Histsex Archives Aug 1999

HISTSEX ARCHIVES: AUGUST 1999

Date: Sun, 01 Aug 1999 13:59:05 +1000

From: Hera Cook <hera.cook@history.usyd.edu.au>

Subject: [Fwd: [Fwd: Maines' Martyrdom and Vibratory Censorship]]

Hi,

I think lesley's comments about physiotherapists are probably spot on. Here

are some more

thoughts I had - unfortunately I don't have the book to hand and these more

specific

questions would be better being checked against the actual text -

Carol Thomas comments on 'Maine's evident scholarship'. I think her use of

sources raises useful questions for historians of sexual behaviours.

Ultimately it was not clear to me what claims Maine was making about the

prevalance of this practice. She appeared to be claiming that this behaviour was

relatively frequent, based primarily upon the level of advertising of the

machines. Is this a valid basis for such claims?

Maine shifts from analysis of texts - discourse - at an international level to

specific material culture. These different types of evidence provide varying

levels and types of proof - indeed they bear different relationships to the

notion of proof.

It is proved to the reader that the objects, vibrators, existed and were

advertised. The proof of the behaviour, that is that these machines were used as

Maine claims, is from other sources but she doesn't distinguish between the nature

of her proofs.

This issue is absolutely central to the credibility of the book as far as I am

concerned. Maine appears to claim that use of vibrators by doctors to give

hysterical middle-class women clitoral orgasms was common practice in the late

19th and early 20th century. She failed to convince me that this was correct, but

she

did convince me that some - a few doctors - did this. So, if that is all she is

claiming

then that is fine and it is an interesting small addition to the history of 19th

century sexuality.

Next point, Maine writes about hysteria but in many of the arenas/sites she

describes the

patients often would not have been seriously disturbed if at all.

Middle class women were reluctant to allow doctors to examine them when they were

pregnant - I believe that this applied to removing clothes and not just to

internal examinations - however I have done very little work on the 19th century

and perhaps

someone else might like to comment on this. If this is correct would women who

were not seriously disturbed have been likely to agree to genital contact in

Maine's circumstances?

On this note, unless this is acknowledged to be the practice of a tiny radical

minority of doctors - my belief - then I would disregard Freud's experience as he

was hardly typical of his era in his approach to sex....

Last point, hands up all those women who think vibrators and orgasms go together

like a horse and carriage? This is the great unexamined assumption of Maine's book.

Do vibrators provide women with orgasms in the clockwork fashion assumed?

All the best,

Hera

Lesley Hall wrote:

> Histsex:For historians of sexuality - http://homepages.primex.co.uk/~lesleyah

>> Damn! I've been away for most of this, in which I'm extremely interested

> since I've been asked several times to comment on Maines's work (or at

> least, the media representations of same) and have only just got hold of the

> book itself to read (though I've not yet done so). I concur that it sounds

> to be generalising from a tiny and probably fringe phenomenon (do the words

> Isaac Baker Brown raise a resonant echo???), and (as far as I can tell)

> ignores the rise of what in the UK we call physiotherapy, which became an

> organised profession in the 1890s as the Chartered Society of Medical

> Masseuses following the great Massage Parlour Scandal (clandestine brothels

> pretending to be therapeutic, plus ca change), initially told in the columns

> of the British Medical Journal. This indicates that a) if doctors

> recommended hands-on physical treatment they were delegating it to trained

> masseuses/masseurs, who were anxious to indicate their respectability and b)

> even non-executive relief type massage was regarded with not a little

> dubeity. Plus, c) by the early C20th physios were using a wide variety of

> electrically driven devices, going by ads in their journal.

> So there may be a whole other story about medicine and touch and

> electrical devices going on which is missing from Maines' book.

> The 'censorship' line does sound a little dubious (was the contentious

> nature of her research the whole story?) even if it does fit into Brit

> perceptions of US institutions.

> I'll try and post further when I've read the book, but I have GOT to

> finish vol one of Trumbach's magnum opus on sex and gender in C18th London

> for a review first.

> Lesley

> Lesley Hall

> lesleyah@primex.co.uk

> -----Original Message-----

> From: Kazetnik@aol.com <Kazetnik@aol.com>

> To: histsex@listbot.com <histsex@listbot.com>

> Date: 27 July 1999 12:45

> Subject: Maines' Martyrdom

>> >Histsex:For historians of sexuality -

> http://homepages.primex.co.uk/~lesleyah

> >> >I am sorry for Maines that she lost her teaching position because of her

> >research, but my guess is such consequences are rare for those of us

> working

> >in this field. I do indeed find the assertions of her work dubious (though

> >not necessarily incredible since I can still be surprised by some of the

> >'oddities' of belief and practice in the 19th century), but it is

> interesting

> >that her work is seen as frivolous. I wonder why that should be? Are

> >vibrators funny per se? Or only 19th century ones?

> >> >Chris White

__________________________________________________________________

From: Kazetnik@aol.com

Date: Sun, 1 Aug 1999 05:18:36 EDT

Subject: Gynaecological exams & orgasms

To pursue Hera Cook's point about middle-class women's reluctance to be

examined by doctors, Havelock Ellis provides a slightly peculiar insight

based on his own clinical practice with working-class women in 'The Evolution

of Modesty':

'Long ago, when a hospital student on midwifery duty in London slums, I had

occasion to observe that among the women of the poor, and more especially in

those that had lost the first bloom of youth, modesty consisted chiefly in

the fear of being disgusting....As soon as the woman realized that I found

nothing disgusting in whatever was proper and necessary to be done under the

circumstances, it almost invariably happened that every sign of modesty at

once disappeared.'

He seems to regard working class women's modesty as superficial, easily

discarded, and by implication, middle class women's modesty a much more

developed element of their identities, evidently playing on notions of

greater or lesser 'civilization'. It is less clear what he means by

'disgusting', but there is possibly some shadow of the sense of the vagina

being an 'unhealed wound' that must not be displayed, in which case it seems

unlikely that women would have joyfully allowed genital contact of an

explicitly sexual nature, as opposed to one reminiscent of sexual contact.

'Hands up all those women who think vibrators and orgasms go together like a

horse and carriage.' <hand firmly lowered> Such a bizarre notion, a conveyor

belt idea of turning out a whole series of identical products. Maine seems

not to have thought about this *at all*, yet surely it would be fundamental

to her cultural analysis to think through the competing meanings of

'pleasure' mechanically applied and DIY pleasure. Do we really think our

predecessors were so stupid and/or literal minded that because masturbation

was taboo, they would not have done it? One of the principal assumptions of

pornographic material from the period is that women were (a) in constant need

of sexual pleasure and (b) very capable of providing their own once

introduced to the concept. Fantasy obviously, but some story about female

sexual pleasure in the 'real' is being narrated here.

Regards

Chris White

___________________________________________________________________

From: "Lesley Hall" <lesleyah@primex.co.uk>

Subject: Re: Maines' Martyrdom and Vibratory Censorship

Date: Sun, 1 Aug 1999 12:48:37 +0100

I've now had at least a superficial glance at the book.

I suspect, from the authorities Maines cites on the history of hysteria,

that all she says about this will be shot down in flames by Helen King's

recent, highly praised, _Hippocrates' Women_. Unlike most people who have

written on this subject, King is is a highly competent classical scholar who

has gone back to the Greek and Latin texts and has deconstructed the

accepted historiographical analysis of the alleged Hippocratic origins of

what was defined in the C19th as hysteria. While King's book only came out

this year, articles by her in this area have been available for some time.

I also feel that although Maines mentions other aspects of

electrotherapy (galvanic belts and corsets etc) she has paid insufficient

attention to the claims that were being made for these devices in

advertisements, which were very similar to those she cites for vibrators -

e.g. restoring joy of life, purifying blood etc - and similar claims were

made for a variety of 'quack' remedies and devices. As galvanic belts, etc,

did nothing at all (except via suggestion and belief in the almost magical

powers of 'electricity'), I think it may be over-interpreting the claims

made for vibrators to assume a mutually understood sexual subtext to the

ways they were being promoted.

On women and masturbation: presumably some women did discover this and

as it was such an unnamed and taboo topic (unlike male 'self-abuse') there

was little condemnatory discourse they might have encountered - they might

not even have defined it as 'sexual' in an era when 'the sexual' for women

revolved around penetrative intercourse with men. I was struck, when going

through the 1000s of letters to Marie Stopes, how little masturbation was an

issue for women, whereas it recurred frequently as a source of concern in

letters from men (cf my article 'Forbidden by God, despised by men', in Jnl

Hist Sexuality, reprinted in Fout, _Forbidden History_). Stopes even

suggested (though only in private correspondence, not in print!) that for

the mature unmarried woman it was ('in moderation') a permissible form of

relief (particularly in conjunction with the glandular remedies Stopes was

also keen on).

Stella Browne certainly believed that masturbation in women was more

common than might be supposed (views put forward in _The Freewoman_ chastity

debates, 1912), though she did not pathologise the practice (in fact was pro

it).

Even modern surveys (for what they're worth) indicate that while nearly

100% of men have masturbated at one time or another (if not habitually), far

fewer women have, and they tend to start the practice later in life than men

(who normally begin in adolescence) - possibly after their sexual desires

have been aroused by external factors, rather than coming as a spontaneous

response to adolescent erections. So whether women would automatically think

of vibratory massagers as aids to masturbation is questionable, especially

in an era when the desirability of orgasms for all was not being thrust at

them from all sides.

As for the vibrator being the 'magic wand' for all women, I'm dubious of

any statement which contains the words 'all women' (as Stella B commented,

'I have never met the normal woman'). Some women, after all, do have orgasms

from penetrative sex, even if this is far from universal. Some women have

nocturnal orgasms without any stimulation. Some women start masturbating to

orgasm from early childhood and others don't have any orgasms until their

fourth or fifth decade.

Maines largely appears to ignore the Stopes and after tradition of

female authored sex manuals critiquing the phallocentric model of

intercourse - while this was perhaps a more UK than US phenomenon (Stopes,

Hutton, Wright, Malleson, etc were all British) these books did appear in US

editions and are mentioned in Brecher's book on the sex researchers.

Thanks, Hera, for opening this discussion.

Lesley

Lesley Hall

lesleyah@primex.co.uk

___________________________________________________________________

From: "Lesley Hall" <lesleyah@primex.co.uk>

Subject: Research interests register

Date: Sun, 1 Aug 1999 18:46:23 +0100

Some while ago I mooted this and while the response was on the whole =

positive, pressure of other things meant I had to put it on the =

backburner for a while.

I have now given some thought to the possibilities, in particular =

the question of searchability (which was raised as a potential problem), =

and although my webmastering skills are not up to creating an actual =

database on my website, I have put a search engine on the page for =

searching by keyword terms.

The under-development page is on my website at =

http://homepages.primex.co.uk/~lesleyah/hofsresr.htm

though so far I haven't put in any entries (even though some people sent =

me information at the time of the original posting). Any suggestions =

about what should be mentioned there will be welcomed.

If people are interested in putting their information on this =

lesleyah@primex.co.uk,rather than on-list), the following details:

name, institutional affiliation (if any), e-mail address (and other =

contact details if you want), personal website info if applicable, and =

details of your research, using, as far as possible, terms which other =

individuals are likely to use for search purposes - i.e. indicate not =

merely that you are interested in e.g. prostitution or pornography, but =

the region/country, and the period (general/precise).

There may be some minor delays in getting the information onto the =

site, as I would prefer to reindex the site when I have a reasonable =

batch of entries rather than in driblets of one or two at a time.

Lesley Hall

lesleyah@primex.co.uk

histsex-owner@listbot.com

___________________________________________________________________

From: "Chris Willis" <chris@chriswillis.freeserve.co.uk>

Subject: Maines' martyrdom

Date: Sun, 15 Aug 1999 12:32:20 +0100

Hi!

Thre's an article about Rachel Maines in today's "Independent on Sunday"

which explains a lot about why her research was considered dodgy. It

includes illustrations of some of the things she insists are vibrators -

some of which quite clearly aren't! She seems to think that any appliance

which has the word "vibrate" or "massage" in its name or instructions must

be a vibrator, even if it's something like a neck and scalp massager. One

of the devices illustrated looks like a 1940s equivalent of the "Tens"

machine which is used to treat people with incurable back and neck

problems - in other words, exactly what the advertisements say it is.

It's a shame that she's insistent on pushing her arguemnts too far. Her

basic argument may well be correct, but it looks as if she's determined to

twist facts in order to produce as much extra "evidence" as possible to back

up her thesis. I find this mildly offensive to all the disabled people who

need the kind of devices she insists are purely sexual (eg RSI sufferers

whose symptoms can be alleviated by neck massage). A deaf friend of mine,

who obviously can't hear a conventional alarm clock, has a device with

vibrates under his pillow instead - I dread to think what Maines would make

of that! :-)

All the best

Chris

=========================================

Chris Willis

English Dept

Birkbeck College

Malet Street

London WC1E 7HX

Chris@chriswillis.freeserve.co.uk

http://www.chriswillis.freeserve.co.uk/

=========================================

___________________________________________________________________

From: "Chris Willis" <chris@chriswillis.freeserve.co.uk>

Subject: Maines - PS

Date: Sun, 15 Aug 1999 12:39:05 +0100

Hi!

Forgot to say in my last msg - the Independent on Sunday is on-line at

http://www.independent.co.uk/

ATB

Chris

=========================================

Chris Willis

English Dept

Birkbeck College

Malet Street

London WC1E 7HX

Chris@chriswillis.freeserve.co.uk

http://www.chriswillis.freeserve.co.uk/

=========================================

___________________________________________________________________

Date: 15 Aug 1999 19:47:39 -0000

From: "Histsex:For historians of sexuality" <histsex-owner@listbot.com>

Subject: New members/Introductions/Research Interests register

A number of new subscribers have recently joined. I invite them (and

anyone else who has not yet done so) to post a message to the list

introducing themselves and their particular interests. And of course,

don't wait for someone else to start a discussion - jump in with your own

queries, points, information, etc.

I'll remind everyone that I'm setting up a Research Interests Register:

the basic layout of this under development site can be observed at

http://homepages/primex.co.uk/~lesleyah/hofsresr.htm

Let me know by e-mail any information which you would like posted.

Lesley

histsex-owner@listbot.com

lesleyah@primex.co.uk

___________________________________________________________________

From: Kazetnik@aol.com

Date: Sun, 15 Aug 1999 18:01:13 EDT

Subject: Re: Maines - PS

Thanks to Chris Willis for the note re the Maines review. But it's

frustrating when only part of a paper is on-line....! The more I hear about

this 'project' of hers, the more disquieted I become. Why has she produced

such shoddy scholarship? Is it the publish-or-be-unemployed scenario? Or is

it somehow related to a caricature of the work of historians of sexuality, a

kind of post-Freud, everything is about sex if you only look properly? It is

tiresome that the objects of our study are regarded by some as trivial,

inappropriate, not serious. It is hopeless if the specificity of the field of

study is annihilated by 'scholars' who insist on producing arguments of such

dubious veracity in the name of writing the history of sexuality. Am I just

being paranoid, or is she doing all of us a disservice?

Chris White

___________________________________________________________________

Date: Sun, 15 Aug 1999 23:25:46 +0100

To: "Histsex:For historians of sexuality" <histsex@listbot.com>

From: Ianthe <ianthe@duende.demon.co.uk>

In message <5a98a727.24e892a9@aol.com>, Kazetnik@aol.com writes

>Histsex:For historians of sexuality - http://homepages.primex.co.uk/~lesleyah

>>Hi

>>Thanks to Chris Willis for the note re the Maines review. But it's

>frustrating when only part of a paper is on-line....! The more I hear about

>this 'project' of hers, the more disquieted I become. Why has she produced

>such shoddy scholarship?

'Allegedly' ;-) There was an interesting long illustrated

article in Wired on this (her work, not the unsubstantiated

notion that her work might be sub-standard). As most

old Wired articles are online, go check www.wired.com

Ianthe Duende

___________________________________________________________________

Date: Sun, 15 Aug 1999 20:37:35 -0700

From: Heather Lee Miller <miller.1438@osu.edu>

Subject: Re: New members/Introductions/Research Interests register

Hi,

Well, I guess I'll take this opportunity to introduce myself! I am a PhD

candidate in history at the Ohio State University (USA) and a managing

editor on the Journal of Women's History. I am working on a dissertation

about the connections between prostitution and lesbianism in sexology and

practice (among sex workers) in the US between 1840 and 1940.

Simultaneously the broadest and the narrowest topic possible! I look

forward to hearing from everyone else!

Best,

Heather Lee Miller

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Heather Lee Miller

Ph.D. candidate

Ohio State University

miller.1438@osu.edu

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"In my young days, I used to pick up sluts, and I don't mean that nastily.

It's more a term of endearment, really, for girls who know how to speak

their minds."

- Kevin Costner

___________________________________________________________________

Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 11:07:53 -0500 (CDT)

From: Sarah Elizabeth Hodges <sehodges@midway.uchicago.edu>

Subject: Re: New members/Introductions/Research Interests register

I too have been lurking this summer. My name is Sarah Hodges and I am a

PhD student in History at the University of Chicago -- although I have

been living in London since spring 98 and look to be signed up for

another 5 years or so.

I began writing a disseration on the history of birth control in India,

but am now just finishing up under the working title: "Modern Families,

Married Love: Towards a History of the 'Small Family Norm' in

20th-Century India." The point of the thesis is to figure out how 'small

family' came to be equated with 'modern family' in India. In order to do

this, I investigate a number of social movements and institutions in

India in the

1920s and 1930s: the non-Brahmin movement in south India, liberal social

reformers, erotic entrepreneurs (aka patent medicine firms and

sex manual publishers), Indian eugenicists and finally, birth cotnrol

advocates. As such, the first half of the thesis sets up how the

conjugal couple was promoted as the new kernel around which modern family

life was to be built, and the second half of the thesis explores how this

couple's 'correct reproduction' was arbitrated.

I would be especially interested if people know of work in places besides

India which deal with this-- I just found a copy of John Gillis' _A World

of their Own Making: Myth, Ritual and the Quest for Family Values_ but I

think that this must eb the tip of the iceberg-- that is, looking at

relations between and among family, normativity and sexuality as part and

parcel of 'modernization' etc.

Also-- a little plug-- I am co-organzing with David Arnold a conference

which will take place in London 18-19 November 1999 on 'Population,

Reproduction, and Birth Control in Late Colonial India' -- it will be

held at the Centre for the Culture and History of Medicine at the School

of Oriental and African Studies, University of London. If there is

interest, I would be happy to post the tentative list of papers and our

preliminary statement.

At least one of the presenters I think is on this list-- perhaps you have

already introduced yourself? There are a lot of younger scholars who are

doing extremely innovative work on the history of sexuality and

reproduction in India and the point of the conference is to have everyone

meet finally in one place but also to showcase how great their work is.

The conference is open to any and all who wish to come.

Finally: to the person who is working on Maud Allen-- a good friend has

great material on her scandalous (and ultimately cancelled) performance

in Madras-- let me know if you would like his email.

Sarah

___________________________________________________________________

From: "Donna Larsen" <ladydonna85@hotmail.com>

Subject: Re: New members/Introductions/Research Interests register

Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 09:45:11 PDT

I am a 35 year old returning student. At the moment I am working on my

transferrer degree at Seattle Central community college. I plan to obtain

my PH.D in Psychology and then specialize in education and research in the

field of human sexuality. I have joined this list mainly to learn.

I am also a lesbian leather woman. I have been a member of the Seattle

Leather community for about 9 years now. I have been a professional

Dominatrix. I did that for about 8 years and just recently decided to take

a breather from that for a while. I am also a pagan whose sexuality and

spirituality are very much connected.

My wife Stephanie and I are in a Polyamoury relationship. This works

extremely well for us. So that is Me in nutshell. I have been very much

enjoying the information and conversations so far.

___________________________________________________________________

From: "Lesley Hall" <lesleyah@primex.co.uk>

Subject: Re: Maines - PS

Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 19:50:21 +0100

> Why has she produced

>such shoddy scholarship? Is it the publish-or-be-unemployed scenario?

I think this may relate to the demand, even by some academic presses, that

new monographs should be marketable to a wide and non-specialist audience.

Obviously to do that it's no good saying you have an interesting small

sidelight on some marginal eccentricities of Victorian sexual culture, you

have to have a startling new thesis which will overturn accepted etc etc

etc.

I note that there is a website 'Good Vibrations' (which I don't offhand

have the URL for which includes a 'Virtual Museum of the History of the

Vibrator' - which seems rather reminiscent of Maines's book though I

couldn't find it cited anywhere. (GV started as a women-friendly business

selling vibrators in I think the 1970s).

Lesley Hall

lesleyah@primex.co.uk

___________________________________________________________________

Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 21:48:26 +0100

From: Ianthe <ianthe@duende.demon.co.uk>

Subject: Maines - PS

In message <00d701bee818$58da1920$912f70c3@default>, Lesley Hall

<lesleyah@primex.co.uk> writes

>Histsex:For historians of sexuality - http://homepages.primex.co.uk/~lesleyah

>>> Why has she produced

>>such shoddy scholarship? Is it the publish-or-be-unemployed scenario?

>>I think this may relate to the demand, even by some academic presses, that

>new monographs should be marketable to a wide and non-specialist audience.

In her case it was publish and be _un_-employed. This

Carnegie-Mellon Phd spent 20 years researching and

writing _The Technology of the Orgasm_ (Dec 1998, John

Hopkins UP) and for her pains was apparently (according

to Wired) promptly sacked from the faculty of Clarkson

U, on publication. Luckily it seems she has a research

and curatorship business to fall back on.

_Web links_:

* Amazon.com, with comments:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0801859417/o/qid=934835232/sr=

8-1/002-1370467-1434652 (place all on one line, press 'enter')

* John Hopkins University Press page for the book:

http://www.press.jhu.edu/press/books/titles/f98/f98mate.htm

* The full-text of Chapter 1 (uncorrected proof):

http://128.220.50.88/press/books/titles/sampler/maines.htm

_Some Web reviews_:

* Salon:

http://ww1.salonmagazine.com/urge/feature/1999/02/cov_25feature.html

* CyberSociology:

http://www.socio.demon.co.uk/magazine/5/5orgasm.html

* New York Times:

http://bettydodson.com/org-tech.htm

* LA Weekly:

http://www.laweekly.com/ink/99/03/wls-mithers.shtml

Ianthe Duende

___________________________________________________________________

From: HayGirl99@aol.com

Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 16:59:31 EDT

Subject: Re: New members/Introductions/Research Interests register

Hi,

I joined the list a couple of months ago....I'm not a college student or

a professor or a writer.....I'm a 15 year old high school student from South

Carolina. I've been interested in the history of women and human

sexuality--mainly the the history of women's sexuality. I'd like to research

these topics in depth. I searched the web for sites on them and came across

an advertisement for this list--so I joined.

Anyway, you won't hear much from me. I'm just here to learn from ya'll

and expand my own knowledge on the subjects. Hopefully, soon I'll be able to

put my two cents in. I've really enjoyed it so far!

Thanks

~Hailey

___________________________________________________________________

Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 14:40:07 -0700

From: chris dummitt <cdummitt@sfu.ca>

Subject: maines and intro

Fellow Subscribers,

An anecdote to the Maines discussion: The book, _The Road to Welville_

(1993), by novelist T. Coraghessan Boyle, includes a scenario in which a

doctor (of dubious reputation) manipulates the "wombs" of various women.

Boyle uses the scenario to poke fun at the distinctions made between the

serious science allegedly performed at John Harvey Kellog's sanitarium

(through which the reader has already seen people die) and that type of

science deemed quakery (through which the female characters' conditions

seem to be improving). Now, Boyle is a satirist and his intention is to

poke fun at both types of science but he may have a point. Surely, we can

learn from Maines (without accepting her whole thesis) that the distinction

between legitimate and illegitimate was a fuzzy business in the late

nineteenth century (on this, see Keith Walden's superb _Becoming Modern in

Toronto_ (1997))

I'm not sure of Boyle's historical sources but in this and his other works,

I have found him to evoke historical context better than (alas) many

historians. For example, his _Riven Rock_ is the perfect novel companion

to Gail Bederman's _Manliness and Civilization_.

An introduction: I am a doctoral candidate at Simon Fraser University in

British Columbia. My dissertation is a cultural history of men and

violence in post-WWII Vancouver - looking at the cultural definitions and

responses to different types of violence. I have also done work on

masculine domesticity in the 1950s including an article on the origins of

men's suburban barbecuing in Canada.

chris dummitt

_______________________

Chris Dummitt

Doctoral Candidate

Department of History

Simon Fraser University

_______________________

___________________________________________________________________ From: "Matthew Johnson" <trekdrop78@hotmail.com>

Subject: Re: New members/Introductions/Research Interests register

Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 18:26:04 PDT

hello,

for what it's worth (I think I may have inadvertantly introduced myself to

the list in a message to Lesley Hall a few weeks back), my name is Matthew

Johnson and I joined the list in may. I will be receiving my BA from New

York Univ in December 99 (in German and European Studies). Partly in spite

of, partly because of my majors, virtually all of the independent research

and writing I have carried out as an undergrad has dealt with issues of

history and sexuality. A great deal of this has focused on the Weimar

Republic: I have carried out research on the german youth movement among the

working-class, the 'decadence' and 'perversions' of Weimar's cabaret culture

and how they related (or did not relate) to the republic's eventual

downfall, the history of the early homosexual liberation movement, and

(currently) the subcultures of the human body in the republic and the nazi

period (esp. nudism and how this related to homoeroticism).

in addition, I am completing a BA thesis begun as a class project for a

course taught by gert hekma at the university of amsterdam. the thesis is

on the prevention of hiv/std's among dutch gay men in the netherlands.

i am in the process of applying for graduate programs, with a PhD in history

as an eventual goal.

again, hello to all. I may not be very talkative, but am here and listening

(that sounds kinda creepy, sorry...)

-- Matt Johnson

_______________________________________________________________

Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com

___________________________________________________________________

Date: Mon, 16 Aug 1999 18:34:44 -0700

From: Marthe Arends <mnarends@earthlink.net>

Subject: Yet another Intro

Boy, do I feel like an uneducated boob what with everyone's academic

credentials flying hither and yon. I'm not in academia, I'm a writer,

focusing primarily on historical novels in the mid to late

Victorian/early Edwardian eras. While I do not include overt sexual

issues, I plan to touch on one or two (particularly birth control around

the turn of the century) in future books, and am prone to researching

the pants (ha! sorry, bad pun) off of subjects, hence my enjoyment of

this list.

Back into lurk mode...

Marthe

http://home.earthlink.net/~mnarends

___________________________________________________________________

Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 12:42:05 +1000

From: Hera Cook <dcoo8738@mail.usyd.edu.au>

Subject: Re: Maines

Ianthe wrote,

In her case it was publish and be _un_-employed. This

Carnegie-Mellon Phd spent 20 years researching and

writing _The Technology of the Orgasm_ (Dec 1998, John

Hopkins UP) and for her pains was apparently (according

to Wired) promptly sacked from the faculty of Clarkson

U, on publication. Luckily it seems she has a research

and curatorship business to fall back on.

Hera replies

I am a bit lost here. I read that she had trouble in the 1980s. I would be

astonished if it was correct that she was sacked from Clarkson U for a book

published by John Hopkins U press in 1999.

As the person who introduced this topic and many of the criticisms of Maine's

work. I would like to comment that I wouldn't have used the word shoddy about her

research. It is evident from her introduction that Maine started her work with

certain preconceptions - but she is hardly alone in that. I am resistant to her

and her publicists' construction of her as matyred to the heroic cause of truth

about vibrators. However one of the problems with being attacked from outside in

an unreasonable basis, as it appears she was on one occasion in the 80s, is that

it tends to diminish people's capacity for re-analysis and skeptism towards their

own work.

So she probably never went back and examined her own fundamental assumptions nor

had the time to look at the medical context in which, as Leslie pointed out, the

vibrators were used quite differently. However she has done a great deal of

research in the areas she thought were relevant. It is not shoddy it is just wrong

and publicised in a way that emphasises that.

Hera

___________________________________________________________________

From: "Lisa Cardyn" <lcardyn@email.msn.com>

Subject: Re: New members/Introductions/Research Interests register

Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 01:42:09 -0400

Hi there--

I've been lurking on the list with great interest for a while now and

thought I'd take a moment to introduce myself. I'm a PhD student in

American Studies at Yale working on a dissertation that looks at the

evolution of legal, medical, and psychological conceptions of sexual trauma

in American culture from the postbellum period through the mid-20th century.

In addition to the theoretical chapters that focus most directly on

practical and discursive developments within the professions, I'm also

integrating a select number of historical episodes that serve as case

studies for observing how sexual trauma was represented within the larger

culture (e.g., the use of sexual terror by the Reconstruction-era klans).

I've really come to appreciate hearing what all of you are thinking and

writing about and look forward to participating in many interesting

discussions in the coming months.

Best wishes,

Lisa Cardyn

ABD, Yale University

JD, Yale Law School

___________________________________________________________________

From: Kazetnik@aol.com

Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 08:50:53 EDT

Subject: Maines: terms of critique

Given that I was responsible for calling Maines' work shoddy, I would like to

withdraw the insult and apologise -- it was an overstatement, but one born of

(personal) irritation not so much with Maines, but rather with the climate in

which we UK academics seem doomed to work, in which quantity takes precedence

over quality. Not an original gripe, of course, but with the next RAE

looming, planning for the one after that is beginning to take control. Ugh!

Chris White

___________________________________________________________________

Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 14:14:48 +0100 (BST)

From: RM CLEMINSON <R.M.Cleminson@Bradford.ac.uk>

Subject: introduction

I am also relatively new to the list. My interests lie in the field of

Spanish eugenics and history of sexuality. Particularly, I have written

material on the Catalan anarchists' discourse on sexuality and eugenics in

the early twentieth century. I am also interested in critiques of newer

'gay gene' theories.

******************************

Dr.Richard M. Cleminson

Lecturer in Spanish Studies

Department of Modern Languages

University of Bradford

Bradford, West Yorkshire

BD7 1DP

tel: +1274 234595

fax: +1274 235590

___________________________________________________________________

From: "Lesley Hall" <lesleyah@primex.co.uk>

Subject: The silly season? Sex and the ancient Greeks

Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 19:44:20 +0100

Seen yesterday in _The Guardian_ (and available for perusal in extenso at

www.newsunlimited.co.uk)

Book tells it straight about sex lives of ancient Greeks

Forget the philosophers - a new study debunks the popular view of

bedroom antics in the classical world, and it's selling by the stack

Helena Smith in Athens

Monday August 16, 1999

In ancient Greece, homosexuals were frowned upon, paedophiles were

punished and masturbation was seen as fit only for slaves. Even the

missionary position was out, according to a slim 88-page volume which has

become one of the hottest reads in Greece.

The book, Love, Sex and Marriage: A Guide to the Private Life of the

Ancient Greeks, has become a bestseller in modern Greece

I'd appreciate the opinion of any of the classicists on the list, but none

of this alleged radical revisionism seems to be saying anything remarkably

new? Apparently 'Mr Vrissimtzis, a sociologist, wrote the book after

studying classical texts, inscriptions and pottery in museums and libraries'

(but not, apparently, the plethora of scholarship relating to precisely this

subject!). The reason for the writing of the book and its success seem

rather confused: on the one hand 'in a country where "obscene" statues and

vases were stashed away in museum storerooms until the early 70s, the

revival has as much to do with revising perceptions of the past as anything

else', on the other 'several Greek historians... are bent on dismissing the

commonly held notion that their ancestors were liberal, free-for-all

revellers'.

This strikes me as another example of canny marketing (as with Maines's

book).

Lesley Hall

lesleyah@primex.co.uk

___________________________________________________________________

From: "Chris Willis" <chris@chriswillis.freeserve.co.uk>

Subject: Maines again

Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 12:53:37 +0100

Hi!

>> it's frustrating when only part of a paper is on-line....!

I agree! I'm also wondering whether the pictures the Independent used were

provided by Maines or added by the Independent themselves. (I used to be a

journalist and we quite often supplemented an article with whatever vaguely

relevant pics we could dig out of the library.) If the latter, they may not

be a fair reflection of her research.

I wonder if part of the reason for the hostility to her work is that some of

it could be construed as attacking the medical establishment? OK, so it was

a long time ago, but her allegations about male doctors sexually abusing

women under the pretence that it was medical treatment are very disturbing.

All the best

Chris

=========================================

Chris Willis

English Dept

Birkbeck College

Malet Street

London WC1E 7HX

Chris@chriswillis.freeserve.co.uk

http://www.chriswillis.freeserve.co.uk/

=========================================

___________________________________________________________________

Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 12:46:54 -0500

From: Marion <neko75@mindspring.com>

Subject: Re: New members/Introductions/Research Interests register

I guess I'll add my introduction to those of us who have been lurking for a

while. I am a first-year Ph.D. student in U.S. history at the University

of Southern California. I just graduated from Oklahoma State University,

where I developed my interest in the history of sexuality in the United

States. I have always been interested in women's studies, but I have

become very interested in concepts of masculinity (particularly related to

Asian American culture because my main area of study is in

Japanese-American history). I haven't really done any research in these

areas yet, but I have at least five years of Ph.D. work ahead of me during

which I can pursue my interests.

Marion Umeno

University of Southern California

first-year history Ph.D. student

___________________________________________________________________

From: along@crt.state.la.us (Alecia Long)

Subject: RE: The silly season? Sex and the ancient Greeks

Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 15:17:43 -0500

I, for one, have a been a little bothered by the assumption that seems to

be be embedded in some of the recent list postings about Maines book and

now about Vrissimmtzs' book.

The assumption that these two books are somehow without value or don't pass

muster because the authors make mistakes and/or fail to take into account

the work of the history of sexuality cannon smacks of the very same kind of

academic derision and elitism that folks in the history of sexuality

community have been fighting against in order to have their work taken

seriously.

I don't think it does a lot of good for us to canibalize each other just

because we can. Criticism is essential, but far too often that criticism

devolves into smug and smirky commentary. God knows trying to write a

dissertation, let alone a book, is the hardest thing I've ever done, and I

always try to remember that when I'm reviewing or critiquing the work of

others. I also try to remember that the most important and bravest things

a writer or scholar can ever do is have the stamina to finish something and

then the nerve to put it out there for public scrutiny.

My own work is on New Orleans. While the existing secondary works on

sexuality in my subject city fall far short of what I consider minimum

standards of professional scholarly research, they have been invaluable to

me -- both in terms of helping me generate questions and providing

invaluable research leads. I would go so far as to say that popular/buff

literature on sexuality (and I would place Vrissimtz' work in this category

but not Maines) does an invaluable service to more "serious" scholars

because it generates interest among the larger reading public.

I think lots of the criticism of Maines' book has been right on-target and

I don't think she's a martyr, but I take exception to the assertion that

her book is an exemplar of "quantity over quality" publishing.

More than enough said I suspect.

Alecia P. Long, Historian

Louisiana State Museum

___________________________________________________________________

Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 10:13:14 +1000

From: Hera Cook <dcoo8738@mail.usyd.edu.au>

Subject: Re: New members/Introductions/Research Interests register

Hi,

Other people may feel differently, but I would love you to post your

conference program. That seems to me to be one of the things this list should be

for - to let us all know what is happening in other areas of the history of

sexuality.

(Comment from Leslie, please!)

Regards,

Hera

Sarah Elizabeth Hodges wrote:

> [message snipped]

>> Also-- a little plug-- I am co-organzing with David Arnold a conference

> which will take place in London 18-19 November 1999 on 'Population,

> Reproduction, and Birth Control in Late Colonial India' -- it will be

> held at the Centre for the Culture and History of Medicine at the School

> of Oriental and African Studies, University of London. If there is

> interest, I would be happy to post the tentative list of papers and our

> preliminary statement.

>>> ___________________________________________________________________

Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 10:46:53 +1000

From: Hera Cook <dcoo8738@mail.usyd.edu.au>

Subject: Re: Masturbation in Ancient Greece and Maines

Hi,

As I remember the illustrations do come from the book. Also she is not

talking about doctors sexually abusing women.

She believes that these doctors and these women did not see clitoral sensations

as sexual - only vaginal penetration was sexual according to her. Therefore, she

argues, that both the doctors and the women saw doctors giving women clitoral

massage to orgasm as non-sexual relief of hysteria.

As I have said I seriously doubt that this practice was at all common, but where

(or if) it occurred in the ideological framework Maine presents, I would argue

very strongly that it is ahistorical to describe it as sexual abuse. The

experience of sexual abuse is culturally constructed and accordingly differs over

time and in different societies.

I think the reason for the hostility is that she has produced an argument which

is plausible and highly culturally acceptable right now - (read the articles

linked by Ianthe) so it is hard to dispute, even though it is not correct.

Does the Greek book come into the same category? It is obviously a culturally

acceptable idea in modern Greece but how is the evidence for very different

attitudes integrated into an argument for sexual conservatism?

I know little about sexuality in Ancient Greece. Is there anyone out there who

could comment on new scholarship on attitudes to masturbation, especially female

masturbation? And, of course, on attitudes to homosexuality.

(About 3-4 years ago I heard a radio 4 interview with a scholar fromWarwick

University talking about homosexuality in Ancient greece - it was so good I

remember it still - Are you out there by any chance?)

Hera

Chris Willis wrote:

> Histsex:For historians of sexuality - http://homepages.primex.co.uk/~lesleyah

>> Hi!

>> >> it's frustrating when only part of a paper is on-line....!

>> I agree! I'm also wondering whether the pictures the Independent used were

> provided by Maines or added by the Independent themselves. (I used to be a

> journalist and we quite often supplemented an article with whatever vaguely

> relevant pics we could dig out of the library.) If the latter, they may not

> be a fair reflection of her research.

>> I wonder if part of the reason for the hostility to her work is that some of

> it could be construed as attacking the medical establishment? OK, so it was

> a long time ago, but her allegations about male doctors sexually abusing

> women under the pretence that it was medical treatment are very disturbing.

>> All the best

> Chris

>> =========================================

> Chris Willis

> English Dept

> Birkbeck College

> Malet Street

> London WC1E 7HX

>> Chris@chriswillis.freeserve.co.uk

> http://www.chriswillis.freeserve.co.uk/

> =========================================

>> ___________________________________________________________________

Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 20:22:03 -0700

From: Jack Kolb <kolb@ucla.edu>

Subject: Re: The silly season? Sex and the ancient Greeks

>Seen yesterday in _The Guardian_ (and available for perusal in extenso at

>www.newsunlimited.co.uk)

> Book tells it straight about sex lives of ancient Greeks

> Forget the philosophers - a new study debunks the popular view of

>bedroom antics in the classical world, and it's selling by the stack

>Lesley Hall

>lesleyah@primex.co.uk

I searched this site, Leslie, but couldn't find the connection to the book

you mention. Maybe I just gave up too soon. But any further help would be

appreciated.

Jack Kolb

Dept. of English, UCLA

kolb@ucla.edu

___________________________________________________________________

Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 01:09:55 -0700

From: Margaret <minxs@sonic.net>

Subject: Re: New members/Introductions/Research Interests register

I'm another non-academic. I run the Pro-Choice Views website at About.com -

http://prochoice.about.com - and am always on the lookout for interesting

links and possible topics for articles that relate to abortion, birth

control, and "reproductive issues" in general.

Parenthetically, I just read "Courtesans and Fishcakes" which is about

appetites in ancient Greece. Anyone familiar with it? (Apologies if it's

been discussed already.)

___________________________________________________________________

Date: 18 Aug 1999 08:57:03 -0000

From: "Histsex:For historians of sexuality" <histsex-owner@listbot.com>

Subject: Conference announcements and calls for papers

In response to Hera's enquiry, yes, these are very welcome (I think it

does indicate on the list home page that this is a place for these, and

indeed information about forthcoming or recently published books in the

field, as well as for discussion).

Lesley

histsex-owner@listbot.com

lesleyah@primex.co.uk

___________________________________________________________________

Date: 18 Aug 1999 08:59:53 -0000

From: "Histsex:For historians of sexuality" <histsex-owner@listbot.com>

Subject: Finding Guardian article

There is a search engine somewhere on the site www.newsunlimited.co.uk

which searches the past 7 days: the page that the link takes you to at

first is always the current day's issue. I located the article in question

by searching on keywords from the headline.

Lesley

histsex-owner@listbot.com

lesleyah@primex.co.uk

___________________________________________________________________

Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 17:55:00 -0600

From: Miriam Jones <mjones@unbsj.ca>

Subject: Re: New members/Introductions/Research Interests register

Well, the trend is too strong to resist, so here is my intro.

A long-time lurker, first-time (?) poster, I recently finished my PhD

in the Graduate Program in English at York U (Toronto, Canada), and

have just begun an appointment in the Dept. of Humanities and

Languages at the University of New Brunswick in Saint John. My

dissertation was "'Too Common and Most Unnatural': rewriting the

'infanticidal woman' in Britain, 1764-1859." It focuses on class and

gender issues in the way women who were accused of infanticide are

represented in folkloric ballads, broadsides, novels, forensic texts,

and newspapers. I will be working with this material for awhile,

turning it into a book (says she, brightly). I am also beginning some

work on "murderous sweetheart" narratives, which grows out of my

diss. research (for every broadside narrative I found about

infanticide, I found five about men who murdered their pregnant

lovers in order to avoid having to marry them). This should bring up

some interesting questions about sexual danger, the construction of

the labouring-class man as brutal, etc. etc.

I have been enjoying the list immensely.

Miriam

m i r i a m j o n e s, PhD

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Assistant Professor

Department of Humanities and Languages

University of New Brunswick in Saint John

P.O. Box 5050

Saint John, NB, Canada E2L 4l5

(506) 648-5602

mailto:mjones@unbsj.ca

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

___________________________________________________________________

Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 12:23:31 -0500

From: "Susan E. Myers-Shirk" <sshirk@mtsu.edu>

Subject: introduction

Hi:

Thought I'd take a moment to introduce myself. I've been reading the

list for sometime, but haven't gotten around to introducing myself yet.

I'm an associate professor in U.S. cultural and intellectual history at

Middle Tennessee State University in Murfreesboro, TN, USA. I'm

finishing up a project right now on Protestant moral imagination in the

mid-twentieth century. It focuses in particular on the work of pastoral

counselors (ordained ministers who were also trained as psychological

counselors and psychotherapists). Surprisingly, (or not surprisingly,

depending upon your perspective) they spent a remarkable amount of time

talking about sex.

This project has led me into my second project in

which I plan to examine the relationship between Protestant mainline or

mainstream denominations and their gay and lesbian parishioners in the

1940s, 1950s, and 1960s, perhaps going as late as the 1970s. There's a

significant amount of published and manuscript material on this topic,

but I'm also looking to interview gay and lesbian folks who were church

members, seminary students/professors or in any way associated with the

Protestant community during these three decades. Any comments or

thoughts from list readers would be welcomed.

I've been enjoying the discussion and am looking forward to more.

Susan Myers-Shirk

___________________________________________________________________

From: "Chris Willis" <chris@chriswillis.freeserve.co.uk>

Subject: Re: Maines and the silly season

Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 20:13:52 +0100

Hi!

The point I was trying to make is that Maines' work can be interpreted as an

attack on the medical establishment in general and abusive doctors (or what

we would now term abusive doctors) in particular, which might account for

some of the hostility towards her work. Press coverage certainly hasn't

helped!

While I take your point about cultural constructs, I can't entirely agree

that such treatment was necessarily non-abusive. I appreciate that the

doctors may well have claimed it wasn't abuse but, to paraphrase Mandy

Rice-Jones, "Well they would, wouldn't they?" Does Maines give patients'

views of the treatment? I haven't been able to get hold of her book yet, so

I'm having to go on what she's been quoted as saying, which I do appreciate

may not be accurate. (Some of the accounts I've read give the impression

she is talking about abuse, amongst other things, but then, it is the silly

season!)

Does Maines give any examples of female doctors or male patients involved in

this treatment? There's some fascinating gender politics here. It's

interesting that a professionally-qualified man receiving payment for

stimulating a woman to orgasm was considered to be giving medical treatment,

whereas women who did the same for men were regarded as prostitutes.

All the best

Chris

Hera Cook wrote:

> Also she is not

>talking about doctors sexually abusing women.

>She believes that these doctors and these women did not see clitoral

sensations

>as sexual - only vaginal penetration was sexual according to her.

Therefore, she

>argues, that both the doctors and the women saw doctors giving women

clitoral

>massage to orgasm as non-sexual relief of hysteria.

>As I have said I seriously doubt that this practice was at all common, but

where

>(or if) it occurred in the ideological framework Maine presents, I would

argue

>very strongly that it is ahistorical to describe it as sexual abuse. The

>experience of sexual abuse is culturally constructed and accordingly

differs over

>time and in different societies.

___________________________________________________________________

Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 07:10:24 +0100

From: Ianthe <ianthe@duende.demon.co.uk>

Subject: Re: Finding Guardian article

In message <934966808.13151.qmail@ech>, Histsex:For historians of

sexuality <histsex-owner@listbot.com> writes

>Histsex:For historians of sexuality - http://homepages.primex.co.uk/~lesleyah

>>There is a search engine somewhere on the site www.newsunlimited.co.uk

>which searches the past 7 days: the page that the link takes you to at

>first is always the current day's issue. I located the article in question

>by searching on keywords from the headline.

The Financial Times are currently offering free access (next 10 days

or so) to their entire 5000-periodial archive, which includes such UK

national broadsheet newspapers as The Guardian and The Independent.

http://www.ft.com/virtual-globalarchive Rip it while you can ;-)

If you're really clever with Perl and fat academic connection you

could write a script which would syphon off the entire Independent

and Guardian article-database... :)

Yours,

Ianthe Duende

___________________________________________________________________

Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 07:23:18 -0700

From: James Anthony <reader45@pacbell.net>

Subject: Re: new member introduction/

Salutations.

I am here. I read and research. I was introduced to this list last May,

by a visiting professor from Amsterdam. I am always quite intrigued by

Sex/Gender/Queer Culture Theory

and the resulting debates. I look forward to new insights.. with keen

attention.

Sincerely,

James Anthony

________________________________________________________________

From: "Donna Larsen" <ladydonna85@hotmail.com>

Subject: Re: new member introduction/

Date: Thu, 19 Aug 1999 16:58:35 PDT

Hello James. Are you taking the minor in Gay and Lesbian studies at San

Fransico State University. I also hear that they have a minor in Human

Sexuality. What have you or anyone here heard or found with these programs?

I have been considering this, though leaving Seattle is not something I am

anxious to do. I have also considered majoring in Psychology at University

of Washington and then doing one or both of those minors long distance. I

would apreciate any information from anyone concerning any of these

programs.

________________________________________________________________

From: "jayD" <jaysd@mistral.co.uk>

Subject: infanticide/miriam jones

Date: Fri, 20 Aug 1999 08:50:14 +0100

I sent the following email to Miriam Jones at her email addres and it has

been returned, so I am sending it to you thru' the group. Hope it is

useful.

I read your introduction to histsex and noticed your research is in the

area of infanticide. Have you come across the book _The Morning of Her Day_

by Jennifer Green, which is about a 17-year-old servant girl who was

hanged in 1805 for murdering her bastard child? The author, after going

through the evidence, decided that her death had been engineered by her

lover, who may have been involved with the murder of the child. I should

imagine the book is out of print but was published by Divine Books in 1987

and republished by Darf Publishers 50 Hans Crescent London SW1X 0NA (UK) in

1990.

jay Dixon

jaysd@mistral.co.uk

________________________________________________________________

Date: Fri, 20 Aug 1999 01:55:10 -0700

From: Jack Kolb <kolb@ucla.edu>

Subject: Re: Finding Guardian article

Many thanks for your kind suggestion, Ianthe. It sounds like a spurious

study. Has it even been accorded an academic review?

Jack Kolb

Dept. of English, UCLA

kolb@ucla.edu

________________________________________________________________

From: "Lesley Hall" <lesleyah@primex.co.uk>

Subject: Eder, Hall and Hekma: Sexual Cultures in Europe: Tables of contents

Date: Fri, 20 Aug 1999 21:49:07 +0100

It has been suggested to me that members of the list might find this =

information useful. I will also post these details on my website on the =

same page as the announcement of the publication: =

http://homepages.primex.co.uk/~lesleyah/nwsflsh.htm

National Overviews

Introduction by the editors=20

Sexual cultures in Great Britain: Some persisting themes Lesley A. Hall

Religion and Sexual Culture in Ireland Tony Fahey

The Netherlands: Neither Prudish nor Hedonistic Harry Oosterhuis

Sex and Sexuality in France since 1800 Robert A. Nye

Italy: Sexuality, morality, and public authority: metaphors and =

interventionism

Bruno P. F. Wanrooij

Sexual Cultures in Germany and Austria, 1700-2000 Franz X. Eder

Spain: the political and social context of sex reform in the late =

nineteenth and early twentieth centuries Richard M. Cleminson & Efigenio =

Amez=FAa

Sexuality and politics in Russia (1700-2000) Igor S. Kon

Sexual Science and Sex Reform=20

Medical Science and the Modernisation of Sexuality Harry Oosterhuis

The World League for Sexual Reform: Some Possible Approaches Ralf Dose

Themes in sexuality

Introduction by the editors

Dangerous sexualities and their control=20

Sexual Education in Germany From the Eighteenth to the Twentieth =

Centuries Lutz D.H. Sauerteig

The Rise and Fall of European Syphilisation: The Debates on Human =

Experimentation and Vaccination of Syphilis, c. 1845-1870 Bertrand =

Taithe

The Culture of Compulsion: VD, Sexuality and the State in =

Twentieth-Century Scotlan d Roger Davidson

Stigmatised sexualities=20

Same-sex Relations Among Men in Europe, 1700-1990 Gert Hekma

Pornography in Western European Culture Dorelies Kraakman

National Responses to Sexual Perversions: The Case of Transvestism =

Angus McLaren

Keeping their fingers on the pulse: lesbian doctors in Britain, =

1890-1950 Emily Hamer

Sex and reproduction=20

Falling fertilities and changing sexualities in Europe since c.1850: a =

comparative survey of national demographic patterns Simon Szreter=20

Cultures of abortion in the Hague, early twentieth century Willem de =

Bl=E9court

'Didn't Stop to Think, I Just Didn't Want Another One': the Culture of =

Abortion in Inter-war South Wales Kate Fisher=20

French Catholics between Abstinence and 'Appeasement of Lust', 1930-1950 =

Anne-Marie Sohn

Lesley Hall

lesleyah@primex.co.uk

________________________________________________________________

From: "Lesley Hall" <lesleyah@primex.co.uk>

Subject: Technology of Orgasm

Date: Sun, 22 Aug 1999 12:28:46 +0100

Histsex:For historians of sexuality - http://homepages.primex.co.uk/~lesleyah

Well, I've now read this, and must say I find the case less than =

compelling. The case for hysteria as a historically continuous concept =

meaning the same thing over centuries has been convincingly =

deconstructed by Helen King, but one cannot blame Maines for relying on =

the works she did, long regarded as authoritative. A lot of the =

pre-C19th evidence is not contextualised by reference to the concept of =

drawing the womb, wandering round the body, back into its proper place =

(which, as far as I know, was the purpose of midwives massaging the =

female parts with aromatic oils) or to humoural theories of medicine and =

bodily balance. Thus in some cases (though I'm not an expert on the =

period) I think she's reading things that were meant to produce =

menstrual flow (stoppage of which was seen as dangerous damming up of =

bodily fluids) rather than any form of sexual discharge, as being about =

the latter.

The story also seems perhaps to be a particularly N. American one - =

I certainly don't think I've ever seen ads for similar vibratory =

massagers in UK women's periods of the turn of the century, although =

they do include ads for things like 'Widow Welch's Pills', an =

emmengogue/abortifacient, and Rendells Pessaries (contraceptives), and =

this would probably be comparable with other advertising of small =

consumer electrical items in the 2 countries. It might be interesting to =

look at when things like electric irons, vacuum cleaners, and =

whathaveyou were first advertised in the 2 countries, as a general =

exercise in the differential introduction of electrical technology into =

the household. (Though another factor here might be differences in =

availability of domestic servants?)

Hydropathy, massage, etc, were all supposed to have (and do have) =

benefits in toning up the system, relaxation, etc etc, distinct from =

producing orgasms: I have never seen any indication of the women in the =

whirlpool bath at the Sanctuary - Central London health spa - having =

orgasms, though another assumption of this book seems to be that women's =

orgasms are paroxysmal events, observable by bystanders - not =

necessarily!

The evidence for the sexualisation of the vibro-massager in the =

1920s seems thin - one stag film quoted from a source Maines herself =

regards as not entirely reliable. However, I suspect that there is =

another story about the technologisation of sex, which her gendered =

perspective leaves out. Somewhere in my own files I have xeroxes of =

various ads in 'The Pink 'Un' and similar raffish men's periodicals, =

1890s-1900s, for what I assume to be 'personal services' in the =

prostitution sense, but couched in terms of other bodily services such =

as massage and 'electrotherapy'. Were prostitutes using these devices =

_on men_? And would this be a reason for the growing perception of =

massagers as 'obscene objects' which could not be advertised in =

respectable periodicals.

There is interesting and suggestive material in this book but I =

don't think all the evidence adduced will bear the interpretation Maine =

wants it to. =20

Lesley Hall

lesleyah@primex.co.uk

website http://homepages.primex.co.uk/~lesleyah

________________________________________________________________

From: "Nicky Riding" <nicky@rfharchives.freeserve.co.uk>

Subject: Re: New members/Introductions/Research Interests register

Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 12:29:33 +0100

This came from the dodgy sexuality listserve! What do you think? I nearly

died laughing.

-----Original Message-----

From: Donna Larsen <ladydonna85@hotmail.com>

To: histsex@listbot.com <histsex@listbot.com>

Date: Monday, August 16, 1999 5:46 PM

Subject: Re: New members/Introductions/Research Interests register

>Histsex:For historians of sexuality -

http://homepages.primex.co.uk/~lesleyah

>I am a 35 year old returning student. At the moment I am working on my

>transferrer degree at Seattle Central community college. I plan to obtain

>my PH.D in Psychology and then specialize in education and research in the

>field of human sexuality. I have joined this list mainly to learn.

>I am also a lesbian leather woman. I have been a member of the Seattle

>Leather community for about 9 years now. I have been a professional

>Dominatrix. I did that for about 8 years and just recently decided to take

>a breather from that for a while. I am also a pagan whose sexuality and

>spirituality are very much connected.

>My wife Stephanie and I are in a Polyamoury relationship. This works

>extremely well for us. So that is Me in nutshell. I have been very much

>enjoying the information and conversations so far.

>_______________________________________________________________

Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 09:58:28 -0400

From: Sheila McManus <smcmanus@YorkU.CA>

Subject: Re: New members/Introductions/Research Interests register

Hi Nicky,

>This came from the dodgy sexuality listserve! What do you think? I nearly

>died laughing.

For the benefit of all of us on this listserve I was wondering if you could

explain what exactly it was that you found amusing about Ms. Larsen's

introduction? I for one am thrilled to know that the recipients of this

list represent as much human diversity as the topics we discuss, and that I

am not the only academic leatherdyke in the world.

Sheila McManus

Ph.D. Candidate, Department of History, York University

smcmanus@yorku.ca

________________________________________________________________

From: Kazetnik@aol.com

Message-ID: <c0f7fe70.24f2c116@aol.com>

Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 11:21:58 EDT

Subject: Re: New members/Introductions/Research Interests register

To Nicky Riding

Yes, why do you find this funny? I'm not a leatherdyke but I am a lesbian,

and that community is capable of containing a wide diversity of identities

and practices -- just like this list. A little less judging and a little more

listening might do some good.

Chris White

________________________________________________________________

Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 16:42:12 +0100

From: Stacy Gillis <stacy.gillis@ukonline.co.uk>

Subject: Re: New members

Whilst not condoning Nicky's comments, I would like to point out that

perhaps she felt that the introduction in question was misplaced. I was

under the impression that this list is concerned with a discussion of the

history and historiography of sexuality. Personal sexual orientation has

not played a part in other introductions and I, for one, would like to

think that I could partake of discussions here without my sexual

preference/personal history being a part of my research/comments. Couldn't

we just move on from this and not get bogged down?

Cheers,

Stacy

---------------------------

Stacy Gillis

stacy.gillis@ukonline.co.uk

http://web.ukonline.co.uk/stacy.gillis/index.htm

The wit of a graduate student is like champagne.

Canadian champagne.

-- Robertson Davies--

________________________________________________________________

From: "Lesley Hall" <lesleyah@primex.co.uk>

Subject: Re: New members

Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 19:44:49 +0100

My impression of Nicky's message was that it was posted in error to the

group.

>Personal sexual orientation has

>not played a part in other introductions and I, for one, would like to

>think that I could partake of discussions here without my sexual

>preference/personal history being a part of my research/comments.

I feel that whatever draws individuals to participate in this group is a

valid topic for their personal introduction. Certainly individuals have

indicated their sexual orientation where they feel this is of relevance.

Lesley Hall

lesleyah@primex.co.uk

website http://homepages.primex.co.uk/~lesleyah

________________________________________________________________ From: MZink@webtv.net (M Zink)

Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 14:59:50 -0400 (EDT)

Subject: Re: New members

hello,

i am a newbie but, i do have a question, i am in a wheelchair and i

would like to know how many ppl think that it would be hard for them to

have a sexual relationship with a person in a wheelchair, i have only

been in this dang thing since 96 and i really would like to know, not

because i want one myself but i do talk to ppl who are newly in

wheelchairs and i also just want to know?

________________________________________________________________

Subject: Inq. Henning Bech

Date: Mon, 23 Aug 1999 21:03:45 -0500

From: "Michael J. Murphy" <mjmurphy@artsci.wustl.edu>

I wonder if anyone on the list has read Henning Bech's book _When Men

Meet: Homosexuality and Modernity_ (U. Chicago, 1997)? Interested in

comments from other readers.

Best, cheers, tally ho and all that.

Michael J. Murphy, M.A.

Graduate Student, Dept. of Art History and Archaeology

Washington University, St. Louis

mjmurphy@artsci.wustl.edu

********************************

"And remember darling I don't work before 10:30 and never after 4:30 in

the afternoon."

-Norma Desmond to Cecil B. DeMille in _Sunset

Boulevard_

________________________________________________________________

Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 13:17:06 +1000

From: Hera Cook <dcoo8738@mail.usyd.edu.au>

Subject: dodgy sexuality

Hi,

Perhaps it would be useful for Nicky to read some theory relevant to the

groups which Donna Larsen belongs. Reading things other than cheap magazine

sensationalism might lead her to be less dismissive of other people's experience.

I am hesitant to suggest any but perhaps Donna might like to.

This might also lead her to be less certain of her own distance from 'the dodgy

sexuality listserve'. For example, harking back to the disucssion of The Sheik,

does she enjoy romances and the dominant/submissive roles enacted therein?

Could people also fill in the subject headings please, it is helpful when tracing

a discussion.

Hera

________________________________________________________________

Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 02:33:09 -0700

From: John Baeza <jbaeza@frontiernet.net>

Subject: Info on Albert Moll

Hello,

I am seeking information regarding Albert Moll's Hanbuch der

Sexualwissenschaften (or in english Handbook of Sexual Science ). I am

especially interested to know if this work has ever been translated into

english. I am particulalarly looking for Moll's thoughts on sadism and

what has been termed "necrosadism" in this work. I know the work has

been cited in several english language articles but I am searching for

the exact language from the book.

Any help would be appreciated.

John J. Baeza

________________________________________________________________ Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 13:47:42 +0200

From: Gert Hekma <hekma@pscw.uva.nl>

Subject: Re: Inq. Henning Bech

>I wonder if anyone on the list has read Henning Bech's book _When Men

>Meet: Homosexuality and Modernity_ (U. Chicago, 1997)? Interested in

>comments from other readers.

Michael J. Murphy, M.A.

>Graduate Student, Dept. of Art History and Archaeology

>Washington University, St. Louis

>mjmurphy@artsci.wustl.edu

It is a great book, I saw it already widely quoted, and it is positively

reviewed in a recent issue of Thamyris (journal for gay & lesbian, gender,

ethnic studies)

Gert Hekma

I edited with Franz Eder and Lesley Hall the two volumes of Sexual Cultures

in Europe, teach gay studies (in English!) at the University of Amsterdam

and do often "Book Ends" for Sexualities (mass-reviews of sexuality-books).

I am an editor of Thamyris.

My recent work is on contemporary sexual cultures, especially in the

Netherlands and Europe. See the website of gay and lesbian studies

www.pscw.uva.nl/gl for articles of mine on Amsterdam, the Netherlands and