Michelle Swann
___________________________________________________________________From: Europamoon7@aol.com
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 17:44:38 EST
Subject: Re: [histsex] references sought!
Michelle,
The most significant turning point, to me, in sexual attitudes occurred
because of the development of the birth control pill. We also have to give
Hollywood a hand at influencing revolutionary sexual thought and behavior.
Good luck,
Carmen
___________________________________________________________________Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 10:36:02 -0800 (PST)
From: Lisa Diguardi <diguardi@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [histsex] 19th century men/men photo
Did you ever get any response on this? If it's something you
still need let me know, I know someone who might be able to help
you.
-Lisa
___________________________________________________________________From: Europamoon7@aol.com
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 15:10:00 EST
Subject: Re: [histsex] references sought!
Jen
What do you consider the most significant force behind the change of sexual
behavior?
Carmen
___________________________________________________________________Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 06:47:19 -0800 (PST)
From: Jennifer Ball <JenniferLBall@excite.com>
Subject: Re: [histsex] references sought!
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Michelle and Carmen,
I agree the pill is significant, but I don't feel it is the most significant
change. I think that conclusion ignores significant changes which took
place in the 1930s, 1940s and 1950s. There are several assumptions about use
and attitudes hidden in the assertion the pill is the most significant
change. I should say these conclusions are based on my own research on
contraception in the US during the 1940s and 1950s.
Jen
On Mon, 19 Feb 2001 17:44:38 EST, Histsex:For historians of sexuality wrote:
Histsex:For historians of sexuality -
http://homepages.primex.co.uk/~lesleyah/listinf.htm
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Michelle,
The most significant turning point, to me, in sexual attitudes occurred
because of the development of the birth control pill. We also have to
give
Hollywood a hand at influencing revolutionary sexual thought and behavior.
Good luck,
Carmen
___________________________________________________________________Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 08:56:58 -0500
From: Barbara Marshall <bmarshall@trentu.ca>
Subject: RE: [histsex] references sought!
Some of the key references I'd put on my reading list would be (just a
few... feel free to contact me if you want more suggestions!)
Adams, Mary Louise The Trouble with Normal: Postwar Youth and the Making of
Heterosexuality
Bullough, Vern Science in the Bedroom
Hawkes, Gail A Sociology of Sex and Sexuality
Irvine, Janice Disorders of Desire
McLaren, Angus Twentieth Century Sexuality
Teifer, Lenore Sex is Not a Natural Act
Weeks, Jeffrey Sexuality
Best of luck, Barb.
*****************
Barbara L. Marshall
Associate Professor, Sociology and Women's Studies
Trent University
Peterborough, ON Canada K9J 7B8
www.trentu.ca/sociology/bmarshall
___________________________________________________________________Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 05:03:42 -0800 (PST)
From: Jennifer Ball <JenniferLBall@excite.com>
Subject: Re: [histsex] references sought!
Carmen,
I will give a more detailed answer than this, but I haven't the time right
now. I guess to give you a full answer I need to start with more questions.
Are we talking about technology or cultural/social attitudes? What region?
Are we looking through categories of race, class gender, sexuality,
religion?
I don't think there is one most significant factor. The Pill is up there,
however, it is also largely significant for hetereosexual women of a
specific demographic. The widespread use of contraceptions in general had a
huge impact. They seperated procreation from sexual intercourse. Sexual
pleasure became an acknowledge end in and of itself for respectable
couples. I think this divorcing of the 2 for heterosexual couples created a
space for people to conceive of sexual pleasure along a wider sliding scale.
Not to raise an evil spector, but AIDS did and STDs did a tremendous amount
to wake people up to the fluidity of sexuality. This is a really limited
answer. I hope it gives you a clue of my gemeral opinion.
take care,
Jen
___________________________________________________________________
Date: 21 Feb 2001 14:24:09 -0000
From: "dick gifford" <dickgifford@2hb.net>
Subject: [histsex] Of ourselves
Folks,
There are two of here, a sort of primitive think-tank. We began nearly ten years ago discussing (over beer) why men behave the way they do. This led to discussions of why women react to masculine behaviour the way they do. The chance finding of Sandra Harding's (ed.) Discovering Reality led to an on-going familiarisation with the methods of cultural historians, critical theorists, and psychoanalytically-oriented feminist thinkers.
We have a broadly historical, cross-cultural, and interdisciplinary interest in the causal inter-relatedness of sense deprivation, epistemic conditions, and brain development. Enforced celibacy, the proscription of homoeroticism, the demonizing of agaptism (unverifiable intimacy), and epidemic asceticism are considered, in our opinion, strategic in and symptomatic of what Nietzsche referred to as "the transvaluation of all ancient values."
Authoritatively -- or as closely as one may approach an authoritative basis -- Freud intuited that there was an organic component to repression, but neither Freud nor his successors followed up on this intuition.
Argumentatively, although Marx, for his part, fairly lamented the sense deprivation of industrial workers under laissez-faire capitalism, such was the state of the neurosciences in his day that he could not have suspected that there had been an historical subtractive (or deprivational) factor to human evolution.
We suspect that late antique forces involved in the furthering of religious conformity (and,
necessarily, in the "dealing" with mysteries, an intensification of gender polarity) are implicated
in the imperative to perform reproductively and in the erotic emphasis on the biological
differences of the sexes. The urgency to verify sexual abstinence by visual and/or olfactory
examination of the feminine genital is such an antiquated imperative in Christianised European
society that we have not seen mention of it so far in any of the cultural and gender theoretical
texts with which we are so far familiar. Coincidentally, the prescription of a reproductive
performance is the prescription of a verifiable performance.
Dick.
___________________________________________________________________Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 18:09:22 +0000 (GMT)
From: M Houlbrook <mhoulb@essex.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: [histsex] Of ourselves
In PLAIN English...?
On 21 Feb 2001, dick gifford wrote:
> Histsex:For historians of sexuality - http://homepages.primex.co.uk/~lesleyah/listinf.htm
___________________________________________________________________Subject: RE: Re: [histsex] Of ourselves
From: "reeder@sirius.com" <reeder@sirius.com>
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 14:03:02 -0500
And I thought it was just me.
Dick wrote:
"Discovering Reality led to an on-going familiarisation with the methods of cultural historians, critical
theorists, and psychoanalytically-oriented feminist thinkers. "
I could have intuited that from the other words you wrote.
Greg Reeder
http://www.egyptology.com
From: M Houlbrook mhoulb@essex.ac.uk
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 18:09:22 +0000 (GMT)
In PLAIN English...?
On 21 Feb 2001, dick gifford wrote:
> Histsex:For historians of sexuality - http://homepages.primex.co.uk/~lesleyah/listinf.htm
> ___________________________________________________________________From: "Rictor Norton" <norton@rictor.freeserve.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [histsex] reviews?
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 18:59:47 -0000
Chauncey's book Gay New York is reviewed at the International Gay and
Lesbian Review, at
http://www.usc.edu/isd/archives/oneigla/onepress/reviews/gayny.html
Incidentally, I recently added a list of 70 online reviews of books on gay
history to my website, at the bottom of the page at
http://www.infopt.demon.co.uk/gayhist.htm
--
Rictor Norton, London
mailto:norton@rictor.freeserve.co.uk
http://www.infopt.demon.co.uk
___________________________________________________________________Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 08:14:48 +1300
From: "Walter Cook" <Walter.Cook@natlib.govt.nz>
Subject: Re: [histsex] Of ourselves
But after all that, did you reach a conclusion as to why men behave the way they do (and how do they behave?), and why women react to masculine behaviour the way they do (however that is) ?
Just curious
>>> dickgifford@2hb.net 02/22/01 03:24 >>>
___________________________________________________________________Date: 23 Feb 2001 14:17:35 -0000
From: "dick gifford" <dickgifford@2hb.net>
Subject: Re: [histsex] Of ourselves
On Fri, 23 Feb 2001 08:14:48 +1300 Walter Cook <Walter.Cook@natlib.govt.nz> wrote:
>Histsex:For historians of sexuality - http://homepages.primex.co.uk/~lesleyah/listinf.htm
>Hi Walter,
To answer your question, You might say so (meaning: some whys and wherefores of some fashion or another).
I was going to mention (before I received your message) that the exigences of women's writing has brought about a relaxation of perception as to what meets accepted standards of academic prose writing. We see this with the increasing acceptance of the method of interweaving with lineal exposition of such materials as personal anecdote, real or contrived personal journal extracts, and creative fiction. That is, the plain english of "situated knowledge."
Just in case, however, Are there articulations or configurations of sexuality which may potentially reveal the hegemonic agency of the Symbolic?
(Yikes!)
Let me, instead, think about your question for a few days.
Regards,
Dick
-------------
>>But after all that, did you reach a conclusion as to why men behave the way they do (and how do they behave?), and why women react to masculine behaviour the way they do (however that is) ?
>Just curious
___________________________________________________________________
From: "Alexander David Fairgrieve" <s9800905@chelt.ac.uk>
Subject: RE: [histsex] references sought!
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 19:19:41 -0000
I may be new to this but has anyone thought of what the effect of the WW2
had on sexual freedom?
Alex
___________________________________________________________________
From: "Alexander David Fairgrieve" <s9800905@chelt.ac.uk>
Subject: RE: [histsex] references sought!
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 19:29:39 -0000
At cheltenham college of Higher Education we have just finished a sexuality
awareness week, and with out to much detail it certainly opened up a
'Pandors Box' of hiden homophobia, but that is not why i have replied. The
question of sexual freedom was largly to do with the increasing force of
Lesbians standing up for their rights. The whole womens movement was founded
by Lesbians, and their desier to be treated equally. Equally then ment being
then ment having the same rights as men. Sex has long been the talking point
for male discussion, adn females in their attempt for equality have taken,
in my opinion, the right to talk about and act out their sexaul freedom.
There are many pro's and con's to this, often from a religous point of view
sexual freedom should be less of a goal to aspire to. I hope this is of any
help, and that it provides food for thought.
Alex
___________________________________________________________________From: "Lesley Hall" <lesleyah@primex.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [histsex] references sought!
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 20:05:25 -0000
>Lesbians standing up for their rights. The whole womens movement was
founded
>by Lesbians, and their desier to be treated equally. Equally then ment
being
>then ment having the same rights as men.
I am sure that I am not the only person on this list who finds this a quite
extraordinary statement! Did 'sexual awareness' open up any Pandora's boxes
of hidden misogyny, or wasn't this, unlike the homophobia, hidden?
Lesley Hall
lesleyah@primex.co.uk
website http://homepages.primex.co.uk/~lesleyah
___________________________________________________________________From: "Barb Marshall" <bmarshall@trentu.ca>
Subject: RE: [histsex] references sought!
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 15:27:23 -0500
No. Lesley you certainly aren't the only list member who found this an
extraordinary statement! It's quite impossible to make any simple kind of
argument about 'the' women's movement (which one? where? when?), let alone
the vexed and varied relationships between feminism and sexuality (not to
mention relationships between feminism, sexuality and socialism,
nationalism, abolitionism, prohibition, birth control, prostitution,
pornography, eugenics, civil rights and the gazillion other things that
facilitate alliances at some points and create divisions at others).
Yikes...
Barbara L. Marshall
Associate Professor, Sociology and Women's Studies
Trent University, Peterborough, ON Canada K9J 7B8
www.trentu.ca/sociology/bmarshall
___________________________________________________________________Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 15:44:40 -0500
From: Fred Nesta <nesta_f@spcvxa.spc.edu>
Subject: Re: [histsex] references sought!
I once asked my wife, who was 10 in 1968, what the Sexual Revolution meant
to her. Nothing, she said: the world she grew up in had always been there.
This week I saw a play about a woman who lives with and is a lover of 2 gay
men. Sexual Revolution? It was "Design for Living" written in 1933 by Noel
Coward. I wonder how much of my view of historic sexuality was conditioned
by the world of the 50's and Lucy and Ricky's twin beds.
Fred Nesta
___________________________________________________________________From: p.lincoln@att.net
Subject: Re: [histsex] references sought!
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 00:11:42 +0000
the evolved understanding of the biological reasons for
new life -- as opposed to the understanding that women
were solitary and divine creators -- and so -- to
patriarchy and the need to KNOW.
___________________________________________________________________Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 19:27:36 -0500
From: Ann Branaman <branaman@fau.edu>
Subject: Re: [histsex] references sought!
I'm home!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
At 12:11 AM 2/23/01 +0000, you wrote:
>Histsex:For historians of sexuality -
>http://homepages.primex.co.uk/~lesleyah/listinf.htm
>>--------------------------- ListBot Sponsor --------------------------
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>----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>the evolved understanding of the biological reasons for
>new life -- as opposed to the understanding that women
>were solitary and divine creators -- and so -- to
>patriarchy and the need to KNOW.
___________________________________________________________________
From: p.lincoln@att.net
Subject: Re: [histsex] references sought!
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 00:47:28 +0000
HELLO! An interesting sedgeway, eh?
> Histsex:For historians of sexuality -
> http://homepages.primex.co.uk/~lesleyah/listinf.htm
> > --------------------------- ListBot Sponsor --------------------------
> Start Your Own FREE Email List at http://www.listbot.com/links/joinlb
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> > I'm home!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> ___________________________________________________________________From: Kazetnik@aol.com
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 15:56:04 EST
Subject: Re: [histsex] references sought!
> The whole womens movement was
> founded by Lesbians, and their desier to be treated equally.
> Er, I'll admit to being a tad too young to remember it first hand from the
beginning, but from what I understand from written sources and personal
conversations, this rewrite of history is surely going to peeve all the
heterosexual and bisexual women who put sisterhood above sexuality in their
mutual working with lesbians for equality. But maybe you know better.....
As a queer person (Person of Queerness?), lesbian, dyke, whatever, I find it
no end annoying to have this Lesbians-are-the-true-feminists argument being
hauled out in this day and age with its implicit concommitant that
heterosexual women are sleeping with the enemy/suffering from false
consciousness/needed nice Lesbians to teach them they were oppressed. Drivel,
in my less than humble opinion. What chances are there of really
understanding the dim and distant past if we will insist on misrepresenting
more recent history?
>From a grumpy insomniac
Chris White
P.S. Isn't divorce absolutely crucial to the history of women's changing
sexuality?
___________________________________________________________________From: "Lesley Hall" <lesleyah@primex.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [histsex] references sought!
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 21:23:04 -0000
>From a grumpy insomniac=20
Chris White=20
P.S. Isn't divorce absolutely crucial to the history of women's changing
sexuality?
It also occurred to me that birth control and abortion were pretty
central issues to the '2nd Wave' of feminism (aka 'Women's Lib'...) as well as featuring fairly strongly as feminist causes during what is
often deemed a hiatus for feminism after 1919... Which does argue a significant level of some kind of heterosexual activity going on.
Not to mention the C19th roots in issues around married women's
property, custody of children, right to refuse 'conjugal rights', as
well as divorce.
Lesley Hall
lesleyah@primex.co.uk
website http://homepages.primex.co.uk/~lesleyah
___________________________________________________________________From: "Brian Dempsey" <editor@scolag.org.uk>
Subject: RE: [histsex] references sought!
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 22:26:00 -0000
Why are idiotic messages like this being sent to the whole list? Think a
little, for goodness sake.
Brian
-----Original Message-----
From: histsex-return-2174-53482989@listbot.com
[mailto:histsex-return-2174-53482989@listbot.com]On Behalf Of
p.lincoln@att.net
Sent: 23 February 2001 00:47
To: Histsex:For historians of sexuality
Subject: Re: [histsex] references sought!
Histsex:For historians of sexuality -
http://homepages.primex.co.uk/~lesleyah/listinf.htm
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HELLO! An interesting sedgeway, eh?
> Histsex:For historians of sexuality -
> http://homepages.primex.co.uk/~lesleyah/listinf.htm
___________________________________________________________________
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 14:39:20 -0800 (PST)
From: Jennifer Ball <JenniferLBall@excite.com>
Subject: RE: [histsex] references sought!
I have to say I'm enjoying so much of what is being said here. It just goes
to show sexuality is a multifaceted entity. i think it might help to state
whether we are talking about public or private constructions and to which
groups we are addressing. Men, women, LBGT, het, licit, illicit, radical,
conservative etc. Oh thanks someone for bringing up religion. I think we
forget this has a tremndous and deeply ambiguous influence.
I'm still working on a better answer.
Jen
On Fri, 23 Feb 2001 15:27:23 -0500, Histsex:For historians of sexuality
wrote:
Histsex:For historians of sexuality -
http://homepages.primex.co.uk/~lesleyah/listinf.htm
___________________________________________________________________
From: MillerJimE@aol.com
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 21:56:30 EST
Subject: Re: [histsex] references sought!
I think that sexuality loosened up considerably in the 1920's, at least
in America's urban areas. However, some of the openness was lost during the
Depression. Even so, there was a wide range of sexuality represented in
movies and other art forms up until WWII. However, in the late 1940's and
1950's there was a deliberate suppression of sexuality including such
instruments as the Hayes code. The sexual liberation of the 1960's and
1970's was not completely new, but followed some of the patterns of the
1920's. And what happened at the beginning of the 1920's? Women got the
vote and began to flex their new political power.
Jim Miller
___________________________________________________________________
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 21:11:12 -0700 (MST)
From: Tim Hodgdon <Tim.Hodgdon@asu.edu>
Subject: Re: [histsex] references sought!
On Fri, 23 Feb 2001 MillerJimE@aol.com wrote:
> I think that sexuality loosened up considerably in the 1920's, at least
> in America's urban areas. However, some of the openness was lost during the
> Depression. Even so, there was a wide range of sexuality represented in
> movies and other art forms up until WWII. However, in the late 1940's and
> 1950's there was a deliberate suppression of sexuality including such
> instruments as the Hayes code. The sexual liberation of the 1960's and
> 1970's was not completely new, but followed some of the patterns of the
> 1920's. And what happened at the beginning of the 1920's? Women got the
> vote and began to flex their new political power.
> Jim Miller
Jim--Your post made me think of Timothy Gilfoyle's book, _City of Eros._
Have you seen it? I don't mean to over-react if you meant your comments as
off-the-cuff, but given the extent of 19th-c. prostitution, and then the
increasing demand on women within companionate marriage in the new century
to provide the kind of sexual variety that prostitutes had provided, I
wonder if it would be more accurate to characterize the changes you point
to as shifts in the practice of sexual politics, rather than suppression
of sexuality? I mean, even in more recent times we witness Marabel
Morgan's "Total Woman" and evangelist Jimmy Swaggert's _in flagrante
delictio_ arrest in a motel room. Even the fulminators against
"immorality" aren't against sex, if politics is what they do as well as
what they say. They are very consistent, however, when it comes to trying
to trying to obfuscate how men exercise sexual power. In short, even from
a non-postmodernist perspective, the repressive hypothesis doesn't, in my
view, explain the historical evidence very well.
What do you think?
Tim Hodgdon
Ph.D. candidate
Department of History
Arizona State University
Tim.Hodgdon@asu.edu
___________________________________________________________________From: "theo van der meer" <thamvdme@hetnet.nl>
Subject: Re: [histsex] references sought!
Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 10:25:30 +0100
Personally I would vote for pope Paul VI and his prohibition of birth =
control in 1967 (I think it was) in Humanae Vitae as a(nother) major =
influence on 20th century sexuality. Contrary to its intentions Humanae =
Vitae disseminated knowledge that was not even then widely available to =
everyone and which affected not just women in their procreative years. I =
was 16 at the time, youngest of 12 children in a very orthodox catholic =
working class family in Holland. My mother, who was 55 when the pope =
issued his encyclique, had had hardly any education whatsoever and =
until then had never heard about birth control, she did not know about =
masturbation, or homosexuality, or about practically anything related to =
sexuality. Humanae Vitae changed her live, as I think it did with many =
people of her age and back ground. She felt outraged and betrayed and =
blamed the Church for her ignorance. Although she remained a catholic =
until the end, she was never a dutiful daughter of the Church anymore, =
and before the sixty's were over she had caught up with at least some =
(technical) basics of sexuality. That affected of course her =
relationships with her children, including myself. At least I didn't =
have to tell her anymore what homosexuality was when I came out to her =
in 1970, and thanks to her changed attitudes towards the Catholic church =
it was not as difficult for me of for her as one might otherwise have =
expected.=20
It is anecdotal evidence, no doubt, for my thesis about Humanae Vitae, =
yet how many anecdotes does one need to turn it into viable history.
Best regards
Theo van der Meer
___________________________________________________________________From:
"Rictor Norton" <norton@rictor.freeserve.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [histsex] sexological cases?
Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 10:26:59 -0000
On the subject of "trafficking in cases" I assume you are already familiar
with the correspondence between John Addington Symonds and Ellis regarding
the 16 autobiographical case histories of English gay men that Symonds
organized for inclusion in _Sexual Inversion_. (Ellis knew of only 1 English
case when he began his research.) These letters are in the last part of Vol
3 of the Symonds Letters edited by Schueller and Peters in 1969 (I don't
know what Ellis's letters say about the matter). Especially useful is
Symonds's letter of 12 February 1893 in which he observes "I am rather
afraid that the diffusion of books by Ulrichs, Krafft-Ebing, and others, may
tend to the formation of a kind of 'fixed style' in these confessions. It is
important then to base conclusions upon obviously candid and uninspired
[i.e. not preconceived] records." And he goes on to explain how he compiled
the list of questions to elicit these confessions from his acquaintances. I
don't know what survives in any Ellis archives: it would be interesting to
see the actual questionnaires together with the detailed answers if they
survive, and it would also be interesting to see some of the case studies
which Symonds supplied with the proviso that they remain unpublished, one of
which was that of his early lover Norman Moor. In a letter of 22 February
1893 he discusses this case and says he may try to get permission to publish
it, because he finds it interesting for showing a man who "has been able to
marry and forget, and at the same time is so thoroughly an urning that, if
circumstances had not thwarted his inclinations, he would undoubtedly have
remained true to his specific homosexual bias." Symonds of course provided a
case study for himself, and we can identify the persons behind some of the
other cases. Ellis's lesbian wife provided the lesbian case studies. After
Symonds's death, Ellis issued a new edition of _Sexual Inversion_ in which
he dropped some of the cases provided by Symonds and substituted cases
gathered by himself, which affected the tenor and conclusion of the book
(especially regarding neuropatholotical origins) (fulfilling Symonds's
distrust of Ellis's sexological interpretations, expressed in a letter to
Edward Carpenter, whose own case history was included), and which might make
an interesting little study by itself. The collaboration between Symonds and
Ellis, especially the contradiction between public advocacy and private
convictions, is discussed by Wayne Koestenbaum, _Double Talk: The Erotics of
Male Literary Collaboration_ (1989), pp. 43-67; and more recently by
Jonathan Kemp, "A Problem in Gay Heroics: Symonds and l'Amour de
l'impossible", in John Premble (ed.), _John Addington Symonds: Culture and
the Demon Desire_ (2000), pp. 46-61.
--
Rictor Norton, London
mailto:norton@rictor.freeserve.co.uk
http://www.infopt.demon.co.uk
___________________________________________________________________
From: "Lesley Hall" <lesleyah@primex.co.uk>
Subject: Re: [histsex] reasons for changing sexual mores
Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 15:25:14 -0000
Theo van der Meer wrote=20
'Personally I would vote for pope Paul VI and his prohibition of birth =
control in 1967 (I think it was) in Humanae Vitae as a(nother) major =
influence on 20th century sexuality. Contrary to its intentions Humanae =
Vitae disseminated knowledge that was not even then widely available to =
everyone and which affected not just women in their procreative years.'
Would there not have been an earlier version of this around 1930 with =
the issue of Casti Connubii (?sp), which laid down a hard line on birth =
control, abortion, and sterilisation (and ? also artificial =
insemination)? Or did this only affect priests and how they handled =
these issues when they came up in confession? In the British press, =
however, furious attacks on birth control were common in the RC press =
after 1930, and pretty well confined to that sector by that date.
Lesley Hall
lesleyah@primex.co.uk
website http://homepages.primex.co.uk/~lesleyah
___________________________________________________________________
___________________________________________________________________Date: 24 Feb 2001 22:41:09 -0000
From: "Histsex:For historians of sexuality" <histsex-owner@listbot.com>
Subject: [histsex] Various admin matters
1) Re unsubbing - messages sent for this purpose to
histsex-unsubscribe@listbot.com should be left blank. The standard form at
the foot of messages is perhaps misleading when it says 'write to'.
2) Please could listmembers change message headers when the subject
changes? (though I know I've been an offender on this count)
3) Also, please remember to snip preceding messages when responding!
4) New listmembers (or older members who have not yet done so) are invited
to introduce themselves and their interests in history of sexuality to the
list at large.
5) Anyone who is interested in being added to the History of Sexuality
Research Register (http://homepages.primex.co.uk/~lesleyah/hofsresr.htm)
please contact me at lesleyah@primex.co.uk with your details.
6)List archives more than 1 year old are available via my website; more
recent archives are on the listbot.com site.
That's all folks!
Lesley
histsex-owner@listbot.com
lesleyah@primex.co.uk
http://homepages.primex.co.uk/~lesleyah
___________________________________________________________________ From: "Alexander David Fairgrieve" <s9800905@chelt.ac.uk>
Subject: RE: [histsex] Various admin matters
Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2001 15:16:27 -0000
Hello there,
When writing my last response I did wonder what type of conduct was
expected, thanks for pointing them out.
Regarding the statements on lesbians forfronting the feminist movement.
To let everyone know the statement I made on friday was colmination of the
repsonses and views that were expressed during the debates and discussions
on sexuality, equality and sexual health. I was feeling very down that day
as the LGBT had experienced a certain degree of hidden homophobia and
aggression.
I'm trying to keep this short. I'm a third year student studying human
resource managemnet but i have a keen intrest in the subjects that are
disscused in this forum, which i believe to be extremly valuable to us all
in understanding what can be difficult topics of discussion.
I look forward to future debates.
yours kindly
Alex.
P.S. Carmen don't leave.
___________________________________________________________________From: Mal123nash@aol.com
Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2001 10:29:51 EST
Subject: [histsex] Gay Indiana State Senator [of 1871] busted for sex
John D. Sarnighausen, a preacher and a distant cousin of Karl Ulrichs, left
Germany when he was busted for sex with a soldier. Sarnighausen then became
an Indiana State Senator [1871]. Details (in English):
http://www.angelfire.com/fl3/celebration2000/sareng.html
With best wishes,
Mike (and Paul)
http://www.angelfire.com/fl3/celebration2000/memory.html
<A HREF="http://www.angelfire.com/fl3/celebration2000/memory.html">Karl Heinrich Ulrichs: First Gay Activist: MEMORY BOOK 2000</A>
PS. Your entry in Karl's Guest Book would be greatly appreciated!
___________________________________________________________________Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 08:31:56 +1300
From: "Walter Cook" <Walter.Cook@natlib.govt.nz>
Subject: RE: [histsex] references sought!
Come on Brian, give the idiots a chance to challenge the knowing. How else would this set of instructive and entertaining responses have come about
Walter
>>> editor@scolag.org.uk 02/24/01 11:26 >>>
Histsex:For historians of sexuality - http://homepages.primex.co.uk/~lesleyah/listinf.htm
--------------------------- ListBot Sponsor --------------------------
Start Your Own FREE Email List at http://www.listbot.com/links/joinlb
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Why are idiotic messages like this being sent to the whole list? Think a
little, for goodness sake.
Brian
___________________________________________________________________
Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2001 12:49:58 -0800 (PST)
From: Stephen Morris <smmorris58@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [histsex] introductions
Hi, all!
Since Lesley asked us to introduce ourselves, here
goes --
I am an adjunct instructor at the New School for
Social Research in New York City. I teach early
Church and medieval history. I mostly work with
patristics, western and Byzantine, covering a plethora
of subjects covered by sermons, epistles,
commentaries, etc.
One of my current projects involves the early-medieval
(mostly Byzantine, Greek, Russian, etc.) attitudes
toward homosexuality and the liturgical rites for
blessing various relationships.
Even the [older] members of the forum should introduce
themselves, for the benefit of us new folks!
Stephen
___________________________________________________________________Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 05:47:40 -0800 (PST)
From: Stephen Morris <smmorris58@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re:[histsex] introductions, again
Hi again, all!
I forgot to mention that another of my current
projects involves the early Christian/medieval
opinions (good/bad/indiff.) to genitalia and gender.
If anyone has any favorite passages, please let me
know.
Thanks.
Stephen
___________________________________________________________________Date: 26 Feb 2001 15:24:36 -0000
From: "dick gifford" <dickgifford@2hb.net>
Subject: Re:[histsex] introductions, again
On Mon, 26 Feb 2001 05:47:40 -0800 (PST) Stephen Morris <smmorris58@yahoo.com> wrote:
>Histsex:For historians of sexuality - http://homepages.primex.co.uk/~lesleyah/listinf.htm
>>--------------------------- ListBot Sponsor --------------------------
>Start Your Own FREE Email List at http://www.listbot.com/links/joinlb
>----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>Hi again, all!
>>I forgot to mention that another of my current
>projects involves the early Christian/medieval
>opinions (good/bad/indiff.) to genitalia and gender.
>If anyone has any favorite passages, please let me
>know.
>>Thanks.
>>Stephen
Hi Stephen,
Who was it among the patristic era Christian polemicists or apologists who likened orgasm to
epileptic seizure? I ran across the reference somewhere, but can't remember where.
Dick.
___________________________________________________________________Date: 26 Feb 2001 15:38:58 -0000
From: "dick gifford" <dickgifford@2hb.net>
Subject: Re: [histsex] Of ourselves(2)
On Fri, 23 Feb 2001 08:14:48 +1300 Walter Cook <Walter.Cook@natlib.govt.nz> wrote:
>Histsex:For historians of sexuality - http://homepages.primex.co.uk/~lesleyah/listinf.htm
Hi Walter,
The conversations I mentioned had originally to do with women's assertive sexuality. (Complaints had included, "Too rambunctious," "She liked it," and even "She moved." So, the masculine behaviour we were discussing had something to do with the uneasiness or aversion of some men to sexually assertive women. This behaviour played itself out as the use of language: to criticize a young woman for assertiveness, both directly to her, and (later) in conversation with male confidants.
What, then, was going on in the minds of some men who were "put off" by a woman's assumption of direction and control of intimacy, and by a woman's undisguised (or is it unsuppressed?) pleasurable feelings and sensations?
Why speak to a woman in such a way so as to make her feel guilty for enjoying herself?
I'll continue with our findings (if not conclusions) in a separate posting (under "Findings").
(I thought I'd tag this on top of the original posting in case, by some curious coincidence, we now
have two very recently arrived forum subscribers who have an especial interest in the social and
aesthetic milieu of the earliest centuries of the Common Era.)
Best,
Dick.
>>But after all that, did you reach a conclusion as to why men behave the way they do (and how do they behave?), and why women react to masculine behaviour the way they do (however that is) ?
>Just curious
___________________________________________________________________From: "Brian Dempsey" <editor@scolag.org.uk>
Subject: RE: [histsex] references sought!
Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2001 22:47:33 -0000
For clarity I should state that I objected to the whole list receiving "I'm
home" messages and their ilk. Also messages sent simply to see if the
distribution list still works or inviting people to sign petitions. All of
that seems selfish.
I wouldn't dream of objecting to debate, whether or not I found it relevant
or well-founded. I apologise if anyone involved in debate if they though I
was complaining about them.
Brian
___________________________________________________________________
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 17:29:08 +1300
From: "Walter Cook" <Walter.Cook@natlib.govt.nz>
Subject: Re: [histsex] Of ourselves(2)
Dick, Thankyou for replying to my question. I did not realise you were talking about a particular sort of male attitude to women. Also I was somewhat Mesmerised by phrases like "The hegemonic agency of the Symbolic." I am not familiar with current scholarly glossolalias, and in my experience dictionaries are of limited use in the hands of the uninitiated.
I was interested initially because I think that often the way men in groups talk about women (eg bragging about conquests and expressing sexual attitudes towards women) is more an element in the way men relate to each other than to how they actually relate to the women they know. You seem to be studying some realy dire masculine attitudes if "she liked it " was a problem. Do these sorts of attitudes occur in other cultures (like up the Sepic river where there are tall assertive women and scatty bitchy men if Margaret Meed is to be believed).
Walter
___________________________________________________________________Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2001 05:53:53 -0800 (PST)
From: Stephen Morris <smmorris58@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re:[histsex] introductions, again
Dick:
I saw that recently. I think it may have been
Augustine, who pointed out the burst of lack of
self-control involved in orgasm could spread into
other areas of a person's life and cause a dangerous
self-indulgence and spiritual/emotional inebriation --
not so different from a modern "victim" of any number
of addictions that need 12-step groups, etc. to
survive.
Stephen
> > Who was it among the patristic era Christian
> polemicists or apologists who likened orgasm to
> epileptic seizure? I ran across the reference
> somewhere, but can't remember where.
> > Dick.
___________________________________________________________________
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 15:45:17 +0000 (GMT)
From: Kate Fisher <kate.fisher@applied-social-studies.oxford.ac.uk>
Subject: [histsex] pornography on tv
Hello all,
I've been on the list for years and have not yet introduced myself, not
even after my research was mentioned a couple of months ago!
So first, I conduct oral histories into sexual behaviour, primarily within
marriage, with a focus on birth control, in various parts of
Britain. Jane Rothstein (or anyone else) if you want to contact me, please
do.
I am finally introducing myself because I have a request. Did anyone by
any chance video (and keep) the Channel Four series on the history of
pornography which was shown some time last year (or maybe it was the year
before)? I am hoping to show episode one to my students on 25 March.
Thanks for any help locating this,
Kate
___________________________________________________________________Date: 28 Feb 2001 15:46:21 -0000
From: "dick gifford" <dickgifford@2hb.net>
Subject: [histsex] Attitudes
Hi Walter,
You wrote, "I did not realise that you were talking about about a particular sort of male attitude to women."
The flip-side (why women react to masculine behaviour the way they do) would have to do with those reactions to the things men say to women as well as women's reaction to the way men look at women (especially women they don't know). The first of these would supply the psychiatric community with quite a bit of its stock-in-trade of "disorder", and the second is the subject of a confusing literature in which the term "fetishization" is frequently seen.
There's been so much water under the bridge (with us) that it is hard to recapitulate the labyrinthine(sp?) course of our discussions.
If there are questions I would bring up in a history of sexuality forum these would be (or involve):
What were certain Roman women "putting in the heads" of certain male adolescents that had Roman authorities in such a snit back in the 2nd. century B.C.E.?
2200 years later there is still a strong social interdiction of the involvement of mature women in the socializing of developing males unless that intervention is at arm's-length, and is not seen to contravene societal (and psychoanalytic) objectives of instilling in developing males a mentality of aggression, dominance, and conquest?
Evidence: the "his-teria", media feeding-frenzy, and glaringly gendered bias (or double standard) of two recently well-publicized cases of the "betrayal of trust" of two woman school teachers who became sexually involved with early adolescent males.
These certain Roman women espoused (and indoctrinated) an egalitarian sensibility? ...an egalitarian and matrilineal sensibility? ...a matrifocal sensibility? ...a gynocentric sensibility?
Did they leave any records (that is, any material remains which were not destroyed before the fall of Roman imperialism)?
And, if so, who is to interpret these remains?
Dick.
___________________________________________________________________
Date: 27 Feb 2001 20:48:50 -0000
From: "dick gifford" <dickgifford@2hb.net>
Subject: [histsex] Findings
Hi Walter,
Don't thank me! I here to compare methods with other folks. I'm really interested in the history of sensibility (with sensibilities defined as organizations of understanding involving feelings as well as thought and rationality).
Affectivity, importantly contributive to sensibility, is psychiatrically defined as "susceptibility to affective stimuli."
And attentivity may be provisionally defined, cognitive neurologically, as susceptibility to variances of attentive state (both of the individual, and, ambiently, of an entire culture).
You brought up anthropology....
Have you heard of the work being done by the confederates of the Concordia Sensoria Research
Group based in Montreal? They're working to provide some of the materials toward a
much-needed sociocultural history of the senses in Western civilization.
Cheers!
Dick.
___________________________________________________________________Date: 27 Feb 2001 20:33:26 -0000
From: "dick gifford" <dickgifford@2hb.net>
Subject: Re:[histsex] introductions, again
On Tue, 27 Feb 2001 05:53:53 -0800 (PST) Stephen Morris <smmorris58@yahoo.com> wrote:
Hi Stephen,
And, would this be the first instance to your knowledge of the use of a medical pathological
analogy as descriptive of sexual response?
Dick.
___________________________________________________________________From: "Lesley Hall" <lesleyah@primex.co.uk>
Subject: [histsex] Holey sheets
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 20:01:22 -0000
I've been sent the following query:
>I've recently been told that during the Victorian era a newly-married
couple
>would receive a sheet with a hole as a wedding present. This sheet was
used
>during sex because the woman was not to be looked at.
>>Do you know if this is true, and where I can find out more information
about
>these sheets?
I have heard of this as a practice among certain religious sects and I also
vaguely recall a mention in Margaret Mead (? _Man and Woman_) about a
similar practice in some Native American cultures. Does anyone have any
more/better information on this?
Thanks
Lesley Hall
lesleyah@primex.co.uk
website http://homepages.primex.co.uk/~lesleyah
___________________________________________________________________
From: David Greenberg <david.greenberg@nyu.edu>
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 17:18:17 -0500
Subject: Re: [histsex] Holey sheets
It is still the case today that some Orthodox Jews use such sheets
during intercourse, to avoid unnecessary sensuous body contact. I have
not heard of their use among any other group. David Greenberg, Sociology
Department, New York University, New York, NY
___________________________________________________________________Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 21:06:21 -0500
Subject: Re: [histsex] Holey sheets
From: "Jane Rothstein" <jane_rothstein@mindspring.com>
In terms of Lesley's initial inquiry, I have no leads, though I do find it
fascinating that reports of this same practice pop up in multiple
cultures/time periods, among people known for their supposed prudery.
While it doesn't really answer Lesley's initial inquiry, I've been
interested as well in the last several messages in this thread. I have
always taken the story that Orthodox Jews use a sheet with a hole in it
during sexual intercourse to be a myth. In the modern period, and
especially the 20th century, most Jews, including many Orthodox Jews, who
engaged with modern discourses around (hetero-) sexuality have sought to
highlight traditional Judaism's positive valuation of sex, particularly sex
within marriage. Those that I have studied in the early 20th century US
tend to echo (or at least agree with) social hygienist views on sex; i.e.,
while illegitimate sex, typically sex outside of marriage, is destructive
(specifically in the case of social hygienists, through sex with prostitutes
men could bring disease into families), sex within marriage (& in Judaism at
the appropriate time of the month -- not during menstruation) is healthy,
normal, to be celebrated. There is, thus, by now a significant "tradition"
of apologetics about traditional Judaism's views on sexuality (Shmuely
Boteach is just the latest, though he's certainly made the biggest splash in
American popular culture beyond the Jewish community).
I would, however, raise two caveats. First, like any other culture, Judaism
(including Rabbinic Judaism, out of which came the Talmud, and including
Orthodox Judaism in the modern period) is multivalent. While the major
stream of Judaism may indeed be sex-positive (at least about marital
heterosexuality), there have been and continue to be Judaisms that are more
ascetic when it comes to fleshy matters or to material pleasures in general.
David Biale's book _Eros and the Jews_ discusses this tension well.
Second, however sex-positive the Talmud may be, Talmudic precepts should not
be thought of as the same as actual practice, about which, to be perfectly
frank, we know very little, especially historically speaking. Thus,
although use of a "holey sheet" as a widespread phenomenon may indeed be an
urban myth -- and definitely sounds like something liberal Jews in the early
20th century might have said amongst each other to cast Orthodox Jews as
backward or unenlightened -- I'm willing to believe that in the
oft-contradictory world of cultural practice, there is some kernal of truth
to this. Traditional Judaism's sex-positiveness has to be read against an
abiding emphasis on _tsniut_ (in Hebrew) or modesty. Early 20th century
Jewish discussions of sexuality are replete with efforts to see modesty as
different from prudery or embarrassment, but the effort belies the
possibility that for many they were the same.
While I wouldn't be willing to, say, footnote David Greenberg's message to
support use of a "holey sheet" as a widespread Jewish sexual practice, I
also am not willing to use Greg Downing's website cite (which is
interesting, BTW) as proof that the "holey sheet" is a complete falsehood.
I would be interested to know if anyone has done any survey or ethnographic
or historical research on this.
Jane
Jane Rothstein,
Ph.D. Candidate
Department of History and
Skirball Department of Hebrew and Judaic Studies
New York University
jr231@nyu.edu --> please note the change!
jane_rothstein@mindspring.com
"Racing between mysticism and revolution..."
-- Phil Ochs
___________________________________________________________________
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 16:44:35 -0500
From: David Nicholas Harley <David.N.Harley.4@nd.edu>
Subject: Re: [histsex] Holey sheets
This story about sex through a sheet circulates about Orthodox Jews among
Reform Jews, and about Jews among non-Jews to a lesser extent. It seems to
be entirely mythical and is, for example, entirely dismissed in chapter 34
of Kosher Sex, by Rabbi Shmuley Boteach. The origins of the myth are
obscure, and themselves the source of urban legends. The Talmud (Ketubot
48) certainly insists on nudity.
This belief also turns up as a scene in the 1992 film Como agua para
chocolate (Like Water For Chocolate) by Alfonso Arau, which is based on a
novel by Laura Esquivel, set in the late 19th C (best read in Spanish, but
available in translation). Following the wedding of a young Mexican couple,
a scene from their wedding night shows the new wife nervously arranging a
sheet over herself. Some cinema stills and transcripts at
http://home.t-online.de/home/Andreas.Huelsm/
David Harley
Dept. of History
219 O'Shaughnessy
University of Notre Dame
Notre Dame IN 46556
219-631-7313
___________________________________________________________________
From: David Greenberg <david.greenberg@nyu.edu>
Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 17:22:37 -0500
Subject: Re: [histsex] Holey sheets
Orthodox Jews have confirmed this practice to me, and have told me that
they have seen the sheets, with embroidery around the hole. I have never
seen such a sheet myself, however. David Greenberg, Sociology
Department, New York University.
___________________________________________________________________Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 18:55:05 -0500
From: David Nicholas Harley <David.N.Harley.4@nd.edu>
Subject: Re: [histsex] Holey sheets
David Greenberg wrote:
>Orthodox Jews have confirmed this practice to me, and have told me that
>they have seen the sheets, with embroidery around the hole. I have never
>seen such a sheet myself, however.
1.) Without addressing the facticity of DG's report, it is notable that
this account has the classic structure of an urban legend: a friend of a
friend... We have here no one admitting to using the sheet.
2.) It is possible that we are hearing faint echoes of some fringe Hasidic
groups, engaging in non-Talmudic practices.
3.) There may be a Gentile misunderstanding which has fed back into Jewish
folklore, based perhaps on seeing the talit-katan (taleisim Ktanim) hanging
on a washing line. It might look like a bedsheet with a hole, to the
uninformed. Or perhaps the sheet used for conversion of a woman in the
ritual bath. Or even the sheet with a hole used at Orthodox weddings,
through which only the children may pass.
4.) I am suspicious of some of the users of this story. It is heavily
promoted by such authorities as William Donohue, president of the Catholic
League for Religious and Civil Rights, to evade questions on Catholic
teachings about sexuality. It is also used by secular and Reform Jews,
above all in Israel, to suggest that the Orthodox hypocritically evade the
ritual purity laws.
Two jokes told by Reform Jews, about the Orthodox:
Hershel: Moishe, why are you sleeping with my wife?
Moishe: This is YOUR wife? All wives look the same through a sheet, I guess.
Moishe: This is YOUR wife? All wives look the same through a sheet, I guess.
Hershel: You must be a hit in the Middle East, Moishe.
David Harley
Dept. of History
219 O'Shaughnessy
University of Notre Dame
Notre Dame IN 46556
219-631-7313
___________________________________________________________________Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 19:01:51 -0500 (EST)
From: Gregory {Greg} Downing <gd2@nyu.edu>
Subject: Re: [histsex] Holey sheets
At 05:22 PM 2/28/2001 -0500, you wrote:
>Orthodox Jews have confirmed this practice to me, and have told me that
>they have seen the sheets, with embroidery around the hole. I have never
>seen such a sheet myself, however. David Greenberg, Sociology
>Department, New York University.
>
My mom's friend claimed to have known someone who knew someone who actually
knew the infamous woman who killed her poodle by putting it to dry in the
microwave -- another famous bit of urban folklore. Three of the most common
traits of urban myth and folklore are (1) third- or fourth-hand evidentiary
status, (2) an amusing or titillating or gee-whiz effect, and (3) some kind
of cultural point that resonates with tellers and hearers.
For a debunking of this particular sexual myth, see for example the useful
Urban Legends Reference site maintained by the San Fernando Valley Folklore
Society:
http://www.snopes2.com/
Enter "holes in sheets" after clicking on the "Database Search" link at top
left and you'll get their discussion of the legend.
Greg Downing, at greg.downing@nyu.edu or gd2@nyu.edu
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